"BLM Frame Can't Out Nuke A Real BLM"

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"BLM frame can't out nuke a real BLM"
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 Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 18:59:06
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
For the sake of comparison,

Enmity Douse gives an indiscriminate 800/sec while operating under the ~8000 damage it takes for a BLM to cap CE, and the ~2000 damage it takes to cap VE. Ignoring ED, that means that, while maintaining proper positioning, you're afforded an ~8000 damage window in which you absolutely will not take hate off of a tank with expectant CE/VE levels. After that point, you're given a window of ~1000/minute while not drawing attention. ED is going to reset both of these windows, essentially handing you an additional window to deal that same 8000 damage before you reenter the 1000/min threshold(which numerically means 1800/min total).

A SCH starts off with the same initial boundary, and ends up adhering to the same 1000/min rule thereafter. Fully merited Equanimity, which can be used roughly 6 times every 10 minutes(lined up with ED for ease of comparison), is going to reduce 6 of your spells by ~50% every 10 minutes. I say about 50% because of the multiplicative interaction with equipment/status enmity reduction. Assuming your damage is roughly 1000/spell(again, for simplicity), that's 6000 damage every 10 minutes that's being reduced. 6000 damage is going to result in ~7500 CE, so reduce that by half, and you've got your additional threshold for damage/minute, which in this case, in total, would be 1375/min.
even without me pointing out to stop bringing up that terrible ability, sch has pax which is an additional -10 enmity, as well as af3 body proc which gives you the small chance of drawing 0 enmity, it bumps it up further


Quote:
Before helices are considered, BLM deals roughly 425 DPM more than SCH, which is a fairly large advantage.

Things to note:

* While not often practiced, it is most efficient to cast offensive spells in -50 enmity. That means Equanimity is half as effective(CE(0.50 x 0.50), while ED remains the same.

* Helices bring additional damage to the table if viable, but it isn't likely going to tip the scales that greatly.
helix will generate anywhere between 700-1800 dmg a minute, keep that in mind

Quote:
* BLM is still significantly better for procs.
always the winning argument, stupid proc system is stupid

Quote:
* BLM has stun, which is always useful, while SCH's ability to switch to a healing role not only requires that they temporarily/indefinitely stop dealing damage, but that they further increase their enmity.
sch can sub blm for stun detail and make better use of it IIRC, dont quote me on it, i have to look into it again.

as for sch's healing role i'd be inclined to believe that sch's white side will currently draw more hate than it's black side. and you can still cast helices in light arts but they will be half as productive, so yes it will lower their damage out put, but you dont necessarily need to get into light arts to cure.
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:01:13
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Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
i do, 48 secs of stratagems recharges <3, i dont even use equanimity was just putting that to compare it vs Enmity Douse
orz
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By Asura.Jadecc 2011-09-30 19:02:30
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Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
Sylph.Liltrouble said: »
I know several people that enjoy playing pup. I imagine it's a fun job. For them. To each their own. But for a Pup to insist they can out-nuke a pro Blm is foolhardy, at best. It's like a Sch claiming they can out heal a career Whm. Or, a Pup, making the same claim.

Wish people would give PUP an try and learn how the job works rather than popping in like this. (And before anyone jumps on me for saying this without having BLM leveled, my second account is BLM95. Only thing "bad" about it would be I still have moldy/hecate instead of Novio/Hecate.)

Also, no PUP would make that WHM claim btw since the AI system makes it so -na comes before Cures. And the time between cures for a party set up IT~NM would be murder (Unless it's like a duo of nin + pup >.>)

Your automaton would only cast -na on party members if you have a water meneuver up, as long as you yourself do not get enfeebled, you can expect your automaton (with light maneuvers up) to cure whoever has the least % hp or at least regen the person with hate, sub sch to cure 3 spam in between cure 6s and pup makes a decent healer, however much less reliable than a whm obviously.
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By Lakshmi.Emanuelle 2011-09-30 19:04:05
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
For the sake of comparison,

Enmity Douse gives an indiscriminate 800/sec while operating under the ~8000 damage it takes for a BLM to cap CE, and the ~2000 damage it takes to cap VE. Ignoring ED, that means that, while maintaining proper positioning, you're afforded an ~8000 damage window in which you absolutely will not take hate off of a tank with expectant CE/VE levels. After that point, you're given a window of ~1000/minute while not drawing attention. ED is going to reset both of these windows, essentially handing you an additional window to deal that same 8000 damage before you reenter the 1000/min threshold(which numerically means 1800/min total).

A SCH starts off with the same initial boundary, and ends up adhering to the same 1000/min rule thereafter. Fully merited Equanimity, which can be used roughly 6 times every 10 minutes(lined up with ED for ease of comparison), is going to reduce 6 of your spells by ~50% every 10 minutes. I say about 50% because of the multiplicative interaction with equipment/status enmity reduction. Assuming your damage is roughly 1000/spell(again, for simplicity), that's 6000 damage every 10 minutes that's being reduced. 6000 damage is going to result in ~7500 CE, so reduce that by half, and you've got your additional threshold for damage/minute, which in this case, in total, would be 1375/min.

Before helices are considered, BLM deals roughly 425 DPM more than SCH, which is a fairly large advantage.

Things to note:

* While not often practiced, it is most efficient to cast offensive spells in -50 enmity. That means Equanimity is half as effective(CE(0.50 x 0.50), while ED remains the same.

* Helices bring additional damage to the table if viable, but it isn't likely going to tip the scales that greatly.

* BLM is still significantly better for procs.

* BLM has stun, which is always useful, while SCH's ability to switch to a healing role not only requires that they temporarily/indefinitely stop dealing damage, but that they further increase their enmity.

Edit: And just for clarity, this is less about who's a better long-term DD, and much more about the viability of Equanimity. I'd say that if you're one of those people who plays a so-so job in serious situations just because they enjoy it, and you're interested in bringing the best performance out of it, its not a bad thing to merit. If you find yourself in a situation where you're constantly using Enlightenment, I suppose it has merit, but I don't necessarily feel as if its that defensively beneficial.

Edit2.0: Last bit! Promise! I understand the appeal of things like Parsimony/Ebullience, but try to keep in mind that, while much easier on your stratagem timer, they're really nothing but MP-savers. You'll do more damage over time by reducing your CE.
way too much assumptions and calculations with no real testing, also implying that sch can only do 1k dmg per spell with no ebullience invalidates your entire wall-o-text post, (not being a b|t ch here), and of course you had to add the usefulness of blm to add up a lil sense, we all agree blm is very useful than sch atm when it comes to procs and stun, that is not debatable, we talking about damage here, not usefulness, i apologize this time about the daily topic bans and stuff, i recognize that was mean and useless
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:04:05
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Asura.Jadecc said: »
Bahamut.Mizuharu said: »
Sylph.Liltrouble said: »
I know several people that enjoy playing pup. I imagine it's a fun job. For them. To each their own. But for a Pup to insist they can out-nuke a pro Blm is foolhardy, at best. It's like a Sch claiming they can out heal a career Whm. Or, a Pup, making the same claim.

Wish people would give PUP an try and learn how the job works rather than popping in like this. (And before anyone jumps on me for saying this without having BLM leveled, my second account is BLM95. Only thing "bad" about it would be I still have moldy/hecate instead of Novio/Hecate.)

Also, no PUP would make that WHM claim btw since the AI system makes it so -na comes before Cures. And the time between cures for a party set up IT~NM would be murder (Unless it's like a duo of nin + pup >.>)

Your automaton would only cast -na on party members if you have a water meneuver up, as long as you yourself do not get enfeebled, you can expect your automaton (with light maneuvers up) to cure whoever has the least % hp or at least regen the person with hate, sub sch to cure 3 spam in between cure 6s and pup makes a decent healer, however much less reliable than a whm obviously.
im waiting for the AI change before i start messing with my pup again.
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-30 19:04:12
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Pax, which isn't limited to self-targeting, would reduce Equanimity's value to .45 enmity reduction/spell.

And while its an uncommon school of thought, if all you're doing is dealing damage, its not really terrible at all. Helices skew things a bit, but there's never a time in a battle where hitting the enmity cap matters that, for instance, two Ebulliences are better for your output than one Equanimity.

@Eman:
The 1000/spell damage assumption is irrelevant. I assumed the same damage for both the BLM and SCH comparisons. I could have said 99999 DMG/spell and the %DPM threshold increase would have been the same. And no part of testing these scenarios would become more accurate in the field. We have the values for enmity generation, my assessment is 100% representative of what would happen in an actual battle.
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:06:23
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Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
way too much assumptions and calculations with no real testing, also implying that sch can only do 1k dmg per spell with no ebullience invalidates your entire wall-o-text post, (not being a b|t ch here), and of course you had to add the usefulness of blm to add up a lil sense, we all agree blm is very useful tan sch atm when it comes to procs and stun, that is not debatable, we talking about damage here, not usefulness
it's math >.>;
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:08:24
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Pax, which isn't limited to self-targeting, would reduce Equanimity's value to .45 enmity reduction/spell.

And while its an uncommon school of thought, if all you're doing is dealing damage, its not really terrible at all. Helices skew things a bit, but there's never a time in a battle where hitting the enmity cap matters that, for instance, two Ebulliences are better for your output than one Equanimity.
was just some things i wanted to point out.


i havent ironed out the testing with a large sample size, but the proc on the body is atleast 5%.
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By Asura.Jadecc 2011-09-30 19:08:34
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also blm proc>sch proc is debatable (in voidwatch) i find that elemental procs are helices 10-20% of the time and are elemental enfeebles ~10% of the time, as sch/blm i was procing alot more than our party of blackmages
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:10:23
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Asura.Jadecc said: »
also blm proc>sch proc is debatable (in voidwatch) i find that elemental procs are helices 10-20% of the time and are elemental enfeebles ~10% of the time, as sch/blm i was procing alot more than our party of blackmages
blm still has ja's ga's and AM, which still puts them ahead.
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-30 19:10:26
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Asura.Jadecc said: »
also blm proc>sch proc is debatable (in voidwatch) i find that elemental procs are helixes 10-20% of the time and are elemental enfeebles ~10% of the time, as sch/blm i was procing alot more than our party of blackmages

Incredibly doubtful. There's no reason to believe that the spell selected isn't drawn equally from all available spells, which means that BLM has a higher chance of being selected.
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By Lakshmi.Emanuelle 2011-09-30 19:10:52
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since it's a pup thread, what can pup solo on abyssea?
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By Asura.Jadecc 2011-09-30 19:12:36
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Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
since it's a pup thread, what can pup solo on abyssea?
anything, get some regain atmas rng auto and kite, throwing automatons at it and spamming armor piercer
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-30 19:13:11
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Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Pax, which isn't limited to self-targeting, would reduce Equanimity's value to .45 enmity reduction/spell.

And while its an uncommon school of thought, if all you're doing is dealing damage, its not really terrible at all. Helices skew things a bit, but there's never a time in a battle where hitting the enmity cap matters that, for instance, two Ebulliences are better for your output than one Equanimity.
was just some things i wanted to point out.


i havent ironed out the testing with a large sample size, but the proc on the body is atleast 5%.

The variable conditions introduced by helices make my head hurt. Full-time DD SCH maximization essentially comes down to putting all of your stratagems into helices(which also has the benefit of limiting TP/DMG dealt), or putting all of your stratagems into reducing major spell damage. You technically have 6.25 uses of Equanimity every 10 minutes, so you could Ebullience one helix in that window.

Ugh..
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By Leviathan.Dodu 2011-09-30 19:17:24
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Its amusing to remind myself that, all calculations aside, there is no better long-term DD than BLU. Regurgitation spam in conjunction with a TA+spell once per minute has the highest damage per unit of enmity available by freaking miiiiiles.
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By Lakshmi.Emanuelle 2011-09-30 19:18:14
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Asura.Jadecc said: »
Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
since it's a pup thread, what can pup solo on abyssea?
anything, get some regain atmas rng auto and kite, throwing automatons at it and spamming armor piercer
i need more info about pup, can solo turul too?
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:20:24
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »

The variable conditions introduced by helices make my head hurt. Full-time DD SCH maximization essentially comes down to putting all of your stratagems into helices(which also has the benefit of limiting TP/DMG dealt), or putting all of your stratagems into reducing major spell damage. You technically have 6.25 uses of Equanimity every 10 minutes, so you could Ebullience one helix in that window.

Ugh..
pretty much, helix is virtually sch's free hate nukes.

that and if situation allots it, self sc nukes, i dont have ice magian finished, but self sc bliz 5 is stupid strong, sc -> ebu -> bliz 5 has given me upwards of 15k with the bliz alone.
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By Asura.Jadecc 2011-09-30 19:20:30
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sure
Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
Asura.Jadecc said: »
Lakshmi.Emanuelle said: »
since it's a pup thread, what can pup solo on abyssea?
anything, get some regain atmas rng auto and kite, throwing automatons at it and spamming armor piercer
i need more info about pup, can solo turul too?
sure why not, pup is boss
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:23:27
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Its amusing to remind myself that, all calculations aside, there is no better long-term DD than BLU. Regurgitation spam in conjunction with a TA+spell once per minute has the highest damage per unit of enmity available by freaking miiiiiles.
with the limitation of mp of course.
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-30 19:29:29
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Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Its amusing to remind myself that, all calculations aside, there is no better long-term DD than BLU. Regurgitation spam in conjunction with a TA+spell once per minute has the highest damage per unit of enmity available by freaking miiiiiles.

You're not supposed to be posting that in these forums. It's justifies Draylo, Nightfyre and Prothescar's insanity. D:<

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE BLUE MAGES
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-09-30 19:32:56
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>:C

Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Its amusing to remind myself that, all calculations aside, there is no better long-term DD than BLU. Regurgitation spam in conjunction with a TA+spell once per minute has the highest damage per unit of enmity available by freaking miiiiiles.
with the limitation of mp of course.

Shouldn't be limited by MP with Regurgitation and a TA'd spell every 1 minute. BLU's spells aren't that expensive. Regurgitation is paid for by refresh and then some by the time the recast is up.
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:33:41
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blu sux
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By Asura.Jadecc 2011-09-30 19:35:03
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Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »
blu sux
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-30 19:35:37
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Think of the TP spam. The horror.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-09-30 19:36:37
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You're just jelly. It's ok, we can't all be immortal!
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By Fenrir.Niniann 2011-09-30 19:38:10
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
You're just jelly. It's ok, we can't all be immortal!

I do not want to live a short lifespan as a human then transform into a soulflayer for the rest of my existence. I think I'm good. :(
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-09-30 19:38:26
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Fenrir.Niniann said: »
Leviathan.Dodu said: »
Its amusing to remind myself that, all calculations aside, there is no better long-term DD than BLU. Regurgitation spam in conjunction with a TA+spell once per minute has the highest damage per unit of enmity available by freaking miiiiiles.

You're not supposed to be posting that in these forums. It's justifies Draylo, Nightfyre and Prothescar's insanity. D:<

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE BLUE MAGES

:(((((
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-09-30 19:38:50
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ALSO ASSUMING YOU'RE SERIOUS:

BLU would end up feeding less TP than most other jobs, too.
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By Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu 2011-09-30 19:38:58
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
You're just jelly. It's ok, we can't all be immortal!
well explain why hundreds of blus were all 1 single pup's ***.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2011-09-30 19:39:34
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Lakshmi.Sirafiinikkusu said: »
Valefor.Prothescar said: »
You're just jelly. It's ok, we can't all be immortal!
well explain why hundreds of blus were all 1 single pup's ***.

Those hundreds of BLUs *** suck. Fulltiming AF and Sipahi hands and ***.
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