Automaton Research Thread

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Automaton Research Thread
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 Fenrir.Motenten
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-20 18:32:47
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From the original test:
Code
Fire x1    unequipped     69    825
Fire x1     equipped      69    990 


If we assume fStr didn't go up, since at the time a Fire Maneuver only added 1 str, we get:

825 / 3 pDif = 275 / 2.5 fTP = 110 base damage
990 / 3 pDif = 330 / 110 base damage = 3.0 fTP

So this shows a +0.5 fTP as well. It only concludes that the fTP bonus is 0.25 because it uses an incorrect base fTP value of 1.25 at 100 TP.

The test also shows and concludes that the Flame Holder consumes the Fire Maneuvers before fStr is calculated. It just never got added to any wiki.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 00:36:05
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This isn't exactly Automaton Research - but it's related since it's a large part of the reason I set out to find Armor Shatterer's formula!

Since we now know a bit about what's going on with Armor Shatterer - we can abuse its ratio boost to get an estimate on Enemy VIT based on the VIT of the LV77 Hpemde (80) by WSing them with a constant DEX value!

VS Hpemde 3255 (215 Base damage)

VS Perduable Raptor

Mushroom 13725 0 13725 42.20 % 5/0 100.00 % 2745/2745 2745.00
- Armor Shatterer 13725 0 13725 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 2745/2745 2745.00

2745/15 = 183
215 - 183 = 32
So we estimate that the raptor has ~64 more VIT than the LV77 Hpemde (~144 VIT)

This also puts the fodder eft at 134 close to Motenten's estimate of 136 from pdif spikes (base d 2820)

Tutewehiwehi

Mushroom 7650 0 7650 44.02 % 3/0 100.00 % 2550/2550 2550.00
- Armor Shatterer 7650 0 7650 100.00 % 3/0 100.00 % 2550/2550 2550.00

2550 = 170 base damage
170-215 = 45 ~90 VIT difference

Implies the Peiste has ~170 VIT
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By Bahamut.Mizuharu 2013-05-21 01:38:51
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
This isn't exactly Automaton Research - but it's related since it's a large part of the reason I set out to find Armor Shatterer's formula!

Since we now know a bit about what's going on with Armor Shatterer - we can abuse its ratio boost to get an estimate on Enemy VIT based on the VIT of the LV77 Hpemde (80) by WSing them with a constant DEX value!

VS Hpemde 3255 (215 Base damage)

VS Perduable Raptor

Mushroom 13725 0 13725 42.20 % 5/0 100.00 % 2745/2745 2745.00
- Armor Shatterer 13725 0 13725 100.00 % 5/0 100.00 % 2745/2745 2745.00

2745/15 = 183
215 - 183 = 32
So we estimate that the raptor has ~64 more VIT than the LV77 Hpemde (~144 VIT)

This also puts the fodder eft at 134 close to Motenten's estimate of 136 from pdif spikes (base d 2820)

Tutewehiwehi

Mushroom 7650 0 7650 44.02 % 3/0 100.00 % 2550/2550 2550.00
- Armor Shatterer 7650 0 7650 100.00 % 3/0 100.00 % 2550/2550 2550.00

2550 = 170 base damage
170-215 = 45 ~90 VIT difference

Implies the Peiste has ~170 VIT


brb finding out the vit of EVERYTHING in the new areas.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 03:13:41
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Pretty neat trick huh!
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-21 04:17:08
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Just a note on my original vit estimation: I actually calculated a vit range of 134 - 139; I just picked 136 as something in the middle. 134 is also valid for the provided data, so there are no inconsistencies here.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 04:24:53
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Indeed! I just wanted to mention the eft to demonstrate that the method is giving reasonable values by comparing it to something we already had a ballpark for =)

Note that the VIT estimates aren't exact (hence being estimates) but the actual VIT should be plus or minus 1 VIT from the Armor Shatterer estimate
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-05-21 06:41:04
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Yeah, unless fSTR is affected by DEX, which it seems to be. In that case you would overestimate the VIT of every monster you tested.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 10:34:53
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Since I'm using the LV77 Hpemde as an anchor point and constant DEX I don't think that's an issue

If it's an N offset the N offset is the same since I'm always using 162 DEX

If it's changing the fSTR cap I'm only dealing with uncapped situations so that also shouldn't be an issue

We've already seen it give a good estimate for the Eft so I'll look at another known target

Vs LV100 (T) Bluffalo with 162 DEX
2940 = 196 base damage
215 - 196 = 19
So we expect ~38 VIT more than the LV55 Hpemde
And we predict ~118VIT for the Bluffalo (which is exactly what Motenten had tested)

With that in mind the LV98 DC Bluffalo (2955 base damage) have around 116 VIT!
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-05-21 11:22:56
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Until you actually know how monster VIT and Automaton STR/DEX interact, it's probably premature to conclude a monster has that much Vit. For instance, you haven't shown that it's STR-VIT instead of DEX-VIT or DEX-AGI or something else.

Choke or Absorb-VIT would show that VIT is a compared monster stat. Bonus points for showing that AGI is not a compared monster stat.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 12:16:22
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I'm not saying that I can prove anything definitively right now but the values I get are consistent with alternate tests so I doubt it'll end up being a bad estimate

Armor shatterer estimate for eft - 134
Motenten's 1.0 spike estimate for eft - 134-139

Armor shatterer estimate for bluffalo - 118
Motenten's test for bluffalo - 118

I'll try to choke etc later and see what pops out

I've been trying to fit data into a rank calculation but can't get anything that makes sense

An alternate explanation could be that the DEX mod is increasing in tiers which would be weird but would make sense why my attempts to break down the mod fall apart everytime I jump more than 20 DEX
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 12:23:09
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Are there any other targets with high-ish (more than 80) known VIT? I just want to see how consistent the measures are and they'll give me multiple data points for Choke / Frost

I also have some data to collect for Motenten today for another test related to base damage/armor shatterer and I got Omodaka Legs last night so I have an additional bit of freedom with base STR/DEX that don't depend on getting someone else to use a Fragmentation WS

I'm really starting to think it's the DEX portion that's misbehaving and not the STR portion but the mystery remains!

When I try to fit Abyssea Data (+216 DEX) I get modifier values that are a full 5-6% more than what I would expect from outside data

I will toss on Gnarled Horn later and see if something silly like dAGI could be determining the DEX modifier
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 17:39:00
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More data added on the "Sarutabaruta" sheet
I'm currently in the process of adding more - Companion's Roll is a godsend!

https://docs.google.com/a/email.wm.edu/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoEfIbdoAw7adHZCdXBDVXJNak5WenhFOEh6X3A4OFE&pli=1#gid=2

It doesn't necessarily mean anything definitive but there is always a 67-6970 base damage difference between regular ranged attacks and Armor Shatterer
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-21 19:38:34
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It has been pointed out to me by Prothescar that ranged blue magic has a cap of 52 at level 99 which is the same cap implied by the Hpemde data

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103590-What-needs-to-be-tested-thread?p=4992531&viewfull=1#post4992531

224 base d to Saruta Mob
215 base d to 80VIT hpemde
difference = 9
Implying we would cap 18-19 VIT below the Hpemde which would give us STR-VIT = 100-101 implying fSTR2 cap of 52

It doesn't mean anything specifically but it is interesting
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By Asura.Karbuncle 2013-05-21 19:53:59
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This new Mantis avatar confuses and infuriates me.

P.S keeping up with this thread is making me love PUP even more than i already did, which was a lot. Keep on pooting out Info, if theres anything specific you may need, my gimp PUP can help! No Alternator yet!
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-22 03:40:58
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Can absolutely confirm Armor Shatterer as having a 50% Dex mod. Removing that leaves the base+fStr damage value on str-capped AS as solely dependent on skill. EG: At 427 skill and capped fStr, base damage will be 154 before Dex WSC is added in, regardless of Dex.

Current problem is figuring out how to separate base damage and fStr. Turns out that base damage increases by 2 points per ~8 skill interval; it does not increase by 1 point per 4 skill. If we can figure out the base damage derived from skill from the AS data, it'll hopefully make the normal ranged attacks easier to figure out (though the normal ranged attacks seem to imply base damage increasing by 1 point every ~3.5 skill, so may be something completely different).

Spreadsheet with my currently collected data: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0A0wGYYRRdaY0ktSkxwT3ktZzQ/edit?usp=sharing
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-22 04:00:42
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From blue magic damage calculation:

D = floor(Blue Magic Skill*0.11)*2 + 3

Note that the value is *2. That is, skill values that increase the increment will always increase the base damage by 2. That's exactly what we see with Armor Shatterer.

We also know that the value goes up every ~9 skill ranks, which approximates a 0.111 multiplier. That's close enough that I thought I'd check how well it matches.

Overall, it looks like a decent match. I'll need to test various merit levels to verify the tiers, but it looks like it could very well be accurate.
Code
Skill      Base Dmg-DexWSC   Calc Skill Dmg
404                   150               91
410                   152               93
419                   154               95
428                   156               97
437                   158               99


However, if this is the case, that leaves fStr as 59, which seems too high. Since fStr seemed to cap at approximately 107 str vs the rarabs, which have (I think) 7 vit, the dStr cap would be about +100. +100 dStr gives an fStr2 value of +52, 7 points short of what we need. We could arbitrarily compensate for this by making the base damage formula [(skill * 0.11)*2 + 10] instead of [(skill * 0.11)*2 + 3], but we don't yet have a good reason to make such an adjustment.

This would be easiest to verify on the test server, but unfortunately we don't have access to that.

For now, based on the apparent slope of the data, all I can say is that it looks like fStr + the fixed portion of base damage = 62.


Also, if this is indeed effectively a blue magic spell, it won't really help much with figuring out basic ranged damage.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-05-22 04:11:19
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All of life's answers can be traced back to Blue Mage.










That said, to *** ranged attack shots, I need more data for shooting 80VIT Hmpedes. Either:

A) Capped fSTR but uncapped attack

or

B) Capped attack but uncapped fSTR


Preferably B with as many data points as possible. Would have to abuse things like Angon, Frightful Roar, Box Step, Beast Roll, and Dia II/III to make that possible. A RDM/BLU + PUP/DNC should be sufficient. Annoying but necessary.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-05-22 07:35:55
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Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Can absolutely confirm Armor Shatterer as having a 50% Dex mod. Removing that leaves the base+fStr damage value on str-capped AS as solely dependent on skill. EG: At 427 skill and capped fStr, base damage will be 154 before Dex WSC is added in, regardless of Dex.

Don't Sylow's Hpmede tests contradict this?
Code
                     Control : Thunder Maneuver
Level 73    : 76 VIT : 3255  : 3300
Level 74/75 : 77 VIT : 3240  : 3285
Level 76/77 : 80 VIT : 3225  : 3285

If it's just a 50% DEX mod, why does adding DEX while keeping all other variables constant eliminate a VIT-based damage decrease?
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 09:54:10
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I could have gotten two Hpemdes mixed up but I would have had to make the same mistake multiple times since I thought it was strange and retested it.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 10:14:49
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I think it's a flooring thing.

If you calculate WSC for 166 vs 174 DEX you get 70 and 73 respectively so there just happened to be a 3 jump instead of a 2 jump.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 10:29:48
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Wait that doesn't help!
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 11:27:42
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Okay so looking at the data with a 50% modifier in mind and a cap of 52 6str2 at 427 and 424 skill we are always missing 102 base damage from weapon, at 437 we are missing 106 and at 414 we are missing 100.

This appears to correspond to


D= 2*floor(skill*0.11)+10

It makes the Hpemde values inconsistent but I did those tests at like 4am so I'll recheck them when I'm out of linuxland.
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-22 15:49:05
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Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
Fenrir.Motenten said: »
Can absolutely confirm Armor Shatterer as having a 50% Dex mod. Removing that leaves the base+fStr damage value on str-capped AS as solely dependent on skill. EG: At 427 skill and capped fStr, base damage will be 154 before Dex WSC is added in, regardless of Dex.

Don't Sylow's Hpmede tests contradict this?
Code
                     Control : Thunder Maneuver
Level 73    : 76 VIT : 3255  : 3300
Level 74/75 : 77 VIT : 3240  : 3285
Level 76/77 : 80 VIT : 3225  : 3285

If it's just a 50% DEX mod, why does adding DEX while keeping all other variables constant eliminate a VIT-based damage decrease?

Hmm. Honestly, I'm not sure how to explain that, regardless of the dex mod. It flat out shouldn't be possible, assuming other factors remained constant.

For each increase in mob vit, control damage went down by 15 (and thus base damage dropped by 1). A thunder maneuver should add a fixed amount to dex, and thus a fixed amount to the final damage. For the first two vit values, damage increases by 3 base damage each, which is exactly as predicted (166 dex => 70 WSC, 173/174 dex => 73 WSC). [Note: It's not indicated whether those Maneuvers are basic +7 stat or enhanced +8 stat, but it works out either way.] For the last one, damage increases by 4 base damage.

We can't factor in some sort of limiter on the dex based on fStr because doing so would imply that the final value should be -lower-, rather than higher. We can't say that dex increases the weapon rank, thus allowing higher max fStr, because str remained constant between the two data set, and we weren't capped on fStr to begin with (as evidenced by the Fire Maneuver samples).

Unfortunately there aren't any AF3+2 + Thunder Maneuver data points to compare with on the highest vit targets. For the lower vit targets, the difference is 4 base damage, which again is expected (179 dex => 75 WSC, 186/187 dex => 79 WSC).

Analyzing the lowest level sample:

76 vit target, 3255 damage == 217 base
Assuming 427 skill (not specified on spreadsheet), base damage from skill is 92+x
Dex WSC is 166 * .5 * .85 = 70
Str is 162; dStr is 86; fStr2 is 45

Total base damage is 92 + x + 70 + 45 = 207 + x
207 + x = 217
x = 10

That matches the fixed base value implied by my test data as well.


Analyzing the vit 80 target:

80 vit target, 3225 damage == 215 base
Assuming 427 skill (not specified on spreadsheet), base damage from skill is 92+x
Dex WSC is 166 * .5 * .85 = 70
Str is 162; dStr is 82; fStr2 is 43

Total base damage is 92 + x + 70 + 43 = 205 + x
205 + x = 215
x = 10

Everything is a proper match, again.


Now the Thunder Maneuver vs vit 80:

Actually, the math isn't going to show anything different from what we already know, but I did notice something interesting. Vit 80 target with TM has exactly the same damage as Vit 80 with FM, which is the only instance of that being the case in all the samples. It's also exactly the same damage as that seen by the vit 77 targets with TM above it in the column.

At this point I'd expect a high likelihood of human error, of not completely entering the new value, and Excel copying the value that matched it from earlier in the column after typing '32', since the only values above it were 3300 and 3285. If he allowed the auto-complete to take over, that would explain the problem.

I'll see if I can test this.
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-22 16:21:41
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Test:

Sharpshot/Sharpshot
Attachments: Drum Magazine, Heatsink, Auto-Repair 1/2.

Dropped from 1 to 0 ranged merits, used AF3+2 pants for 427 total skill. Don't want to increase merits yet because there's still a few other skill tiers in the middle I want to test.

AF3+2 hands not used. Alternator used.

Base Str: 92 + 70 = 162
Base Dex: 96 + 70 = 166

Target: level 77 hpemde (80 vit)

Test with basic Thunder maneuver (173 dex): 3270 damage

So, yes, it appears there was an error in Sylow's data. 3270 is exactly the +3 base damage expected.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 16:26:19
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looks like Armor Shattere is a closed case then, and should provide insight intothe ranged attacks.
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-05-22 16:28:10
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Okay, useful then! Good deal!
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By Fenrir.Motenten 2013-05-22 16:49:45
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Will post a writeup for vit testing using this in the Test Instruments thread.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 16:52:58
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So the difference between Armor Shatterer damage and normal ranged damage seems to always be 67-70 but the value is not constant for constant skill level and varied DEX or constant DEX and varied skill level implying that both the DEX mod and the base damage calculation are different in some way

Occasionally regular ranged attacks do a really strange low damage number

The low damage hits are always divisible by 3 however so they don't appear to be log-error'd melee hits

The damage could be calculated in two segments with one using fSTR instead of fSTR2 and a different base damage calculation and either the same DEX mod or a different one
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2013-05-22 16:54:57
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IIRC, we came up with a similar skill relationship to the one described for armor shatterer the last time we tested normal ranged attacks. They also depend on both str and dex.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-05-22 17:04:35
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Armor Shatterer Summary

Base Damage
Code
 2* floor( Automaton Ranged Skill * 0.11) + 10


STR Portion

Uses fSTR2 with a cap of 52 (dSTR ~ 100)

DEX Portion

DEX modifier of 50%
α = 0.85 (same as players)

Magnification/FTP
5.0

pDIF

Appears to follow ranged pDIF with a cap of 3.0 (same as for players)
The WS comes packaged with an as yet unquantified but very significant attack boost effect that allows it to cap on even very high level targets

Additional Effect

-40/256 defense (~15%) with priority 5 (along with Corrosive Ooze and Frightful Roar meaning it overwrites everything)

The duration varies with TP but I'm not sure on the base duration

The probability seems to be quite high that the effect lands even against high level targets
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