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SE does see the problem with pld....
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-08-09 08:26:53
I think they should give pld a draw-in ability. Not because it would be effective... it would just amuse me.
Cerberus.Kelhor
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2011-08-09 08:27:08
To the people who keep suggesting more hate generation abilities; that isn't the problem. I mean, I'd take em, but the real issues are:
1) hate caps the same for everyone
2) DDs can mitigate damage just fine (or better!) while doing damage
3) PLD damage is pretty meh without an empyrean or relic
They've flat out said they aren't changing 3, because they don't want PLD to be able to do "everything".
Now, 1) isn't a huge deal since everyone eventually caps anyway, you just need to make sure that you re-cap faster than the DDs - with jobs like MNK and NIN that swing so fast, this isn't really feasible, but it's a big part of why Joyeuse was so awesome at 75 (Atonement being the other). So to fix this you'd either have to raise the hate cap for PLD only, which would be hilariously broken, or greatly modify hate generation/decay, which they aren't going to do.
So the answer is 2), which is more or less how PLD found its niche in Voidwatch; DDs cant just face tank when MP isn't unlimited, but as Ironguy pointed out earlier, the *second* that SAMs and MNKs can tank VWNMs without too much hassle, PLD is going right back on the shelf.
For now, I'm going to enjoy having a niche to play PLD again, but anyone expecting it to be permanent just hasn't paid attention to XI at all. Everything is cyclical.
/Though maybe they could fix atonement, you know, 750 damage doesn't go as far as it used to
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-08-09 09:00:03
I was skimming the previous "pld QQ" threads
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/1036/pldno-thx/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/13221/is-there-a-point-in-pld-anymore/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/15093/will-pld-be-useful-again-at-lvl-99/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/18322/se-answer-this/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/16855/suggestions-for-pld/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19004/possible-use-for-pld/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19556/paladin-update-ideas-by-dpt-read-this-developers/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20555/an-idea-for-pld-and-provoke/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/22388/incoming-pld-adjustments/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/22721/pld-does-just-fine-rant/
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/23450/july-patch-pld/
and it's astonishing how little the "problems" with pld have changed in (literally) years. It's also amazing how similar the solutions (at least the not rediculous ones) are. I can't believe that SE let it go on this long without at least making an attempt :/
By mortontony1 2011-08-09 11:10:23
I love how everyone complains about Paladin. I've never personally done PLD, but my LS's main tank is PLD and he seems to have no problem with it. Sure he doesn't do the most damage, but that's not the point of the job really. If you wanted to deal massive amounts of damage, you'd be WAR or BLM or something. All I'll say is that his HP rarely dips below ~75% on any mob/NM. In a party setting I don't think PLD is broken, solo is a different story. You can outlast the mob easily, but it's just inefficient.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 11:13:54
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Cerberus.Kelhor
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2011-08-09 11:15:37
mortontony1 said: it's just inefficient.
This is the problem. There is no bigger PLD fan than me, but playing it for anything that isn't Voidwatch generally means I'm choosing to make my group less efficient than it could be. Why would I do that to my friends?
I'm actually a reasonable DD as a PLD (Excalibur, woo!), and I still don't compare to any of my real DD jobs (and none of them are even all that fantastic). So I play it for Voidwatch, where it is effective, and for other content, I play something more appropriate.
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By mortontony1 2011-08-09 11:18:12
See you're taking that out of context, I said in solo play. In a party play (in my parties at least) having our PLD actually increases dmg output. I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die.
Cerberus.Kelhor
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By Cerberus.Kelhor 2011-08-09 11:23:22
Well, outlasting the mob is generally how PLD works in a group setting, too ;)
As for not pulling hate, the hate cap is so low that if you aren't pulling hate from the PLD at least occasionally, you aren't doing enough damage.
As for increasing damage output, there is currently no content outside of voidwatch that is best tanked by a PLD - whatever you're fighting, there are at least two or three jobs that will 1) take less damage and 2) contribute more damage at the same time. This is what we're talking about when we comment on efficiency, and that's why PLD isn't widely used right now.
Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-08-09 11:24:20
mortontony1 said: I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. That's because you sub dnc & are a weak DD, not because your tank is awesome.
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 11:26:09
Bismarck.Altar said: mortontony1 said: I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. That's because you sub dnc & are a weak DD, not because your tank is awesome. Not everyone is blessed with this:
5% > 0% haste. Plus, it makes his paladin feel good.
Ragnarok.Ashman
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By Ragnarok.Ashman 2011-08-09 11:26:21
mortontony1 said: I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or.
I refuse to believe this and I'm a pld proponent.
By mortontony1 2011-08-09 11:26:41
Hey NIN gets damn expensive, especially on things like that damn rabbit in Misareaux
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-09 11:28:54
Ramuh.Austar said: It's not the generation of hate for PLD, it's the keeping it once the DD reach the cap.
It's not even that, you can stay up there at the cap with relative ease.
Cerberus.Kelhor said:
2) DDs can mitigate damage just fine (or better!) while doing damage
3) PLD damage is pretty meh without an empyrean or relic
This ^ Other DDs do not need a dedicated tank on the majority of stuff. Even if they fixed it so PLDs can maintain the target's focus, why bother when other jobs can successfully tank it while killing it faster? It was the same at 75, it's just more obvious to the player base that you don't need a PLD to succeed.
Bahamut.Bojack said: Just make every NM have an Additional Effect of Death on all their melee attacks that only PLD is immune to.
I'm assuming that's a joke, but in regards to making enemies ridiculously hard, and sky rocketing PLDs defensive abilities so much that they become required to fight them, is pretty much going to kill lowman content and shoot us back to 2005 HNM.
Fenrir.Arianna said: A Collaborator/Accomplice - like JA that steals VE from one party member. The VE gained from use of this JA could go beyond the cap, but once it decays, that's it. The PLD is still at the normal enmity cap.
Problem is, that JA will be limited by a recast. Too long and the ability is useless. Too short and it's broken, basically like raising PLD's cap only.
Lakshmi.Razius said: Ive had a lil idea, I don't know if it could be effective or not, or how people would recieve the idea, but what about a PLD only weaponskill that enhances flash enimity, and flash enhancing said weaponskill enimity. Or even making flash and PLD abilities more potent with repeated use of this WS.
More hate tools aren't going to fix PLD. They'll help you cap enmity faster and maintain cap longer. That's it, after that you're still facing the same problem of PLD being inefficient comparatively to other jobs acting as tanks.
mortontony1 said: See you're taking that out of context, I said in solo play. In a party play (in my parties at least) having our PLD actually increases dmg output. I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die.
Yeah. Sorry, any claim that a PLD can maintain hate even 50% of the time is bogus. Even at 75, players intentionally held back to allow PLD to tank. Unless you're doing that (slowing your kill speed), or you just suck, then I'm not buying it.
Bismarck.Altar
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By Bismarck.Altar 2011-08-09 11:29:58
Ramuh.Austar said: Bismarck.Altar said: mortontony1 said: I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. That's because you sub dnc & are a weak DD, not because your tank is awesome. Not everyone is blessed with this:
5% > 0% haste. Plus, it makes his paladin feel good. While I know you're trolling, 10% > 5%!
mortontony1 said: Hey NIN gets damn expensive, especially on things like that damn rabbit in Misareaux /sam...
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 11:30:11
Ifrit.Darkanaseur said: Ramuh.Austar said: It's not the generation of hate for PLD, it's the keeping it once the DD reach the cap.
It's not even that, you can stay up there at the cap with relative ease.
It is that though, because whoever takes an action last will the target of attention.
Cerberus.Tidis
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2011-08-09 11:32:07
mortontony1 said: Hey NIN gets damn expensive, especially on things like that damn rabbit in Misareaux Does it? I'd say I'm a fairly bandwagon NIN and that thing couldn't touch me.
PLD 4 life.
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-09 11:35:29
Yeah I know, basically an enmity system overhaul is required, but as it stands the first solution is to create situations that require a PLD. Can swing pretty fast with a sword fully hasted, but overall it doesn't matter, because the MNK or WAR is plenty enough majority of the time.
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By Fenrir.Skarwind 2011-08-09 11:48:52
I'd rather tank on WAR myself. I always have whether people have liked it or not. It is just more acceptable.
it's not hard working on a nice PDT/MDT set. Also if your RR/Ukkos won't be pulling hate. Waste of an Empyrean.
Edit: I agree with what has been said before though. Increase PLD's hate cap over other jobs.
By mortontony1 2011-08-09 11:51:50
Fenrir.Skarwind said: Waste of an Empyrean.
Have to get one first, just using an AH GA
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-08-09 11:53:34
Ramuh.Lorzy
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By Ramuh.Lorzy 2011-08-09 12:02:57
Ramuh.Austar said: Bismarck.Altar said: mortontony1 said: I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. That's because you sub dnc & are a weak DD, not because your tank is awesome. Not everyone is blessed with this:
5% > 0% haste. Plus, it makes his paladin feel good. cutest pictar evar D:
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Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 12:11:32
Ramuh.Lorzy said: Ramuh.Austar said: Bismarck.Altar said: mortontony1 said: I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. That's because you sub dnc & are a weak DD, not because your tank is awesome. Not everyone is blessed with this:
5% > 0% haste. Plus, it makes his paladin feel good. cutest pictar evar D: I take requests! :D
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-09 12:22:34
mortontony1 said: See you're taking that out of context, I said in solo play. In a party play (in my parties at least) having our PLD actually increases dmg output. I'm currently a fulltime WAR and because our tank is so awesome, I can keep berserk up and spam Raging Rush (Ukko's soon) with no fear I'll pull hate or, because berserk is up/don't have good tank gear, take massive amounts of damage and die. I'm confused, did you just call Devlin an awesome tank?
By mortontony1 2011-08-09 12:23:17
Yes yes I did
Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 12:23:39
Yeah dude, check out that sattva ring.
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Fenrir.Gradd
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By Fenrir.Gradd 2011-08-09 12:25:34
That Sattva he has is pretty amazing, makes you hold hate 100% of the time, especially if you TP in it. OTHER PLDS THAT DONT HAVE ONE DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE JOB. /endsarcasm
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-08-09 12:28:27
mortontony1 said: Yes yes I did I've outtanked him NIN/DNC while dualboxing a BLM for grellow procs. All he did was feed the NM a shitton of TP along with the THF and lolBST that were also there (especially the BST, contributed nothing else to the fight), which was fun *** times considering it was Quasimodo. 2k spikes every 10 seconds, anyone?
Calling a Skeld Sword, Sattva Ring, Knight's Earring PLD awesome is laughable.
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Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-08-09 12:29:55
what a champ. i wanna be that guy.
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but from the looks of it doesn't know/unsure of how to fix it.
for the lazy:
Quote: We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.
In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.
Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)
Thoughts?
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