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 Valefor.Terravcota
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By Valefor.Terravcota 2017-02-11 21:19:23
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IMO, the hardest part with Kin is people trying to go too fast and screwing it up by healing him. It was faster in the long run to go "slower" and be more mindful of not healing it for us. We did SAM THF GEOx2 BRD WHM, if it matters.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-11 21:20:20
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Kin is actually one of the more difficult bosses. It's annoying to do with any setup that has a single tank as you won't be able to avoid terror/5 second doom and you have to gate your damage. Gin/Fu/Kyou are all much easier than that.

Has anybody tried Trueflight on Kei post patch? We've tried the following setup twice.

RNG RNG GEO COR PLD SCH

Wildfire -> Apex Arrow -> Last Stand -> Jishnu's Radiance (4 step radiance)

We end up doing around okay damage with the skillchain although most of it is from Light/Radiance. I think it may resist physical damage. Even with Bolster Frailty, I don't think I had a Jishnu's Radiance break 15k. With Frailty/Chaos they do somewhere around 4~8k. We would have cleared it with this setup in around 25~30 minutes (very slow) but made some mistakes in the last 10% and wiped. I would rather not come out on mage jobs if it can be avoided.
 Odin.Llewelyn
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2017-02-11 21:29:50
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
I think it may resist physical damage.
My Fudos and auto-attacks do normal damage on Kin.

Edit: Nvm, didn't catch you questioning on Kei. Looking through my logs, I do appear to do about half damage on Kei.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-02-11 21:51:54
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Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Kin is actually one of the more difficult bosses. It's annoying to do with any setup that has a single tank as you won't be able to avoid terror/5 second doom and you have to gate your damage. Gin/Fu/Kyou are all much easier than that.
The Terror isn't too much an issue as long as you know how to deal with it.

Quote:
[21:42:19]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[21:42:20]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:11:38]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:11:40]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:13:04]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:13:05]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:28:15]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:28:16]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. Martel is terror.
[01:08:33]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:08:33]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:11:08]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:11:09]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:16:19]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:16:20]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:02:08]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:02:09]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:07:10]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:07:11]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[00:32:18]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[00:32:19]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:13:59]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:14:00]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[01:24:52]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:24:53]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[00:57:21]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[00:57:22]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. Martel is terror.
[01:05:15]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[01:05:15]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[23:34:10]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[23:34:10]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. No effect on Martel.
[23:40:18]Kin readies Eleventh Dimension.
[23:40:18]Kin uses Eleventh Dimension. Martel is terror.
I left the few times in landed in there to make it a fair sample. Not immune, but very very resistant.

Founder's Greaves+Sagasinger. This sample isn't larger enough for me to try to get a % value, and I think I may not have had Sagasinger on for one or two of those. But it's very high. Now we just need an ilvl remake of sagasinger.

But well, I'm the tank not the DD, I'll let the DD do the DPS while I'm busy not getting terrored. An if he pulls hate, Cover is glorious in omen. First time it's been really useful in years.

The main issue with this method is that PLD is the only tank that can wear Founder's or Sagasinger. SE kinda screwed the rest on that count.

Also, any setup with a good WHM, and a tank that has cursna received gear has little to fear from doom. 5 count or not. I've yet to die from doom on Kin. Not that it was landing much pre-update. That part may have changed now though.
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By Verda 2017-02-11 21:58:26
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My favorite Kin setup I've done successfully quite a few times now:

RUN RNG RNG COR GEO SCH

One RNG needs a good trueflight set the other RNG and COR a good last stand set.

Buffs:
SAM Roll Chaos Roll
Dia IV and Abrasion Bolt (Equates to 40.5% def down, non-idris blaze of glory frailty is 42.5%)
Indi-Focus Geo-Malaise
Aurorastorm II on TF ranger
Gambit/Rayke as available


Kin almost always alternates Casting -> TP move -> Casting -> TP Move

RNG1 and COR Last Stand at the same time during Casting to avoid skillchaining
TF ranger closes Trueflight when casting ends

You'll do about 60k+ dmg with close and skillchain most the time, and it's consistent and you never heal it. Bonus is skillchains actually get to do damage if you use magical WS on Kin using this setup so it's a pretty easy win.

As far as target, it's really hard to keep hate off the trueflight ranger as is, so when target comes up RUN just stops using enmity abilities till I pull hate (usually next time I WS sometimes 2-3 WS).

Fenrir.Snaps said: »
Has anybody tried Trueflight on Kei post patch? We've tried the following setup twice.
Not yet, but I haven't had issue using it on midbosses or Kin or any other mobs I used it on since the patch so it should be fine.
 Bahamut.Alexcennah
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By Bahamut.Alexcennah 2017-02-11 22:25:15
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Verda said: »
As far as target, it's really hard to keep hate off the trueflight ranger as is, so when target comes up RUN just stops using enmity abilities till I pull hate (usually next time I WS sometimes 2-3 WS).
In fact I only use my hate tools just enough to keep Kin's attention. A Flash/Foil/Stun at the beginning and then recast again only when/if I lose hate. This way it's much easier for someone else grab him after Target.
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By Verda 2017-02-11 22:28:13
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Ah, see this is why you are the pro RUN ;p
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-11 22:53:34
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WAR can also wear Founder's Greaves and Sagasinger (I've suggested it but our WAR lacks the sword so that's not happening.) We have also done it a few times using COR RNG RNG GEO SCH WAR but all said and done it's still much more difficult that way than Gin/Kyou/Fu.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-02-11 23:18:21
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Kin is piss easy. We go with

RUN/DRK Tank
WAR (generic DD)
DRK
BRD
GEO
WHM

The RUN holds hate for awhile but eventually the DD's will pull hate with high damage Reso's going off every time it casts a spell. The idea is that we kinda share hate after awhile so that once Target happens it's looking at someone else within seconds and therefor we never have to deal with eleventh dimension.

Really the trick to Kin is to just WS whenever it casts a spell and hold TP otherwise.
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 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-11 23:44:10
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Our last two Kin runs have been BST, WAR, SAM, GEO, BRD, WHM and take less than 5 minutes. Not saying it's hard just pointing out that claiming Kin is the easiest Omen boss is an overstatement.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-02-12 00:03:50
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So your doing the worst thing possible, mixing strategies and wonder why it seems hard...

Each of these is designed to be easier towards a specific job type, though not entirely impossible for alternate setups. Kin/Gin/Kyou are more melee / ranged orientated while Fu revolves around pet jobs and Kei is for magic.

If your using melee then focus on melee buffs and abilities. If your focusing on ranged then focus on ranged buffs, if using pets then focus on pets and magic then focus on magic. Mixing them is terribad because your forced to spread your buffs around or someone ends up gimped in damage and another person mediocre.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-12 01:15:07
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Asura.Saevel said: »
So your doing the worst thing possible, mixing strategies and wonder why it seems hard...

Each of these is designed to be easier towards a specific job type, though not entirely impossible for alternate setups. Kin/Gin/Kyou are more melee / ranged orientated while Fu revolves around pet jobs and Kei is for magic.

If your using melee then focus on melee buffs and abilities. If your focusing on ranged then focus on ranged buffs, if using pets then focus on pets and magic then focus on magic. Mixing them is terribad because your forced to spread your buffs around or someone ends up gimped in damage and another person mediocre.

Our last Kin fight with that setup took just over 5 minutes. I wouldn't call that hard. You're boss setup generalizations are also totally wrong. Our average clear time on Fu is around 3 minutes with no specific setup in particular. I've also cleared Gin in 3 minutes with just four players.

Again, I'm not saying Kin is hard, just that it's not the easiest Omen boss.
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By Verda 2017-02-12 08:31:54
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I've done DD setups for Kin, they have mixed success. The worst case one was one that took 25 mins and still timed out due to DD skillchaining when it casts too often, or dying to AoE. And making up for lost time is time consuming because you have to hurry up and wait for it to cast. I did have some good DD wins too, but I just find it really depends not only on the DD but how well they will work together where as it's pretty hard to mess up the RNG strat. The best DD win I had was actually NIN spamming blade:ten when it casts and when it's not doing tp moves.

I like the RNG strat I posted most because you're doing damage at all points of the fight, and skillchain damage works for it unlike any DD setup without magical ws.

Also when I do Kei as TF RNG, every tank I've ever taken constantly loses hate to the RNG, but it's still fast enough and safe enough that it's my preferred setup. So far every end omen boss works really well with trueflight ranger, and SMN as well. Gin when it changes to light absorb, I do have to use physical WS though, but still works for a large part of the fight.
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 Asura.Yankke
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By Asura.Yankke 2017-02-12 09:06:50
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hey!!! i don't know if this was asked before but if u choose to skip Boss in 3rd floor u can't do Boss on 5th floor?

so u get 10 objective in floor 3 and 5? farm cards any job!?
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-12 18:31:13
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I did some testing today to try and gauge whether or not it would be worth the effort to improve the autora addon I'm working on. I got some weird results.

I used 70(71)0 Shapshot, 34 Velocity Shot, and some amount of Rapid Shot (56 assuming Rapid Shot II gives 30%).

Code
Weapon		Delay	Delta
Atalanta	130 	1.967172
Shortbow	360	2.276916
Self Bow	450	2.365931
Longbow		540	2.438667
Shigeto Bow	600	2.588359
Musketoon	600	2.617526

The delta is the time between each incoming ranged attack start packet over the course of at least 200 ranged attacks. I used Comeatmebro's method of injecting a ranged attack packet on every outgoing UDP chunk. You shouldn't be able to shoot faster than this but it comes with the expense of not being able to use an idle set. Musketoon was included to verify that ammo delay doesn't affect anything (and it appears that it does not.)

The first thing I noticed is that the delta for the lower delay weapons is lower than anticipated. Assuming the model delta = delay * A + B where A is the mean reduction from Snapshot/Velocity Shot/Rapid Shot and applying linear regression to all of the data except Musketoon and yields A = 0.001257002 and B = 1.807010262 with R^2 = 0.993407499 (please someone double check this.) This would imply that the ranged cool down is actually 1.8 seconds. The percent error from A using Verda's model is 0.69%.

It would be nice if someone else could repeat this as it seems like a large detriment to lower delay weapons. If you have a good preshot set, the overwhelming majority of the resulting delay is not from the weapon itself. There may have been instrumentation error on my part as the windower packets API is a black box to me (I don't have hook access so I don't know what actually happens to the injected packets.) I did get the "You must wait longer to perform that action" packets though (but not as many as I was expecting) so it is probably a valid experiment. The data has a smooth range of deltas for the various delays so there's that too.

In regards to how this stacks up to the addon I'm working on (which doesn't use Comeatmebro's method, it's more vanilla than that), here's the data I have for the two weapons I tried.

Code
Weapon		Delay	Addon		Injected	Gain
Atalanta	130	2.045053	1.967172	3.96%
Shigeto Bow	600	2.668045	2.588359	3.07%

The gains are much smaller than I thought, which is unexpected and makes me question the results. I'll probably stick with my method as I think the value of an idle set is greater than a 3~4% marginal gain in shooting speed.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-02-12 18:36:40
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the 'value of an idle set' is only going to be the same 3-4% as the gain since you're still wearing shooting gear during the shot, unless i misunderstood something, which seems like pretty near no value

interesting test though, 1.8s cooldown is much higher than i would've expected
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-12 18:41:10
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I mean the value in being able to idle in PDT (injecting on every UDP packet means you can't, you're always in your midshot.) Please feel free to repeat the experiment, I was also surprised at 1.8 seconds and I'm afraid I may have done something wrong.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-12 18:59:36
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Also, it's probably worth stating that the cool down the server enforces is probably less than 1.8 seconds and that there is some artifacting due to the client only sending a UDP packet every elapsed .4 seconds. For modeling purposes though 1.8 should be valid as an ideal.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-02-12 20:49:14
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My point was that the period you're idling is extremely small, it's not providing much of any benefit.
 Siren.Dilandu
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By Siren.Dilandu 2017-02-12 21:06:26
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Asura.Yankke said: »
hey!!! i don't know if this was asked before but if u choose to skip Boss in 3rd floor u can't do Boss on 5th floor?

so u get 10 objective in floor 3 and 5? farm cards any job!?

No boss if you skip the sub boss. 10 objectives on floor 4. There is no floor 3 or 5.

I got 6 cards today on my Sam and Drk mules. Completed 2/3 objectives on floors 1,2, and 7/10 on floor 4. Floor 1 was specific mob but I ended up killing all of them since it was the last mob that opened the portal. Floor 2 was kill all. Floor 4 was kill all transcended mobs. I cleared out most of floor 4 for merits and JP after doing all the objectives.

My Blu mules have been getting only 3 cards per run.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-02-12 21:09:22
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also, re: repeating the experiment

what target/setup did you use to make it easy? ceizak uragnite? Not opposed to doing another test if it can be easily automated.
 Fenrir.Snaps
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-02-12 23:02:28
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
also, re: repeating the experiment

what target/setup did you use to make it easy? ceizak uragnite? Not opposed to doing another test if it can be easily automated.

I used Jaochim for Poisona, one mage to cast Flurry every 90 seconds, and did uraganites basically afk'd while collecting data. Also gonna try and move all of these posts over to the ranged attack testing thread where I intended to put them in the first place.
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By Asura.Leonlionheart 2017-02-13 03:18:49
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Asura.Saevel said: »
RUN/DRK Tank
WAR (generic DD)
DRK
BRD
GEO
WHM

Verda said: »
I've done DD setups for Kin, they have mixed success. The worst case one was one that took 25 mins and still timed out due to DD skillchaining when it casts too often, or dying to AoE. And making up for lost time is time consuming because you have to hurry up and wait for it to cast. I did have some good DD wins too, but I just find it really depends not only on the DD but how well they will work together where as it's pretty hard to mess up the RNG strat. The best DD win I had was actually NIN spamming blade:ten when it casts and when it's not doing tp moves.

I like the RNG strat I posted most because you're doing damage at all points of the fight, and skillchain damage works for it unlike any DD setup without magical ws.

Also when I do Kei as TF RNG, every tank I've ever taken constantly loses hate to the RNG, but it's still fast enough and safe enough that it's my preferred setup. So far every end omen boss works really well with trueflight ranger, and SMN as well. Gin when it changes to light absorb, I do have to use physical WS though, but still works for a large part of the fight.

I think the key to Kin here, and why WAR and DRK work particularly well together on Kin, is skill chain damage. For instance using BLU over DRK or WAR means making Distortion with reso -> cdc which makes the fight significantly longer meaning more interferences and more dooms. So having WAR WAR or WAR DRK or DRK DRK for DDs makes a big difference, or just even using non skillchaining ws's.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-02-13 05:31:48
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I think the key to Kin is...smart DD's. I've done it THF+COR, and recently been doing it RUN+COR. Had no issues, killed fast though final 25% takes a bit longer because of constant tp spam, not even close to timing out at any point.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-02-13 10:24:27
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Asura.Leonlionheart said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
RUN/DRK Tank
WAR (generic DD)
DRK
BRD
GEO
WHM

Verda said: »
I've done DD setups for Kin, they have mixed success. The worst case one was one that took 25 mins and still timed out due to DD skillchaining when it casts too often, or dying to AoE. And making up for lost time is time consuming because you have to hurry up and wait for it to cast. I did have some good DD wins too, but I just find it really depends not only on the DD but how well they will work together where as it's pretty hard to mess up the RNG strat. The best DD win I had was actually NIN spamming blade:ten when it casts and when it's not doing tp moves.

I like the RNG strat I posted most because you're doing damage at all points of the fight, and skillchain damage works for it unlike any DD setup without magical ws.

Also when I do Kei as TF RNG, every tank I've ever taken constantly loses hate to the RNG, but it's still fast enough and safe enough that it's my preferred setup. So far every end omen boss works really well with trueflight ranger, and SMN as well. Gin when it changes to light absorb, I do have to use physical WS though, but still works for a large part of the fight.

I think the key to Kin here, and why WAR and DRK work particularly well together on Kin, is skill chain damage. For instance using BLU over DRK or WAR means making Distortion with reso -> cdc which makes the fight significantly longer meaning more interferences and more dooms. So having WAR WAR or WAR DRK or DRK DRK for DDs makes a big difference, or just even using non skillchaining ws's.

The BLU's were stupid, plain and simple.

There is a high damage WS that BLU has, it's extremely powerful because it has awesome TP scaling so holding TP won't cause much DPS loss. That WS also doesn't SC with itself or anything else in the fragmentation category. It's *** Savage Blade.

People need to wake up and think about these things, both DD's need to find a WS that they can do together that won't SC or time their WS's so they happen simultaneously.
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 Asura.Azagarth
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-02-13 10:43:38
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I was with a very good geared blu, tiz/alamce using expiacion/savage (expi will sc, so he used it wisely only at 3k tp for his AM). I parsed 53% he did 37% and the rng made up the rest with run tank. This is pretty consistent most runs too. Drk is just crazy useful on the nm, with the killer effects/arcane circle/arcane crest, I just cant envision other dds being much more useful.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-02-13 12:05:12
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You have a ranger parsing less than 10%? Why are they in your group?
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-02-13 12:34:15
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At this point, Fu/Kin/Gin are pretty easy and can be steamrolled with just about any above average DD. I don't think it's exclusive to any best jobs in particular. 3f are still more dangerous than the damn 5Fs.
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By Asura.Frod 2017-02-13 13:09:24
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
At this point, Fu/Kin/Gin are pretty easy and can be steamrolled with just about any above average DD. I don't think it's exclusive to any best jobs in particular. 3f are still more dangerous than the damn 5Fs.
Agreed. Midbosses can be a bigger ***than the end boss, mostly just view sync guy, occasionally pain sync. My group usually uses 1hrs on mid, my conduit can usually trounce them unless i get an early pain sync or an unresisted view/carousel. Af/ac'd & gob'd conduit with bolstered frailty and i'm hitting for between 60k and 99k with volt/chaotic strike.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-02-13 13:11:10
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
At this point, Fu/Kin/Gin are pretty easy and can be steamrolled with just about any above average DD. I don't think it's exclusive to any best jobs in particular. 3f are still more dangerous than the damn 5Fs.

How is Kyou not the same? Just have your tank die every Bravado and continue as normal.

Kei is the only one that's a true change of pace from my experience as he's clearly designed around a manaburn strategy.

None of the 3rd floor bosses are difficult, they're just easier to *** up. Gorger's Spirit Absorption can still destroy things though MDB seems to reduce it but I've been burning it down so quick lately it doesn't really get as much opportunity to do hate resets and jump to different target. Pain Sync is still dangerous but less frequent so a tad easier to handle and Craver is never an issue with Wilt.
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