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So what is up with the anti-pup movement?
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:15:52
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Puppetmaster is not one of those jobs that u can just reserch info, burn it in abyssea and expect to play it fine. That's why there are so many pups that suxs out there. That's my point. besides skilling up your automaton, you really can just pick it up and play like any other job.
I don't a gree with that, u have to know the combinations of head and frames, u have to know the attachemnts and how they work, how to combine them and make maneuvors to trigger the puppets AI and then apply it on the different situations. Is not a job that goes engage, get TP and then hit WS. You can look up everything you need to know about attachments and frames.
Ok, look up how u can make your puppet cast silence as first enfeble when fighting mobs that cast magic or look for how u can make it cast paralysis enfeble first when fighting mobs with high att speed etc.
Just look at the priority based on maneuvers.
Maybe I will level PUP tomorrow after all!
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 05:19:05
each maneuver is tied to certain debuffs. have it active first and it will force cast that debuff. But this is subject to checks. You won't silence ninjas or brds, because they have no mp. It just won't work.
Well yes I knew this but my pup sometimes casts silence on monsters that doesn't even use magic when I have wind maneuver up. I thought there was some trick that will make it only cast if the monster is a caster...
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By Siren.Sugarpanda 2012-05-11 05:20:52
Ok Austar, what if you also need to heal and recover MP :o
You already have ice and wind maneuver up.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 05:21:55
Heal you or the auto?
Shiva.Damonz
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By Shiva.Damonz 2012-05-11 05:22:32
each maneuver is tied to certain debuffs. have it active first and it will force cast that debuff. But this is subject to checks. You won't silence ninjas or brds, because they have no mp. It just won't work.
Well yes I knew this but my pup sometimes casts silence on monsters that doesn't even use magic when I have wind maneuver up. I thought there was some trick that will make it only cast if the monster is a caster...
Stop doing that jobs take years to master and if you didn't lvl them the old way you will never be able to play them as good as people that did.
 Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 05:24:37
THis is getting off the point. THis thread was to point out that PUPs were not being invited to VW cause ppl think they won't perform good. I am not saying PUP is the top DD just because it does great dmg, I am saying it does great dmg so there is no point in not inviting it to VW. This is not a job vs. job thing, is a matter of considering PUP to join VW runs like any other job cause it can bring good stuff to it and not just take the space for some other ukon war or vere mnk.
Consider the freakin job, ppl have fun playing it and they want to play it on VW too cause they know it can do good.
Shiva.Damonz
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By Shiva.Damonz 2012-05-11 05:30:12
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »THis is getting off the point. THis thread was to point out that PUPs were not being invited to VW cause ppl think they won't perform good. I am not saying PUP is the top DD just because it does great dmg, I am saying it does great dmg so there is no point in not inviting it to VW. This is not a job vs. job thing, is a matter of consdering PUP to join VW runs like any other job cause it can bring good stuff to it and not just take the space for some other ukon war or vere mnk.
Consider the freakin job, ppl have fun playing it and they want to play it on VW too cause they know it can do good. This was addressed on page 3 maybe you missed it Ragnarok.Jessikah said: »I always thought it was mostly an ignorance thing. No one wants a Puppetmaster because they don't know how it works or what it's truly capable of. I've seen a couple of really good Puppetmasters over the years. But they're fewer and farther between than every other job out there.
And over the years, people have really started to build on the "lolPUP" mentality. Even Square-Enix seems to be in on it; just look at the job emote they gave it. The mage equipment they keep giving it doesn't help either.
Bottom line: People are just going to invite jobs they're more familiar with in any situation. And very, very few people are actually familar with Puppetmaster.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:43:45
Ok Austar, what if you also need to heal and recover MP :o
You already have ice and wind maneuver up.
Auto at full HP? Deactivate, activate, light maneuver, deply.
If not, and my HP is higher than Auto's max, Role Reversal > Deactivate > Activate > Light Maneuver > Deploy.
Or for a third option...
Deactivate --> Deus Ex Automata --> Light Maneuver --> Deploy ---> Repair ---> Deactivate @ full HP --> Activate.
PUP 13 folks.
Because understanding job mechanics is hard.
[+]
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 05:46:56
Ok Austar, what if you also need to heal and recover MP :o
You already have ice and wind maneuver up.
Auto at full HP? Deactivate, activate, light maneuver, deply.
If not, and my HP is higher than Auto's max, Role Reversal > Deactivate > Activate > Light Maneuver > Deploy.
Or for a third option...
Deactivate --> Deus Ex Automata --> Light Maneuver --> Deploy ---> Repair ---> Deactivate @ full HP --> Activate.
PUP 13 folks.
Because understanding job mechanics is hard.
or if not in a hurry do a dark maneuvor to activate Economizer and refresh... :/ Not always have max hp or need to sacrifice the puppet... But guess that something u learn in the practice before the DEA was added.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 05:48:38
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Ok Austar, what if you also need to heal and recover MP :o
You already have ice and wind maneuver up.
Auto at full HP? Deactivate, activate, light maneuver, deply.
If not, and my HP is higher than Auto's max, Role Reversal > Deactivate > Activate > Light Maneuver > Deploy.
Or for a third option...
Deactivate --> Deus Ex Automata --> Light Maneuver --> Deploy ---> Repair ---> Deactivate @ full HP --> Activate.
PUP 13 folks.
Because understanding job mechanics is hard.
or if not in a hurry do a dark maneuvor to activate Economizer and refresh... :/ Not always have max hp or need to sacrifice the puppet... But guess that something u learn in the practice before the DEA was added. If you need cures and no MP, I'd say you're in a hurry.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:52:10
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW."
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:54:59
Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad?
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 05:56:31
Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:56:53
To further emphasize the seriousness of my statements:
Quote: Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "DNC doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "DNC is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a DNC today."
This fits for my one-true-love, too, save loldyna.
Shiva.Damonz
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By Shiva.Damonz 2012-05-11 05:57:05
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW." In those peoples defense, there is something to be said to reflex actions on jobs you are familiar with as opposed to having to think and try and remember what things do, or where you put that macro. But that's something you can get in a few days (weeks tops), and not any different than playing a job you lvled years ago but rarely play anymore.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 05:58:08
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation.
Yes, I level jobs just to troll people. Okay.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 05:59:37
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it.
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By Siren.Sugarpanda 2012-05-11 06:01:11
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW."
I still think that though, maybe you are able to find all the little details you need to excel in a job but I doubt most people are.
I can honestly say that I have read all the pages there is about pup and played it before abyssea and hands up I can say that I don't know how to excel on pup yet.
Things that you didnt consider before always comes up and only practise makes you perfect.
What comes to VW, I dont even offer my PUP for VW yet as I know I wouldn't know where to even begin with it but if I was in a point where I was confident that I knew the job inside and out I would bring pup out to all events.
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 06:01:40
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 06:04:27
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW."
I still think that though, maybe you are able to find all the little details you need to excel in a job but I doubt most people are.
I can honestly say that I have read all the pages there is about pup and played it before abyssea and hands up I can say that I don't know how to excel on pup yet.
Things that you didnt consider before always comes up and only practise makes you perfect.
What comes to VW, I dont even offer my PUP for VW yet as I know I wouldn't know where to even begin with it but if I was in a point where I was confident that I knew the job inside and out I would bring pup out to all events.
You've sort of just rephrased what I've said like 50 times (exaggerating, it's 2 or 3)
Yes, PUP can perform well (but not as good as a standard DD), but only in the hands of an exceptionally-geared, and very skilled player.
How willing are you to bet that that random PUP you don't know is 95th percentile or higher and will perform beyond the level of dead weight?
For most (reasonable) people, the answer is not very.
[+]
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 06:05:30
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food.
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By Siren.Sugarpanda 2012-05-11 06:07:17
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW." I still think that though, maybe you are able to find all the little details you need to excel in a job but I doubt most people are. I can honestly say that I have read all the pages there is about pup and played it before abyssea and hands up I can say that I don't know how to excel on pup yet. Things that you didnt consider before always comes up and only practise makes you perfect. What comes to VW, I dont even offer my PUP for VW yet as I know I wouldn't know where to even begin with it but if I was in a point where I was confident that I knew the job inside and out I would bring pup out to all events. You've sort of just rephrased what I've said like 50 times (exaggerating, it's 2 or 3) Yes, PUP can perform well (but not as good as a standard DD), but only in the hands of an exceptionally-geared, and very skilled player. How willing are you to bet that that random PUP you don't know is 95th percentile or higher and will perform beyond the level of dead weight? For most (reasonable) people, the answer is not very.
LOL I like the capitals - makes me understand it better :P
And this brings me down to the point that majority of the people wouldn't know which one is head and which one is legs by just reading stuff up online :)
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 06:08:21
I don't invite those people to my alliances :(
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 06:08:39
Anyway, this is why we make fun of people when they say "You don't have this job levelled SO YOU DON'T KNOW." I still think that though, maybe you are able to find all the little details you need to excel in a job but I doubt most people are. I can honestly say that I have read all the pages there is about pup and played it before abyssea and hands up I can say that I don't know how to excel on pup yet. Things that you didnt consider before always comes up and only practise makes you perfect. What comes to VW, I dont even offer my PUP for VW yet as I know I wouldn't know where to even begin with it but if I was in a point where I was confident that I knew the job inside and out I would bring pup out to all events. You've sort of just rephrased what I've said like 50 times (exaggerating, it's 2 or 3) Yes, PUP can perform well (but not as good as a standard DD), but only in the hands of an exceptionally-geared, and very skilled player. How willing are you to bet that that random PUP you don't know is 95th percentile or higher and will perform beyond the level of dead weight? For most (reasonable) people, the answer is not very.
LOL I like the capitals - makes me understand it better :P
And this brings me down to the point that majority of the people wouldn't know which one is head and which one is legs by just reading stuff up online :) And those people are terrible at any job, not just PUP.
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 06:08:42
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food. You forgetting my puppet can heal as good as any WHM in th alliance doing cure VI and removing enfebles wile I focus on DD and procs. sadly it will heal only ppl in the party, not alliance.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 06:09:17
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food. You forgetting my puppet can heal as good as any WHM in th alliance doing cure VI and removing enfebles wile I focus on DD and procs. sadly it will heal only ppl in the party, not alliance.
But your RNG puppet was the only reason you won the parse. If I need cures, I'll invite a WHM or a SCH.
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 06:11:26
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food. You forgetting my puppet can heal as good as any WHM in th alliance doing cure VI and removing enfebles wile I focus on DD and procs. sadly it will heal only ppl in the party, not alliance.
But your RNG puppet was the only reason you won the parse. If I need cures, I'll invite a WHM or a SCH. RNG puppet is not always best for all VW mobs ince it's def sux.
And why just get another WHM or SCH when u can have both dmg and healing in the same member slot? This works awesome with high dmg aoe mobs.
Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-05-11 06:11:32
That's right, I'm nice enough to credit your pet in your %!
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2012-05-11 06:11:33
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food. You forgetting my puppet can heal as good as any WHM in th alliance doing cure VI and removing enfebles wile I focus on DD and procs. sadly it will heal only ppl in the party, not alliance. Sorry, but having a cure timer of ~15 seconds isn't going to compete with a WHM healing.
Bismarck.Jonadriel
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By Bismarck.Jonadriel 2012-05-11 06:13:56
Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Bismarck.Jonadriel said: »Also anyway, people need to stop thinking that when one says "PUP doesn't really fit well with current content" that we're saying that "PUP is inherently a bad job."
It isn't, there just isn't any content that dictates "Hell, I wish I had brought a PUP today."
You can ask Austar or Minjo, I've been threatening to level PUP for over 24 hours. Why would I want to level it if I thought it were bad? Just to troll with ppl. U already have that reputation. He really has been wanting to level it. Good for him. I bet he will have lots of fun in it. Maybe as much as wanting to take it to VW too or actully get to understand it enough ( I said understand it, not just know how it works) as to allow or want to have a PUP in his shouts.
I've taken you on PUP over other people before, just because I know Kenkonken is ridiculously OP and you can do well versus standard VW WARs who aren't even eating food. You forgetting my puppet can heal as good as any WHM in th alliance doing cure VI and removing enfebles wile I focus on DD and procs. sadly it will heal only ppl in the party, not alliance. Sorry, but having a cure timer of ~15 seconds isn't going to compete with a WHM healing. True, but sometimes WHMs don't heal that much and WHMs won't do dmg as same time as healing. Also WHM puppet have a faster response than a WHM since as soon as the dmg is taken, a second later is casting either the magic to remove the enfeble or the cure VI.
I saw a yell in jeuno about hahava {looking for members.}. So I shoot the guy a tell, "Can I go pup?". "No." "Come something that procs or don't come at all." he tells me. Da hell....? Ok I understand pup isn't the top tier DD. I happen to have a decently geared pup for pummel (I'm gonna eventually build veres but atm dynamis and farmig my relic for sam is taking most of my time). It's not like my damage is BAD. I've seen plenty of other DDs that would get wrecked in a parse by my pup. Also, last I checked, pup has every h2h but Asuran Fists, AND the puppet themselves contain about 12 or so unique procs... So where does this person's logic fall under? It has plenty of procs and it can DD. I know pup =/= mnk, but can all of these stuck up people get over themselves already? kthx
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