Songs For Merit Party

Ok, So normally when I merit I do Min/Mad because that was just normal for me... enhanced speed and better #s on your WS, which DD seem to like.

Someone brought up a link.. http://ffximath.risen-guild.com/?p=16

reading it over, says Adv March>Min4

However this only applies to melee DD.. and since I often party with rangers, I am wondering if anyone would know how to test which would be better.

Assuming 1 ranger, and he is not in melee range.

Songs for melee: March x2
Songs for Rng Min/March

VS

Songs for melee: March/Min
Songs for Rng: Minx2

1st example has the melee with the, apparently, best songs, and the rng w/ only 1 useful song.

2nd example has melee with 2 good songs, just not quite as good as marchx2..
but the RNG has 2 good songs, wonder if the difference is enough to make it neglible, or if someone could argue, with facts or sound reasoning, 1 way or the other.

No assumptions please, like how aggressive ppl are.. I have seen under geared DD outparse well geared same job DD simply because they are on the ball with engaging and moving into attack range, while the "good" DD stares around going.. what?

Also, don't say just do marchx2 melee and minuetx2 for rng, I have a hard enough time keeping 5 songs up and getting pull back to party before current one dies, adding an extra song is just murder.




Another question, most bards I know say wind>string, for obvious reasons.
But, if you are only meriting one magic for bard. Why would you merit wind over singing? Are wind merits better for wind songs then say, an equal amount of singing?

For elegy, would +8 wind be better then +8 singing?

I am just assuming no, and put my merits into singing, because in the off chance I use harp (Nursemaid's perhaps) my merits still help

But reading some threads ppl keep saying just do wind because it's better then string... but is it better then singing? Oo

Sorta depends on the players but really do you think the small increase in dmg to 1 player from an extra min will make up for the other 3 players attack more often and therefore wsing more often?

Make the RNGs come a good job to merits and march/march (march/march either way.)!

Also tell those rngs that they need to be capping Cratio without songs... which on greater lolibri with only dia III on them would be around 882 att on the higher lvl ones... which for a rng with velocity shoot berserk and something like curry up is only a ratt from gear and skill of 499. Doable with just 1 min

for sleep whit bard in merit is better wind then string and the people use mary's horn.
for me is better than nursemaid cose you can find more wind skill gear then string for land, and the nursemaid bonus diference only got effect in the time sleeped like 1 second more.
Im was making the same mistake whit my bard using nursemaid instead mary.
Now only minding about use nurse in a dynamis area or something for this another second whit the mobs sleepeds.

If I'm in your PT you will give me march and minuet or I will cry.

Honestly it depends on where & what I'm doing.

Min/Mad : If Acc is below 90%, or have 2x bard so getting march x2
Mad/March : If Acc is below 90% and only 1 bard (Mnk in MMM)
Min/March : If Acc is above 90% and only 1 bard (DD/Nin in ANNM)
March/March : /Nin tanking and i need capped haste (Mnk on chariots)

Min/Min : 2 other bards and getting Mad/Mad + March/March
Mad/Mad : lower level XP party


Xxx / Brd for level sync
- / Paeon
- / Madrigal
- / Ballad

Honestly as Drg or Mnk to me if i can't break 90% Acc i would much rather cap out Acc especially for Asuran or Penta (although with kupo hat thats less of an issue). After I've got capped Acc go for haste, after haste go for bonus Atk.

no i don't know whats better but that's what would make me happy.

@Dasva,

min/march still helps the DD though, and the RNGs I merit with usually go /sam for seigan/third since they constantly have hate, as /war they can die in a high dmg pecking + 2 crit hits. So they don't have zerk and need more R.att, so the min/march would only be slightly worse then marchx2 (has anyone actually gone out and tested both songs? using the same DDs in the same camp for 2hrs+ and seen how much diff exp was? Obviously controlling variables like afks or the like) while the rng would be getting a decent boost from minuets. And Dia3 implies a RDM who has it merited, I merit w/ rdm/sch/whm all equally.. and of the rdms i merit with, not many have dia3.. and the ones that do don't often cast it every mob... so yeh.

@stewie.. yeah, the 3 rngs that i regularly party with, don't get outparsed often, cept by a couple of my drg friends... I'm not saying rng is the best, just given the advantage they have, and the gear/skill my friends have, kinda moot to invite random LFG ppl when i know i have 3 very good rngs at my disposal

@Raulete, I understand that wind>string for pretty much everything. My question was, is wind skill merits better for wind instruments then singing skill merits.

@Aries

My group likes minuet, i havent tried marchx2, I know that our good MNK (prays she comes back) has capped recast w/ 1 march+haste. Our 2nd mnk.. idk.
I don't know if the gains in damage would outweigh the amount of TP they would feed the mob, thus making it use discarge and the like more often. Usually we either have plenty of time, or no chance at all (bad runs w/ dc's or horrid luck on drops, like arrapago), maybe only once have we cut it within 2 minutes on boss kill

I was actually kidding about capping Cratio for rngs... but really it's a question of what helps more haste is much more exponential helper and well is on more DDs lol

Pretty much this, RNG is hard to deal with in a merit party as you will never get the optimal songs for all the jobs without pulling suffering.

March/Min would be an 'ok' set of songs for 2melee + RNG party, but will never be great.

march/march

If your dd is at the point where madrigal > 2nd march, you need a new DD.

"I know that our good MNK (prays she comes back) has capped recast w/ 1 march+haste. Our 2nd mnk.. idk."
It's not about capping recast, it's about outputting the most dmg (which is done w/ march march).

The only benefit to minuet over a march is on stuff you don't want to feed tp, as march's extra damage comes w/ extra tp for mobs since you hit them more often. This doesn't apply to merit mobs because lol at their tp moves.

I know this isn't the answer your looking for but....really, it depends. If your "normal DD's" and your rng are going to be parsing rather close then go with march/march since you will (I would hope) have more "normal DD's" thus increasing their damage will help more. Also, the more damage your "normal DD's" do the more hate they generate and the less likely the the rng is to pull hate outside of ws's and barragewhich means they spend more time at perfect distance (increasing their damage)this will also help out your DD's by lowering those annoying "target was too far away" tp loses.(Ok that might be a bit of a stretch since hate is flying around all the time between dds in meripo).

On the other hand, if your DD's suck or if you have multiple rngs by all means give them march/min so you can give the rngs min/min.

As far as wind vs singing I really have no clue. But I don't see why you would need the extra skill for your string songs that would come by meriting singing instead of wind (are you really using elegy or victory march with string? other than that its just horde lullaby for the higher AoE size over wind and I find the times I need that the mobs don't have that high of resistance for the merits in singing to really matter)

Did not read thread, but Min/min March / march for dual bard, other than that Min/march or dont come bard.

Another one bites the dust by Queen is always a good song for meri pos :D

Maybe you should have...

O'wait... brd songs. Still good song to smash birdies to.

On the topic of Brd Magic merits, if you're only doing one category Singing is the right choice. Singing skill affects all of yours songs exactly the same way Wind or String would with matching instrument.

Dont party with RNG and use dub MArch?

x2 attack songs all day for the epeen... if your DD need acc song time to rep them. haste doesnt matter when 1 WS does 75% dmg to bird

Or get your RDM to use Dia III.

Dia III will have roughly the same effect on you cratio as double minuet.

Haha! dub minuet

interesting thread. i think the OP's link makes too many assumptions though. it's never cut-and-dry. marchx2 is the highest tp dps, but WS frequency isn't a raw '13.8%' to WS DPS simply via frequency. or maybe it is, idk. but when i drop attackx2 on a party, their ws damage is increased significantly, and over time, it could be 13.8% or more. it's hard to say.

on the other hand, it's easy to take a 9% haste rate and use that to make a percentile increase in damage output. it's difficult to take attack+66 and turn that into a percentile for damage output. again, i feel the link makes a lot of assumptions. it even ends on the note that the attack+66 is hard to say on how it affects WS damage.

for mamool ja staging point, i always say madrigal/minuet when going in not knowing how good your players are. i say this because of their 'jump jump jump' tp move that increases their evasion on top of their already high evasion. even with sushi, a mediocre tp build will not be able to reliably hit the infiltrators. collibri is a similar story because most players simply don't use food. it's party to party. if i pull an infiltrator though (or am going to pull one next), i'll make sure my party has madrigal if i'm not confident in their hit rate. even if they are, 'warm-up' can floor hit rate, and it sometimes gets missed b/c it sometimes takes two dispels to get rid-of the evasion bonus.

while i respect vegetto's views as he has always been spot on, i still say that for most merit parties, you'll do march/minuet. i've done march/march for high dps parties, that is, nins, mnks, thfs, dw wars. but more WS oriented jobs, drgs, sams, ga wars, rngs, Minuet is more useful to them. i could be wrong, but i feel that's a sound methodology.

ok having said all of that... i personally do march/march 99% of all merit parties i am in because i always can dual box my brother's corsair. it's very easy to luzaf's ring three buffs and still pull. so there you go. if you have a corsair, marchx2 no questions asked.

hope that helps,

~G

Get the *** out.

The link does make assumptions, but they are all 'good' assumptions.

13.8% increase in Swing rate, is a 13.8% increase in Damage over time (as you 13.8% more hits) and 13.8% increase in WS damage (as you get 13.8% increase in hits = 13.8% more TP = 13.8% more WS = 13.8% more WS damage)

You can't not say how attack effects WS (not in a general sense, as it varies WS to WS), but you can measure how it improves you overall attack, which obviously has a effect across the board.

The main thing is, in an optimum set up you will be getting Chaos Roll and Dia II (or Dia III) on every mob, so you will be very near to capping cratio on merit mobs (especially if you are eating food), so more attack becomes useless (or close to).

@Veg,

I never said anything about madrigal for DD in merits, not saying that was directed at me, but outside of jade camp, I won't use madrigal. That said, I only use madrigal on the THF mamool because that stupid Warm-Up move sucks.

And that's also why I said i do minuet/march for salvage, so they don't spam feed TP to w/e mob they are on. And I know attack speed haste caps way higher then recast, was just saying.

Also, we have a drg/sam and a couple sam's for our salvage group, so they usually have TP for start of any big mob. Which, (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) lowers the bonus of march if your DDs usually have TP at start of fight, since march has 0 effect on actual WS and meditate is pretty much a free ws w/ every use.. cept for the drg, who just can use jump to make up for the gimped med, which also isn't effected by march..(Jump, that is)

@Argettio

I covered the fact about Dia3, it's damn near impossible to get someone you don't know to use Dia II/III every mob dependably, maybe you can say something and they will do it for 10 minutes, but I'm not going to repeat it every 4 pulls to refresh their memory.


@Zayo

I have actually been listening to Invincible - Adelita's Way for start of merits, just happenstance really, usually pick a diff playlist and it's at start. Although it would be better as a solo tank on ks99 wyrm song......

Oh, also, a long time ago I was told att has more effect on multi hit ws's then it does on single fold

And since I do almost 0 online research, (this is my.. maybe, 3rd? question/foray into the realm of online forums in 6years) has this ever been disputed or proven, or proven wrong? Just asking because if so, maybe it's harder to say that for jobs that have a multihit ws's..*shrug*

Best songs for merit party is:-
do they know it christmas time
we wish you a merit christmas
rocking around the christmas tree

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE

you too buddy :D

FTFY

And a merry Christmas to you too ^^

On topic: March/March

No really, March/March. By all means Minuet the non-KC RNGs if it doesn't slow your pulling though.

I stand correted, all bow to the muppets..