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New games suck... or is it just me?
By Afania 2024-09-06 08:52:08
Is this a successful release to you?
It depends. Whether a game is successful or not is case by case basis. A game that spent 1 year and 50 people to develope has a very different successful standard from a game that spent 5-8+ years with 300+ people.
If a game sold 100k copies in first 4 months and break even, then the developer decided to make their next game, any subsequent sales still counts and helps subsequent development.
Does subsequent sales matter less than initial sales? Maybe. But matters less=/=irrelevant.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 08:56:45
Stop playing. You put = sign between buying game on sale and pirating it. You also brings up morality in the same comment in the sarcastic tone. I'm not gonna interact with you anymore, because you clearly baiting right now. Stop cherry picking and read the entire post.
For the third time.
I also only buy games during sales Fun fact: You're no better than the pirates if you're waiting 2 years to buy fully finished games at 75% off. At that point, the people looking at the financials have deemed whatever they were selling a bust. I'm sure your moral compass is satisfied though. That middle sentence binds everything together. You cant omit that part and go "you talked about buying on sale and piracy and morality" and ignore the guts where I clearly mentioned that the publisher will have already deemed the release a success or a bust.
By Afania 2024-09-06 08:57:47
I'm not putting words in your mouth.
What?
You literally brought Ubisoft and referenced their "long tail sale to generate more revenue".
Why would you bring up Ubisoft and their business strategy in this current discussion if you didnt think they were doing great?
I said more revenue, not good revenue. I am not sure how you read it wrong if nothing that I said implied Ubisoft made good revenue.
If you publish a game and sell 10000 copies then it stops selling. You decided to do a 25% discount, and the game sold another 2000 copy with 25% discount. Those extra copies are still "more revenue" that wouldn't exist otherwise.
It doesn't matter if initial sale is successful(good revenue) or not. The point is that copies sold with discount is still more revenue.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 09:02:25
By Afania 2024-09-06 09:07:19
Nobody is sitting there reevaluating their whole ethos on the basis of hurting or helping game developers(hopefully).
Nobody? I must be seeing ghosts when people ***on piracy killing the industry back in 1999-2002 on game forums.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and I doubt most of the internet arguments on personal belief would change people's mind anyways. I only corrected people's generic choice of words like "multi million dollar company". Which is just too vague.
 Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2852
By Shiva.Thorny 2024-09-06 09:10:52
I must be seeing ghosts when people ***on piracy killing the industry back in 1999-2002 on game forums.
People bitching about it aren't the same people pirating, so I wouldn't say they're reevaluating their ethos. They're pushing it, sure, but is there any evidence they're convincing anyone else?
By Afania 2024-09-06 09:18:10
No, it doesnt. Which is why I said what I said, and which is why, despite whatever *** pandering you want to make about your morals, it was not wrong.
I said nothing about morals, nor I even care about morals. You are the one who even mentioned the term morals lol.
Every single piracy discussion that I made is from the position of economy and industry development.
Do copies sold at a discount well after the release date bring fired developers back or un-close shutdown studios?
In western countries, probably not. Western companies run studios drastically different from Asia. Developers are hired for a project, then people are layoff if there are no more projects. So it's common to see a western studio shut down after the project is done.
But as long as investors made money back, the same money may still go to the next project within the same industry. So someone somewhere will get jobs.
The worse case is investor don't make money back from subsequent sales. Then they stop investing in the gaming industry altogether, the number of job decreased as a result.
From this perspective subsequent sales does matter.
By RadialArcana 2024-09-06 09:29:08
The western gaming industry is not sustainable, a crash is coming and that's a good thing.
By Afania 2024-09-06 09:31:19
I must be seeing ghosts when people ***on piracy killing the industry back in 1999-2002 on game forums.
People bitching about it aren't the same people pirating, so I wouldn't say they're reevaluating their ethos. They're pushing it, sure, but is there any evidence they're convincing anyone else?
One thing that I know for sure, in 1995-2002 a Chinese single player game would never reach wukong level of sales despite the lack of competition. Despite some of the IP was super successful back then, they didn't reach this kind of sales and not even close.
It's honestly mindblown to see this many Chinese people actually buy Wukong to support Chinese dev instead of pirating. This just didn't happen back then.
Another evidence is steam review. Many steam review for old games actually came from Chinese people who pirated the game when they were a poor kid, then they felt guilty as an adult, so they re-purchase the game on steam. They often mentioned it in reviews since their playtime is low.
So I would say it is definitely possible that people may change their mind on piracy over the year. It depends on the individual and the community that they're in.
It's also more likely to happen to countries that was poor in 1990 but rich now. Since they can afford more games now. In that case they changed their mind on piracy because their financial situation changed.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 09:33:11
Goyslop gets pirated.
Good games get financially supported.
It's also more likely to happen to countries that was poor in 1990 but rich now. Since they can afford more games now. In that case they changed their mind on piracy because their financial situation changed. 
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By Afania 2024-09-06 09:59:47
Nobody is sitting there reevaluating their whole ethos on the basis of hurting or helping game developers(hopefully).
I think you also have to view the whole issue from a sense of regional development difference.
For you, game developers making money is probably just the matter of you putting your money in some random multi million dollar company's pocket for entertainment. And you always have many other choices for entertainment. So it's probably less relevant to you.
For people currently buying Wukong in China like mad, it's an act of cultural export and projecting national pride, or finally have a story told to the world from their perspective. The act of buying the game to support the dev doesn't even have the same weight depend on people.
So why would anyone care about game developers making money? That's probably part of the reason.
 Lakshmi.ByrthVIP
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6194
By Lakshmi.Byrth 2024-09-06 10:21:34
I liked Nier Automata and Hades.
For me, gaming at 20+ got boring because games weren't novel enough. Taking FFXV as an example, people acted like the conceit of the game "we're just 4 bros on a road trip" was somehow novel, but "group of guys that have to travel" is every RPG forever and they didn't exactly break new ground in their investigation of male friendship.
Nier Automata was so weird and well executed that it restored my hope for what video games could be.
Hades broke new ground in some ways, but mostly it just delivered a roguelike/RPG with a deeper and more engaging plot than most RPGs, then executed its *** off. I had never been interested in roguelikes before that, so to me it was novel.
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Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 10:23:53
You keep saying Wukong's sales are all cuz China, its not as popular elsewhere, China is inflating those numbers...but heres how Wukong ranks in Steam sales by region from the last week:
USA #2
Brazil #2
Russia #4 (They dont like monké)
Japan #5 (They dont like China)
Turkey #2
Australia #3
Canada #2
By Afania 2024-09-06 11:41:58
You know that traffics in marketing amplify because of algorithm right? The traffic increase from people hyping a product isn't static. It's called Matthew effect, winner takes it all.
Basically it's much easier for a product to spread to different community, if you have 10 million people talking about it, vesus only 1m people talk about it.
Even the lead producer in the interview flat out admit it, he said in order for foreigners to recognize their product, it must do well in domestic market FIRST.
I am not sure why is this even worth arguing if producer himself knows it and talked about it in the interview.
By Rips 2024-09-06 12:29:15
I definitely believe age plays a factor.
We used to look at the world with such wonder in our youth and were able to get sucked into a fictional world, especially online. Now, nothing is new, and with the way the world is now, nothing is shocking.
Perhaps a good book is more preferable than a video game and that’s totally okay.
Lakshmi.Avereith
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1219
By Lakshmi.Avereith 2024-09-06 12:49:25
I'm 38 and I play as many if not more video games now than when I was a kid.
The games haven't changed,but you have, and that's not a bad thing. Everyone decides who they are and what they want. No big to give up something you used to be interested in. People change.
Citation: grew up on nes and old Sierra games. Still love them. This year I've played: visions of mana, Smt v vengeance, elden ring dlc, 13 sentinels, unicorn overlord, lords of the fallen, super Mario rpg remake, paper Mario ttyd remaster, persona 3 reload, like a dragon infinite wealth, ff7 rebirth... And lies of P or maybe that was last year?
Ace attorney investigations collection arrives today for even moooore games, and then metaphor refantazio, and then dragon quest III remake. Etc etc.
And having the time to play stuff is your own decision as well. I have 3 kids, full time job, but I have time for games because I choose for them to be my primary hobby that I love. If you don't have time you probably have things you like doing more. And that's cool.
Games good then. Games good now. You change. No big.
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1352
By Fenrir.Richybear 2024-09-06 13:03:43
Look at Concord being all those #1s
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 14:02:11
Concord shoulda dropped to $10 for the game instead of shutting down and issuing refunds.
Its almost as if such a move wouldnt change the fact the game was a flop, shutting it down and issuing refunds was more beneficial as a tax writeoff compared to selling heavily discounted product to recoup some funds.
By Pantafernando 2024-09-06 14:08:14
The numbers of it were terrible (something like 1k during lunch and dropped 90% after it).
Just keeping the infrastructure and all the investment necessary to make it appealing would further increase the loss.
Plus the damage in Sonys reputation. Trying to erase this sad episode is a valid decision.
Lakshmi.Sahzi
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 204
By Lakshmi.Sahzi 2024-09-06 14:47:41
The ability of the human mind and imagination to fill in the gaps is exactly what makes classic games so much more engaging. It's the same reason most people won't go see a movie of a book they read. Your mind creates it's own connection to what you read and you form a mental vision of that content.
This is probably just a product of how good CGI is these days, but it's something game developers should focus on more. If you looked at screenshots of Starfield and Undertale, nobody would ever think that Undertale is the better game, but it is... by A LOT.
This is excellent and needs to, and once was, discussed at length at film and creative schools. The "Jaws Effect" of not overshowing changed cinema forever and modern games should be following suit.
I'm oldish, not grumpy, love new things, and modern games try to do too much in my opinion. Start with a tight story, don't over reveal, then main character and controls; that's the real game. Everything after that is flavor.
You have to play Playdead Games (you probably did already). "Limbo" is extremely small in scope, hugely cerebral, and is an absolute masterpiece. Their other title "Inside" is more "fun", but Limbo is a better game.
But I agree with the above quote wholeheartedly. Just because it's 2024 and you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD. Studio houses could save enormous pallettes of cash if they understood this.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 143
By Asura.Toeknee 2024-09-06 21:45:21
I liked Nier Automata and Hades.
For me, gaming at 20+ got boring because games weren't novel enough. Taking FFXV as an example, people acted like the conceit of the game "we're just 4 bros on a road trip" was somehow novel, but "group of guys that have to travel" is every RPG forever and they didn't exactly break new ground in their investigation of male friendship.
Nier Automata was so weird and well executed that it restored my hope for what video games could be.
Hades broke new ground in some ways, but mostly it just delivered a roguelike/RPG with a deeper and more engaging plot than most RPGs, then executed its *** off. I had never been interested in roguelikes before that, so to me it was novel.
Nier Automata had the same effect on me and made me start actually buying RPG's to play rather than trying to find the next MMO to no-life after getting bored with FFXI. Need to try Hades, heard nothing but good things but the graphics weren't my favorite at first glance.
Which is part of my, and likely many others nowadays problem - I spend more time watching and reading if a game is worth playing that could've been spent actually trying the game and making that assessment myself. I went from grabbing something at Blockbuster because the cover and 3 little photos on the back looked cool, to watching 7 people review it on YouTube and believing their criticisms before seeing for myself.
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By Zehira 2024-09-06 22:13:11
The western gaming industry is not sustainable, a crash is coming and that's a good thing.
We played cool badass turn-based jrpgs a lot when we were kids. Today, they still make old school turn-based jrpgs but have to put ecchi girls in them so they hope that the genre will survive.
By Viciouss 2024-09-06 22:20:16
No danger of a crash coming, the western gaming industry is fine. Fearmongering is amusing, but that's all it is.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-09-06 22:58:47
Well, we're kind of in the crash already.
Too many games cost 300m and take 5 years to cook. It ain't a great outlook.
It's not like games will cease to exist, but a reckoning cometh. (more of it, anyway. More layoffs, more closures, more mergers, more bankruptcy)
Sony's next game out the oven about to bomb hard as *** too.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4102
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-09-06 23:10:30
iTs JuSt FeArMoNgErInG bYtHe FaRrIGht
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023%E2%80%932024_video_game_industry_layoffs
Quote: Over 10,000 jobs were lost in 2023, and an additional 11,500 jobs were lost in 2024 from January to July.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 143
By Asura.Toeknee 2024-09-06 23:22:33
Idk how some of ya'll say these takes with complete conviction and have no evidence, gaming industry experience or knowledge to back them up. Everyone reads an Op-ed (or Reddit threads) about a game or two and now the ENTIRE western gaming industry is crashing lol
By Viciouss 2024-09-06 23:23:21
Yeah, that nonsense doesn't mean a "crash" is coming. Do you even know what that means? What is a video game crash? It's fearmongering from idiots, not necessarily the "far right." None of the AAA studios are in any danger of going out of business. Certainly not in the West. But hey, you posted another meaningless link, great job.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-09-06 23:28:25
It's just another game of buzzwords. Dont get so hung up on terminology.
What defines a crash. It happened once already.
Quote: The video game crash of 1983 (known in Japan as the Atari shock)[1] was a large-scale recession in the video game industry that occurred from 1983 to 1985 in the United States. The crash was attributed to several factors, including market saturation in the number of video game consoles and available games, many of which were of poor quality. Waning interest in console games in favor of personal computers also played a role. Home video game revenue peaked at around $3.2 billion in 1983, then fell to around $100 million by 1985 (a drop of almost 97 percent). The crash abruptly ended what is retrospectively considered the second generation of console video gaming in North America. To a lesser extent, the arcade video game market also weakened as the golden age of arcade video games came to an end.
You don't know it crashed until it crashed. Call it whatever you want. A recession a downturn a reckoning a crash a stumble a dive it doesn't matter.
Movies, tv shows and games simply can't keep costing 9 figures. There aren't enough warm bodies to make 10 figures from.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 143
By Asura.Toeknee 2024-09-06 23:41:17
Lower profits =/= a crash
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2024-09-06 23:44:36
Lower profits =/= a crash
Step two, of a crash, meaning a crash may becoming.
Step one being too much and too shitty, and it's apparent step one is in full swing.
Step two admits profits lost, layoffs, closures, mergers, bankruptcies. We're here.
The whole thing with xbox is a huge warning sign. They admitted it was unsustainable and wasn't working.
So... I have been increasingly frustrated with new games over years. I feel like so much effort it placed on graphics, lighting, art style, ect and maybe 10% of that effort is placed into gameplay, controls, and story.
My latest purchase was Visions of Mana, which I was pretty excited for. Secret of Mana is in my top 5 all time, I've played Seiken Densetsu 3 translated and while I didn't think it was as good as Secret of Mana, it was still extremely enjoyable. I skipped Trials of Mana since I had already played Seiken Densetsu 3. Vision is just bad. The english voice acting was awful, the characters were bland/generic or just stupid, and I was 3hrs into the game and all I was doing to running 30seconds between CS. Felt like a slightly interactive shitty anime.
Hogwarts Legacy, Visions of Mana, Baldur's Gate 3, Starfield... I felt like all of these super hyped games were absolute duds. Final Fantasy 16 is coming to PC in a few weeks and I'm not sure if I even want to try it anymore. I've heard people say not great things about it.
I know I'm just venting a bit here, but it really sucks being excited for a new game and then the crushing disappointment when it's not fun.
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