Wing Of War - Cleared
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Wing of War - Cleared
You couldn't have said it better Dex. The Goat was the mastermind that allowed us to finish the job. Miss you brother. @Bigtymer
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Asura.Bigtymer said: » The existence of Yawp kills the possibility of melee setups altogether. Even gravity-cheesed melee ideas; even if the arena were large enough for such an idea, Yawp would cleanse the gravity from himself, and landing subsequent gravity's on Chaos is extremely difficult. Bahamut can cast Dispelga, but it's not a game-over full dispel (only one buff and he's not particularly spammy with it), so one could still see potential for melee ideas in which you hope for decent RNG on the frequency and severity (did it get a song or not a song) of the Dispelga's. Take away Yawp from the encounter, and there's at least a constructive conversation you can have about melee ideas. I, like Vyre, also want to believe. It's hard to with how much testing has gone into the fight though. But I've mentioned to others that perhaps Oppressive Yawp is the punishment for whatever obscure mechanic might exist? Perhaps it's this encounter's version of the attack-down auras from Sealed Fate? I don't know what the mechanic would check for though.
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Guy really can't believe SE would make a fight that cannot be cleared without cheesing.
Must be new here.
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Asura.Vyre said: » On another note, were any Japanese groups close? Xolla's group was the closest. They had public reports of having beaten both Chaos and Bahamut in different pulls, so they had their way smashing their heads against the Bahamut brick wall. But, Shonuts (the guy I was talking to) never gave me specifics about how they did it. I also don't know how close they were to getting both down in a single pull, but from what I can tell, their prog stopped cold turkey for some alleged reasons I won't get into here.
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Dodik said: » Guy really can't believe SE would make a fight that cannot be cleared without cheesing. Must be new here. Me: I'm relatively new to FFXI. Dobik: Hmmm... This guy must be pretty new here...
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Ovalidal said: » It's hard to with how much testing has gone into the fight though. But I've mentioned to others that perhaps Oppressive Yawp is the punishment for whatever obscure mechanic might exist? Perhaps it's this encounter's version of the attack-down auras from Sealed Fate? I don't know what the mechanic would check for though. Hard to say considering it'd Yawp each time it used an SP regardless of TP... and even more so I'd like to point out that, while Chaos deals much more damage to your party and its overall more 'threatening', he takes hella damage and dies all the same unlike Bahamut who bottlenecks the fight or forces you to hit a brick wall on DPS. In our prog in order to improve DPS we'd do pulls and time our damage and make micro adjustments to see how fast we could get to push to SP1, or SP2, etc. We even tested the theory that, due to Bahamut's insistence on running the clock, "Maybe Chaos is the only key to the fight and if we kill him Twice the encounter will end", or "Maybe 8+ SPs need to be Seen in order for them to stop refusing to die". Maybe a month? prior to the clear we successfully got a Chaos pull where we got him to 1%, he healed to full (via mechanic, there is no actual <Benediction> in the chat log and you don't see how much he heals. You just start hitting for 0's for exactly 10 seconds, then his HP goes to full).. Then we brought him down to 1% again and he healed to full again. Oh and also, he doesn't keep SPing after healing. He does his 4-5 and then stops on the 2nd health bar. While it was demoralizing in that it proved we had to kill Bahamut, it kinda sealed the deal that the 10 second immunity is the "check both HP bars" portion, and that Bahamut needed to die which allowed us to focus on the main issue. In the clear it was taking 4ish WS's from Rangers to push 1%. Once Bahamut read 1% HP (which actually means 1.9% since 0.9 and lower isn't shown as 0%) we did 4 WS's on him to soften him up just incase, and then swapped to Chaos. When Chaos reached 1% we swapped the COR and 2nd RNG to Bahamut while 1 RNG finished Chaos. Shortly after WS's and shots dealt 0 damage to both targets. Then "Bahamut falls to the ground", and the next damage dealt to Chaos killed him.  Strangely the time from immune to dead was less than the 10 seconds we saw consistently that it'd take for them to heal to full if their counterpart was not also at 1%... Unfortunately due to the nature of the randomness hell that is PRAY for 4+ Sforzos in a row in order to take Bahamut down in a pace that's clearable... we simply don't know whether they need to both be at exactly 1% simultaneously to die?... below 5%? below 10%?... it just simply doesn't make sense to risk it when you get the 'god run' after so many attempts and dry runs. I realize this is mostly unnecessary data, but if it in any way helps someone in the future identify some greater detail, then awesome.
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Asura.Dexprozius said: » Strangely the time from immune to dead was less than the 10 seconds we saw consistently that it'd take for them to heal to full if their counterpart was not also at 1%... Unfortunately due to the nature of the randomness hell that is PRAY for 4+ Sforzos in a row in order to take Bahamut down in a pace that's clearable... we simply don't know whether they need to both be at exactly 1% simultaneously to die?... below 5%? below 10%?... it just simply doesn't make sense to risk it when you get the 'god run' after so many attempts and dry runs. I know it is impossible to determine with the info we have, but I remember Shiraj speculating about this before; you think the reason it was shorter was because the game checks if 8 SPs have gone off? Also, in regards to Yawp, perhaps it is a standard TP move in addition to his use of it as a mechanic? Kinda like Odin's Zantetsuken from Black and White? Also, I don't know how many Yawps it would take to make this fight different, so maybe this idea it a moot point anyway. Edit: Also is Yawp the only move that behaves this way, being used without TP?
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Ovalidal said: » I know it is impossible to determine with the info we have, but I remember Shiraj speculating about this before; you think the reason it was shorter was because the game checks if 8 SPs have gone off? To be honest my guess is that it's just checking that they're within the accepted threshold of HP.. whether its sub 5% or 1% or what have you. I think the SP's thing was just a theory Ovalidal said: » Also is Yawp the only move that behaves this way, being used without TP? This is me parroting Shiraj. He'd know better given how extensively he combed through the vods and logs
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Asura.Melliny said: » I’m 100% certain nobody at S-E ever cleared v25 bumba without some GM level kinda stats on their characters. Most likely they never play tested at all. They’ve told us the intended strategy was melee and magic burst, and we all know that isn’t viable because he gets permanent -dt after every attack beyond 10k damage (also screw the insta KO midway in). Quote: Also, I don't know how many Yawps it would take to make this fight different, so maybe this idea it a moot point anyway. ANY amount of Yawping hitting the dd's will end your run. The way they positioned was this .......Tank........................ ....Dragon..Dragon............ ................................... ................................... ................................... ................................... .................................... Bard ................................... .......****Yawp's outer edge of effect***.... ....Ranger Ranger Cor Geo........... The AoE range is devestating, but with this specifc formation the dd's are just BARELY outside the range of Yawp, by no more than 1 or 2 yalms, and the reason is because the yawp effect is centered on the tank, who is IN FRONT of the dragons in relation to everyone else. This is the positioning that bigtymer's group determined was the only way to make the fight functional. They pulled me into a few runs in early 2024 for some testing and data gathering. We took chaos down to 1% and watched him full heal. As mentioned, there is nothing in the log. No benediction animation, or notification. He just starts taking 0 damage whenever we shot him and 10 seconds later he was back at 100% HP. We gauged the two dragons to have approximately 18.5 to 19 million way back then already. We also knew of the invincible and svortzo issue way back then already. Bahamut is a LOT tankier than Chaos. Going off memory alone I'd say chaos took about 50% more damage than bahamut did. So when bahamut used invincible it was absolutely crippling, because damage just stopped dead flat. We're talking 7-10k weaponskills instead of 25-30k+ ones. You cannot expect to punch through that kind of DT in the 1 hour time limit when the dragons have such absurdley high hp pools, which was why shiraz and co warped out whenever invincible went off. It's also why I gave up on the fight back then. It's too grindy and too time consuming. I wasn't able to commit the hours that would be needed for this kinda undertaking. Tl;DR version summarizing the response to the quote. Melee strategy is not possible because of Yawp. Only ranged setup with that exact formation can put out the damage while dodging the dispells. And you CAN'T afford to be dispelled with evasion and defenses as high as these 2 have. 2200 evasion post nerf is absurd. Without every buff available you aren't hitting them PERIOD.
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Asura.Melliny said: » We're talking 7-10k weaponskills instead of 25-30k+ ones. Do you have a feeling for how the crit rate was with Pinaka? I wasn't gearing for critical hits. I had just finished my stage 5 bow a month or two earlier so they asked me to help gather some testing data since I was one of the only people capable of damaging chaos sufficiently at the time. We weren't doing any serious tries back then, just feeling things out so people would have an idea what needed to be done when the real efforts began.
That said, I've had plenty of time to play with Pinaka since. I understand why they opted to use Earp, since it has 15% crit rate and dead aim is a real boon here. Personally I don't think either weapon is inherently superior. Sarv has slightly higher stat mods than terminus, and pinaka has 10 store tp on it. You can gear for a crit build with pinaka if you want too. It wouldn't be much different than gearing for white damage hits with gandiva's aftermath, and pinaka does have a 30% proc rate on triple damage white hits. So I feel like it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. But that's just my opinion as a ranger fanatic :3. I didn't do the real grind with them so I'm just theorycrafting here. The only real takeaway I can give you with certainty is that as soon as bahamut uses invincible your ***. Any fight where there is a 1 in 16 chance of coin flips going your way is ***design. If 15 out of every 16 runs are going to fail because "Dragon used wrong random move, sorry guys lets warp out"... and then on those 1 in 16 fights where he DOES go all svortzo you can just flat out die or lose because other things went wrong over the nearly 1 hour long fight....its just degenerate. OP group has godlike perserverence. Very few would have stuck with it that long. I know one of their members felt the fight was hopeless and on more than a few times said "he didn't think the fight COULD be won". He just helped because it gave them something to do. I'm glad they finally got the clear. They paid for it in blood and sweat for almost two years of off and on grinding.
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Yeah im convinced there is a way to bypass invincible. Once my group finishes some gear I think we will play around with it since there isnt much to do in the game anymore.
It could be the mobs have to be pulled away from each other a specific amount of space while fighting thus req 2 tanks. It could be that the fight expects you to balance damage types the entire fight - blunt/slash/pierce/magic. It could be lore info that is baked into FFXI(or other FF games) that gives a hint. It could be a lot of things. It definitely is hard for me to swallow that this fight, to include Bumba only has 1 way to win. Cockblocking fights to 100% needing a SCH and Kaustra to having a fight that requires 2 rng with st5 making every other prime weapon pointless is a pretty shitty thing to do but alas SE. I love how the only solution is to be out of range and only 2 physical jobs realistically are able to do it where it bars any form of creativity or different strats. Such bore
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lunariancrystal said: » Yeah im convinced there is a way to bypass invincible. Once my group finishes some gear I think we will play around with it since there isnt much to do in the game anymore. It could be the mobs have to be pulled away from each other a specific amount of space while fighting thus req 2 tanks. It could be that the fight expects you to balance damage types the entire fight - blunt/slash/pierce/magic. It could be lore info that is baked into FFXI(or other FF games) that gives a hint. It could be a lot of things. It definitely is hard for me to swallow that this fight, to include Bumba only has 1 way to win. Cockblocking fights to 100% needing a SCH and Kaustra to having a fight that requires 2 rng with st5 making every other prime weapon pointless is a pretty shitty thing to do but alas SE. I love how the only solution is to be out of range and only 2 physical jobs realistically are able to do it where it bars any form of creativity or different strats. Such bore I wish you guys nothing but the best.. it's a brutal endeavor. I'd say (most) of us felt the same way, but after so many ideas tested and how difficult it even is to test, hope dwindled on finding some miracle discovery Separating them and pushing to SP's while separate was tested. Simultaneous damage to his SP's from both was tested. A big issue is that their SP's are in a window of HP, not at a set HP value so its unpredictable. Also if you have 2 tanks, I promise you that you won't have the DPS necessary to clear. As it was said a ton prior, the real killer isnt the DT. It's the full dispel spam. If not for that, Melee DD's could be viable such as WAR + DRG, and they could likely overcome atleast 1 invincible. It's starting to make me think that what Fujito said on the live stream that "We plan every content without expecting players to make REMA" (paraphrased)... was really taken to heart and they expected us to do this constantly re-applying buffs or something. I will say that Blunt damage was not thoroughly tested, and one of the strategies that Shiraj theorized had legs was MNK centric. If you'd like to be that brave soul to test things, all the luck in the world to you
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It's none of the above, whatever mechanic was supposed to exist is broken and likely won't be fixed. The only way forward is to bypass the broken mechanic completely and use brute force and luck.
This seems to be a very common pattern in SE's content design.
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I wouldn't even be that surprised to hear there was never a mechanic planned. They probably looked at ballpark magic and physical damage for top jobs and picked HP based on that without considering how the TP moves or job comps would reduce it, IMO.
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That's pretty much the conclusion everyone who was trying the fight as well as those who collaborated came to. Ockham's razor - the simplest solution is often the correct one. Whenever there is a mechanic in fights s-e usually makes finding a hint to it fairly easy to come by. In this case there is nothing, and for two years nothing has been gleaned. There probably just isn't one. It's probably working exactly as intended. When S-E made the fight they probably figured very few players would bother trying it (they were right), so they made it ultra hard and super rng dependant. They probably figured that since gear creep is what it is this was about the only way to prevent us from just plowing through the clear.
It just sucks because if this is the intended design is bull ***, and horribly unbalanced. The dps check is extremely high as is, and the mechanics pigeon hole you into one specific strategy. There isn't even room for a proper healer. The amount of DT invincible gives Bahamut is way too high. It's actually run ending as soon as he uses it. But that's what the guys had to put up with all this time. So I guess it is what it is. Quote: I thought they said the newer trials were specifically designed to "showcase the power" of Prime weapons? Chaos only taking actual damage from prime weapons is fine and in line with the lore. But Bahamut's mechanics are stupid and terribly implemented. And because of the fight's mechanics you can't even use the other prime weapons. It's really just paraphrasing for saying "We made this fight to showcase pinaka and earp's power", because nobody is getting into melee range with any of the other primes when yawp is going off all day long. Anyone who has ever worked in software engineering knows someone who architects stuff like they do and cries at night about it.
Asura.Dexprozius said: » . It's starting to make me think that what Fujito said on the live stream that "We plan every content without expecting players to make REMA" (paraphrased) I thought they said the newer trials were specifically designed to "showcase the power" of Prime weapons? I got a good laugh at one of the ways they accomplished that was nerfing the damage to non-Primes by 75%. While I get it's more involved than that, I still found it funny in that context lunariancrystal said: » Yeah im convinced there is a way to bypass invincible. Once my group finishes some gear I think we will play around with it since there isnt much to do in the game anymore. Awesome to see someone else interested in testing this fight. My personal assumption is, whoever designed it really liked Sealed Fate. The designer wanted to copy over the necessity to balanced damage types, but made it almost mandatory on one mob (Bahamut). Perhaps also, he wanted to make TP suppression required, so Oppressive Yawp is a TP move rather than just a 1-time thing for Chaos's first SP. So maybe great value Sealed Fate, but overtuned to oblivion? Asura.Melliny said: » Quote: Also, I don't know how many Yawps it would take to make this fight different, so maybe this idea it a moot point anyway. ANY amount of Yawping hitting the dd's will end your run. The way they positioned was this... Thanks for the clarification. It is bewildering that Yawp is a standard TP move. I don't think SE thinks of absolute TP denial as a valid strategy in the way that we use it.
It feels like this fight is just crazy unbalanced. The February nerf is a sign that they didn't have a strong opinion about what stats were actually reasonable. They probably designed the mechanics, set the stats to w/e, and let it sit for a while (2 years?) They dropped the stats in February so it's now possible to kill with crazy coordination and a very specific setup. There is precedent for intentionally unkillable enemies (e.g. Absolute Virtue) and that is probably what this was for them. It's possible that there's secretly some way to lock Yawp, but I doubt we'll find it if it hasn't been found yet. Experimentation will probably end now that there's a validated setup that can win (<1/16 of the time). I do wonder if they also nerfed the August Master Trial in February.
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That's my take too, and I bet all the guys who fought or helped test things would agree. It's a result of the game having no real development budget, no actual staff to design content with, and a lack of desire by s-e's corporate to funnel any resources into ffxi anymore. The devs grabbed some existing assets, threw together some mechanics, set the stats based on what they thought would prove a challenge, and let it sit. They didn't bother to test anything and they themselves probably had no idea if the fight was winnable any more than we did.
Oppressive Yawp is exactly what it says it is -- oppressive!!!
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Ovalidal said: » Asura.Melliny said: » Quote: Also, I don't know how many Yawps it would take to make this fight different, so maybe this idea it a moot point anyway. ANY amount of Yawping hitting the dd's will end your run. The way they positioned was this... Thanks for the clarification. It is bewildering that Yawp is a standard TP move. These were probably originally made as proper weapons (apparantely these were made a long *** time ago, but they just never used them) but if they are prestige trophy weapons it would make so much more sense for them to be perma lit so others can see you wearing them in town.
Huge congrats to Dex, Shiraj, Bakerboy, and everyone on the clear!
An incredible group of players! This is what happens when you bring the best of the best together! We have to do what we do best as a community and optimize this winning strategy even further by finding and testing ways to speed up the fight, possibly to the point where we can compensate for the time loss of even one of the invincible SPs when it occurs. Maybe increase the luck factor a little? lol At this point, complaining about the fight mechanics here won’t be as effective as posting on the FFXI forums. Although I do understand, the official forums have lost their communicative efficacy compared to before. They used to listen to JP posts 95% of the time, while NA/EU players maybe received around 1% feedback or effective responses that led to actual changes. Even that small percentage feels trivial and almost nonexistent now. Still, it might not hurt to post our review of the fight for the dev team… though it might not lead anywhere. We could also motivate JP players to make a complaint post, they’re probably salty they didn’t get the world first… lol Was curious, but does Geomancy face penalties in this and the other master trials?
Quote: Mechanics we do know: Chaos SPs 4-5 times in 1 health bar either Manafont or Chainspell Bahamut SPs 4-5 in 1 health bar either Elemental Sforzo or Invincible. Geomancy nerfed -50%
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