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Thief in VW
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 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 02:50:47
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Ah, thanks for clearing that up.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-25 05:40:40
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I really wonder about DNC. The thing holding me back the most is that I have to spam evis while waiting for SA/TA timers. With one timer at 50 seconds and the other at 60 seconds, more than half of my WSs is just spamming Evis. I really have no doubt that a THF can easily be on par with any job if only all of our WSs can be stacked with SA/TA. I'd hate to think how much Evis a DNC would have to spam given that Climatic Flourish is on a 1:30 timer.

I find that Exenterator is much more powerful than Evisceration agaisnt anything where level correction no longer destroys you (Jeuno/Zilart TIII). The only thing I've done on Jeuno II is Lamorak, where I either parse extremely well or somewhat mediocre, depending on how often my steps/WS get through shadows (no landed stes means no BF climactic rudra's, and a climactic'd Rudra's to a shadow is something that makes me want to cry IRL) or how often I die.

On anything where pure melee damage can get through, DNC holds up much better. But it's still not going to do better than a good WAR/MNK/SAM.



The image is a bit more surprising when you consider that I was in the reject-no-buff PT.

As much as I used to rag on Building Flourish, it's what saves DNC in VW, because it lets us power up Exenterator/Rudra's to ridiculous levels pretty much every time it's okay to use it. Attack +25% is really sweet to have around.

To be honest, THF and DNC play very similarly in Voidwatch. I'd imagine where they'd start to differentiate is anything where defense and/or evasion is exceptionally high (although thf does have feint, but idr how long that lasts). DNC can cap accuracy more easily, and has more tools to boost attack during weaponskills (Building Flourish is potent). Still, THF has considerably better weaponskill options, soooo.

tl;dr I don't really have a point, but I'm really glad to see THF get native DWIII so it can sub something other than NIN. :)
 Phoenix.Sehachan
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By Phoenix.Sehachan 2011-12-25 06:43:41
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Who cares if you outparse your friends/people you do the event with. If we have a good war, sam, or whatever good dd no one will miss your thf, ever. In VW you need as many procs as possible and thf is at the bottom of the list for a spot.
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2011-12-25 06:46:25
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Bismarck.Sylow said: »
I'm really glad to see THF get native DWIII so it can sub something other than NIN. :)

This so much.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-25 06:55:11
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Phoenix.Sehachan said: »
Who cares if you outparse your friends/people you do the event with. If we have a good war, sam, or whatever good dd no one will miss your thf, ever. In VW you need as many procs as possible and thf is at the bottom of the list for a spot.

Procing is easier than ever, honestly. I honestly think people have a stick up their *** about it. I have never done VW with an "ideal" setup (all procs present), and I also haven't seen a VWNM drop since the white proc update without at least capped red. And to be honest, I could care less if blue is capped, I don't generally have enough room for the NPC trash after the 3rd fight anyway.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 07:32:15
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Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I can't remember the last time a DRG or a DRK outparsed me.
This made me lol. Resolution says hi

Bismarck.Ihina said: »
Coming from a career THF with a mandau and a twashtar, throwing out 4-5k damage/minute consistently is still a valuable asset.
Good job doing what I can do on DRK in a few seconds.
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 15:01:30
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How many seconds? 10?

Nah, let's give you 30 seconds to do 4-5k damage.

That means you can do 8-10k damage in 1 minute. Every minute.

That means you can do 80-100k damage in 10 minutes.

That also means you can solo DD any tier6 in 15 minutes assuming you can stay alive.

What? You can't? I didn't think so either.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 15:02:37
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Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Bismarck.Ihina said: »
I can't remember the last time a DRG or a DRK outparsed me.
This made me lol. Resolution says hi

Except it's completely possible that Ihina has outparsed Caladbolg DRKs who would be completely unaffected by the addition of Resolution. I can't imagine a situation, besides owning a Ragnarok, where a non-Caladbolg DRK is suddenly passing up Caladbolg DRKs because of Resolution. Even if it is superior to Torcleaver, I don't understand how you are making up for the ODD.

Quote:
Good job doing what I can do on DRK in a few seconds.

Yes because I'm sure you swing for 1k a second. Or are you imagine that you lead with a WS, which any job can do.

I don't understand the whole 2H DDs feeling so much pride in themselves just because SE crutched the ***out of them with Hasso and changing the 2H formulas.
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 15:30:16
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Siren.Kiyara said: »
Coming from a career thf with mandau, I can attest that thf has pretty much no place towards end game HNM mobs period.

This is an incorrect paraphrasing. As a THF who absolutely abhors solo/lowman situations and whose focus has always been on end game HNM performance, I can attest to the fact that job WAS completely viable in End Game.

THF's deficiency End Game is a "relatively" recent problem. Elaborated on below.

Quote:
We are by far the worse DD of the pack. Any 2 handed job can outdo any thf in dmg and dps on high lvl HNMs (factor in the skill lvl and gear of course). I pretty much just sneak attack and trick attack and sit back 90% of the time because I'm completely useless on the front line. The fact I feed the mob too much tp and my hits not making up for that fact makes thf useless.

During 75 cap it was hard, but it was definitely possible to be competitive or even the top with Mandau. The problem was stigma associated with gimps. A gimp WAR can get carried by the sheer imbalance of the class. THF cannot. See my Gatling Gun vs. Sniper Rifle analogy.

With how the game has evolved we need to be rescaled more than other jobs. Beforehand relics were rarities, but it's a fair assumption now that a DECENT player has AT LEAST an Empyrean, we need an overhaul of SA/TA, and stances similar to Hasso (or just the ability to use Innin).

Previously a complete THF had a 3-5% haste advantage on most jobs due to the somewhat rare ability to equip a haste body. We don't have that anymore given how overpowered AF3 is and how accessible it is to even mediocre WARs and DRKs and SAMs

Also, previously a trade-off existed where 2H weapons excelled in high defense mobs where we fell off, but the extra dmg and attack didn't do much on easier fare. Then they imbalanced it because of whining and now 2H weapons rape on everything.

Post August 07 Hasso/2H patch, you could still do "okay" on many mobs, but you could only really match the designed imbalance with Mandau. The leap between Mandau and the next best dagger was gigantic compared to other relics and the next best, and that is what allowed us to catch up. Mandau's ability to bootstrap us up is probably compromised now with how imba Ukkon and Verethragna are respective to their second best options.

The problems THF now experiences in Voidwatch are unique to the dumbfuckery inherent in the Voidwatch system combined with the dumbfuckery of adding jobs for the sole purpose of appeasing casuals who want something different without keeping balance in mind.

Again see my Gatling Gun vs. Sniper Rifle analogy. We remain deadly in the right hands, but we could definitely stand to be augmented.

Quote:
As far as dmg overall goes, thf has to be extremely top notch in terms of gear and merits to make our dmg acceptable for end game. The fact you need a relic or empyreal calibur of weapons to be considered for dding on end game mobs is pretty damn demanding.

I'm not taking anything over Ukon or Verethragna, and after those the other jobs still need Empyrenas to get in over WAR. WAR's always been the golden boy of this game.
 Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis 2011-12-25 15:31:39
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Quote:
Good job doing what I can do on DRK in a few seconds.

Quote:
Yes because I'm sure you swing for 1k a second. Or are you imagine that you lead with a WS, which any job can do.

Are you trying to defend the guy saying that "4-5k damage/minute" is good?
[+]
 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 15:34:12
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Quilin parses


This was the parse from the last Quilin we did, THF came in second 2 out of the 4 parsed, 1st 1/4 parsed and 4th in the last Quilin.

A well geared THF can output a lot of damage, only beaten by a well geared Ukon war(not trying to proc) Masa sam who 2hr'd, and an Amano Sam.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 15:45:27
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Code 
[pre][b]Fight #   Enemy                   Killed?   Killed By           Start Time   End Time   Fight Length   Exp   Chain[/b]
1         Pil                     True      Sacaru                 1:51 PM    1:54 PM       00:02:40 16170       0

[/pre]


Sry no THF to take up all my dmg that I did (btw no I'm not a Ukon WAR or Masa SAM nor did I use my 2hr and no I don't own an Amano sry :/
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 16:00:16
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Except it's completely possible that Ihina has outparsed Caladbolg DRKs who would be completely unaffected by the addition of Resolution. I can't imagine a situation, besides owning a Ragnarok, where a non-Caladbolg DRK is suddenly passing up Caladbolg DRKs because of Resolution. Even if it is superior to Torcleaver, I don't understand how you are making up for the ODD.

btw I own a Ragnarok D:
Totally unaffected bruh

Bismarck.Aerison said: »
Quilin parses


This was the parse from the last Quilin we did, THF came in second 2 out of the 4 parsed, 1st 1/4 parsed and 4th in the last Quilin.

A well geared THF can output a lot of damage, only beaten by a well geared Ukon war(not trying to proc) Masa sam who 2hr'd, and an Amano Sam.
Qilin parse etc
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-12-25 16:00:32
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You guys must be doing this with some shitty, mnk, wars, sams, drks, drgs, if thf is doing more damage then all of them.

THF has no place in VW.
[+]
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 16:06:16
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Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
btw I own a Ragnarok D:

Then you fit in the very very very small niche where the new GSword WS is relevant to affecting DRKs.

Congrats, SE fixed your egregious error in going for Ragnarok over Apocalypse lol.

Sylph.Kimble said: »
You guys must be doing this with some shitty, mnk, wars, sams, drks, drgs,.

Really shitty MNKs and WARs. About par for the course for SAM and DRK. lolDRG.
 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-12-25 16:10:45
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
btw I own a Ragnarok D:

Then you fit in the very very very small niche where the new GSword WS is relevant to affecting DRKs.

no
 Sylph.Kimble
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-12-25 16:10:55
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lolDRG is just said by morons stuck in 2005.

SAM and DRK are strong outside of abysessa. I don't know why people act like abyssea applies to the rest of the game.
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 16:12:55
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
btw I own a Ragnarok D:

Then you fit in the very very very small niche where the new GSword WS is relevant to affecting DRKs.

Congrats, SE fixed your egregious error in going for Ragnarok over Apocalypse lol.
Even pre Resolution Ragnarok was still a lot better than Apoc as far as DDing goes. DoT does matter and when your crit rate is around 50%+ then your doing something right :/

oh and btw, my Ragnarok is only 85 and the only thing Rag has going for it with Resolution is ACC+ maybe. It doesn't give any extra benifit. Any DRK should be able to outparse the best THF if they are 5/5 Resolution with a decent gear set
 Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2011-12-25 16:13:05
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Affinity was doing well that night, before you came; he was emp MNK. He beat me the first fight by a small margin, then I beat him the rest of the runs. I think he just started slacking at the end from fatigue.

For some context, Durandel, Eburo and Legendhealerr were all Ukko WARs. Rino was a Masa SAM, Luftig a Kannagi NIN, Funstealer a Gandiva RNG. I think Tylerderdin was a DRG.

Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Code 
[pre][b]Fight #   Enemy                   Killed?   Killed By           Start Time   End Time   Fight Length   Exp   Chain[/b]
1         Pil                     True      Sacaru                 1:51 PM    1:54 PM       00:02:40 16170       0

[/pre]


Sry no THF to take up all my dmg that I did (btw no I'm not a Ukon WAR or Masa SAM nor did I use my 2hr and no I don't own an Amano sry :/
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

I'll admit that is impressive, but do notice that I was contesting the proposal that any throw-away player on a 2handed DD can outdo any THF. I never claims that the best DRK can't beat the best THF. I've noted previously that THF is severely limited by SA/TA timers. The higher we get up there, the more we fall behind because of our timers. I also called 4-5k/minute "a valuable asset" rather than good or amazing damage.

Now, given that you put out 14 WSs in 2:40, averaging 3k damage/WS, I'm curious what your buffs were. As you can imagine as a THF, my 4-5k/minute and I will be lucky to get haste.
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2011-12-25 16:13:46
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
lolDRG.
Just saw this, immediately recognized as a troll.
Nothing to see here, move on, etc.
 Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis 2011-12-25 16:17:55
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Quote:
Now, given that you put out 14 WSs in 2:40, averaging 3k damage/WS, I'm curious what your buffs were. As you can imagine as a THF, my 4-5k/minute and I will be lucky to get haste.

Continuous staggers, repeated use of TP wings, stalwarts, berserk, aggressor, and either a brd or cor no doubt. This kind of thing is fairly common for VW.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 16:24:16
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Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis said: »
Quote:
Now, given that you put out 14 WSs in 2:40, averaging 3k damage/WS, I'm curious what your buffs were. As you can imagine as a THF, my 4-5k/minute and I will be lucky to get haste.

Continuous staggers, repeated use of TP wings, stalwarts, berserk, aggressor, and either a brd or cor no doubt. This kind of thing is fairly common for VW.
Miser's/Chaos were the only outside buffs that I had apart from VW temps and self buffs
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
 Leviathan.Brook
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By Leviathan.Brook 2011-12-25 16:30:55
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Can a whm with a warp club out parse a ukko's war after the nerf?
 Sylph.Gredival
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By Sylph.Gredival 2011-12-25 16:31:05
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Sylph.Kimble said: »
SAM and DRK are strong outside of abysessa. I don't know why people act like abyssea applies to the rest of the game.

It's not that they are weak, it's just that trying to group them with WAR and MNK is absurd.

What I said earlier still applies. You put the WARs and MNKs in the pure DPS slots.

All other jobs, including SAM and DRK, are only brought to proc. Can their damage be decent? Sure, but so can a THF's. THF is *uniquely* useless because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and make the party hit faster (and do other token things)

Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Even pre Resolution Ragnarok was still a lot better than Apoc as far as DDing goes. DoT does matter and when your crit rate is around 50%+ then your doing something right :/

I had a LSmate with both Rag and Apoc, and at that point the impression I got between the two weapons from him was that Apoc was generally superior.

Scourge aftermath only adds 10%-15% crit rate, which is comparable to Mandau's aftermath. What does the actual weapon add?

Quote:
oh and btw, my Ragnarok is only 85 and the only thing Rag has going for it with Resolution is ACC+ maybe. It doesn't give any extra benifit. Any DRK should be able to outparse the best THF if they are 5/5 Resolution with a decent gear set

This was the point in bringing in the Caladbolg comparison. Part of what makes the Empyreans strong is the Aftermath. Even lackluster weapons will give a tremendous DOT boost, which you yourself concede is important, from just the ODD.

Assuming that a good THF can already be competitive with a Caladbolg, which includes an Aftermath, I don't see how getting a strong WS makes you automatically competitive just from the superior WS.

This is why I mentioned Rag in my first post, because the hidden triple helps to automatically compensate for the missing aftermath and isn't tied down to using a specific WS.
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By Sylph.Kimble 2011-12-25 16:33:42
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I more put DRK, SAM and DRG into the "we do better damage then thf and actually bring procs to the table"

Anything thf can proc, DNC can as well as add their own procs.

SAM, DRK and DRG can deal better damage then THF and also bring their own procs, making thf 100% useless in VW.
 Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mitosis 2011-12-25 16:34:18
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Sylph.Kimble said: »
SAM and DRK are strong outside of abysessa. I don't know why people act like abyssea applies to the rest of the game.

It's not that they are weak, it's just that trying to group them with WAR and MNK is absurd.

What I said earlier still applies. You put the WARs and MNKs in the pure DPS slots.

All other jobs, including SAM and DRK, are only brought to proc. Can their damage be decent? Sure, but so can a THF's. THF is *uniquely* useless because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and make the party hit faster (and do other token things)
I lol'd
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 Bismarck.Aerison
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By Bismarck.Aerison 2011-12-25 16:34:23
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Sylph.Gredival said: »
Sylph.Kimble said: »
SAM and DRK are strong outside of abysessa. I don't know why people act like abyssea applies to the rest of the game.

It's not that they are weak, it's just that trying to group them with WAR and MNK is absurd.

What I said earlier still applies. You put the WARs and MNKs in the pure DPS slots.

All other jobs, including SAM and DRK, are only brought to proc. Can their damage be decent? Sure, but so can a THF's. THF is *uniquely* useless because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and make the party hit faster (and do other token things)

No and no, this would be the case pre-shoha/resolution, but not any more. I take it you did not look at the parses that were on this page?


Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Code 
[pre][b]Fight #   Enemy                   Killed?   Killed By           Start Time   End Time   Fight Length   Exp   Chain[/b]
1         Pil                     True      Sacaru                 1:51 PM    1:54 PM       00:02:40 16170       0

[/pre]


Sry no THF to take up all my dmg that I did (btw no I'm not a Ukon WAR or Masa SAM nor did I use my 2hr and no I don't own an Amano sry :/
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

I was only referring to the one Quilin parse that I showed, not in general. Taking things out of context.
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2011-12-25 16:35:31
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SAM can also tank Lancing Lamorak!

...just putting that out there.
 Quetzalcoatl.Generic
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-25 16:41:49
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Bismarck.Aerison said: »
Sylph.Gredival said: »
Sylph.Kimble said: »
SAM and DRK are strong outside of abysessa. I don't know why people act like abyssea applies to the rest of the game.

It's not that they are weak, it's just that trying to group them with WAR and MNK is absurd.

What I said earlier still applies. You put the WARs and MNKs in the pure DPS slots.

All other jobs, including SAM and DRK, are only brought to proc. Can their damage be decent? Sure, but so can a THF's. THF is *uniquely* useless because there is another job that can proc Daggers who can also heal and make the party hit faster (and do other token things)

No and no, this would be the case pre-shoha/resolution, but not any more. I take it you did not look at the parses that were on this page?


Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Code 
[pre][b]Fight #   Enemy                   Killed?   Killed By           Start Time   End Time   Fight Length   Exp   Chain[/b]
1         Pil                     True      Sacaru                 1:51 PM    1:54 PM       00:02:40 16170       0

[/pre]


Sry no THF to take up all my dmg that I did (btw no I'm not a Ukon WAR or Masa SAM nor did I use my 2hr and no I don't own an Amano sry :/
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.

I was only referring to the one Quilin parse that I showed, not in general. Taking things out of context.
Merry Christmas it's Qilin !
Spoiler Alert! Click to view.
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