Harpe Vs. SK

Kinda lazy so same as my SADE build. Building chr is kinda lame for DE. Barely adds more to base dmg then str or dex, hard to find in high enough quantities in most slots to overcome the str and/or dex you could've gotten in that slot. Generally speaking all that dex plus dagger merits + acc I just happen to get from other slots I'm wsing in covers it fine (ws gorget, acp body, acc ring cause of maccro room concerns, cuch back, fire bomblet, and lol homam feet cause frankly the best for dmg I got in that slot is creek feet). Actually I think it's a bit more acc then my tp set lol.

178(33)+210(37) = 388(70)
178(33)+150(26) = 328(59)

1/(328/388) = 18.29% increase

59/70 = 84.29% of the damage

1.1829 x .8429 = .9971% of the damage of Pharp/blau

They're nearly identical before looking into the fact that blau/sic has wind procs and that Pharp WS won't be 11 DMG higher, it will be only 2 higher since it goes off main hand.

I have tried Blau/Mkris and it stinks really badly (Pharpe/~ would suck even moreso); most of THF damage is DoT based and you kind of kill that with a crappy MKris. The extra TP just isn't worth it.

37-33=4. Also chances are you are hitting an fstr cap on lol daggers during ws and Pharpes fstr cap is 2 higher than blau's

Also the fact that ws dmg isn't that much higher wont really make that much of a difference when you are comparing it to dps of a weapon.

Also fstr assuming you tp in most likely 1-3 fstr at most that would actually put things slightly more in favor of the faster daggers during tp. Then again that wind dmg isn't always good

the 4 difference in damage is more noticeable on bigger mobs (gods kirin ect...) but can be a lot of fun and definitely worth it

Actually Pharpe could make it better if it wasn't for lame rounding. Higher mainhand delay makes your tp gain go up fast when your offhanding a multihit weapon especially ones with lower delay.

And a thf only has to be mostly dot if you make it that way. I make use of my buttloads of tp. Hell really it takes what a good 20 or so hits to get up to 100% tp and if you can't hit 1k solo wtf. Then SA and TA... a good 300-400 each and should get 1 per 100% tp if mobs are fast. Your saying those 20 or so hits actually average 70 dmg each?

Also if you gear a bit more str into your tp set it can help bring it's dot on par with good dot daggers. Let's say you are tping in 3 fstr and on average Mkris hits twice. Means each hit was at about 11 so 22 total. Which would mean it is doing as much as a 19 dmg dagger. Compare that to a sirocco and on average with 3fstr it is doing 22/29~ 75% the dmg. On just that weapon which is the lower dmg of the 2. Not counting wind dmg that would only really be maybe a 10% drop in DOT.


Assuming suppa:

blau/sirrocco with 328 delay will get 4.5 base tp per hit. So 9 per round

blau/Mkris with 370 delay will get 4.7 base tp per hit. So 9.4, 14.1, or 18.8 per round though average of 14.1. 14.1/9*328/370=1.3888 or about 39% faster tp gain than blau/sir.

Pharp/Mkris with 402 delay will get 4.8 base tp per hit. So 9.6, 14.4, or 19.2 but average of 14.4. 14.4/9*328/402= 1.3054 so only 30% increase in tp gain over blau/sirrocco.

So if wsing 30-40% more often and if you using Pharpe main slightly higher SA and TA and WS numbers can't make up for a 10% drop in DOT there is something wrong with your ws set.

Edit: Don't ever use Mkris on stronger mobs. Hitting with an 8 dmg weapon with -1 fstr is gunna make alot of your hits pretty low even 0 lol.

Typo'd the 2 (aka the 4) and even w/ the Fstr, it's still considerably less than 11. The diff during WS is going to be much lower than the diff for TP phase.

By percentage maybe. In amount should only be 4-6 difference in dmg depending on fstr. Which should corresponding almost the same amount in percentage of dmg.

But really who cares? If you can deal the same dps (ok 99.71% close enough) and even deal just 1% more ws dmg you've still dealt more dmg.

No, you're looking at it incorrectly.

Let's say the dmg DIFF is 11 during TP phase and 6 during WS phase. We'll say DoT is 70% and WS dmg is 30%

59/70 = 84.29% of the damage or we can put it in terms of the higher dmg combo
70/59 = 18.6% increase

Now, during WS, instead of being 11 more, it's 6 more


Now of course I can't give exact increase unless I know WS gear, whether TA is up, if its base, SA is up, or if SATA is up, but the increase is going to be LESS than the 18.6% from DoT phase

So let's say its a 70/30 split
18.6 x .7 + WS increase x .3 = % increase, which will be LESS than 18.6

I'll make a fake ws set up rq to do an example

lets say the thf is at 100 dex and using SA

Now it'll be 133 dmg vs 139 DMG
139/133 = 4.5% increase

(18.6 x .7) + (4.5 x .3) = 14.37% increase

So our average DMG increase for all damage (DoT AND WS) is 14.37%

Now 1/(388/328) = 84.54% as fast as the weaker dagger combo

1.1437 x .8454 = 96.7% of the damage as the blau/sir combo

The fact that you're WSing at all, and having less of an increase lowers the total DMG. Pharp/blau would be more likely to win if you weren't ws'ing at all(because the average DMG increase would still be 18+%), than if you were ws'ing normally

Also, i used a 70/30 split. The more WS dmg becomes in the ratio, the lower the overall average as well. For example if it was a 60/40 split blau/sir would win by more, or 50/50, ect.

Lol why the *** do you figure delay into ws dmg?
Hell does this make any sense to you that the combo that does higher ws dmg would do even less in comparison if your ws dmg was a bigger portion of your dmg?

Ws frequencyHell does this make any sense to you that the combo that does higher ws dmg would do even less in comparison if your ws dmg was a bigger portion of your dmg?[/quote]

I'll do an example for you.

Let's say I am on any random job.

My DoT/WS ratio is 60/40

During TP phase, I have
A) 50 DMG
B) 55 DMG

During WS phase, I have
A) 65 DMG
B) 68 DMG


TP: 55/50 = 10% increase
WS: 68/65 = 4.6% increase



60% of the time, I have a 10% increase and 40% of the time, I have a 4.6% increase

(10 x .6) + (4.6 x .4) = total average increase = 7.84% increase


Now let's say my DoT is 40% and my WS is 60%
(10 x .4) + (4.6 x .6) = 6.76% increase

By increasing the WS portion of my damage, my average increase dropped.

This works both ways though. Let's say my WS dmg had a higher % increase than my DoT. Then the higher the WS dmg is in the ratio the more the average increase and the higher DoT is, the lower the average increase.

Example of opposite would be

Let's say

TP
A) 70 DMG
B) 72 DMG

WS
A) 70 DMG
B) 76 DMG

TP: 72/70 = 2.86% increase
WS: 76/70 = 8.57% increase



We'll say the ratio is 70% DoT and 30% WS dmg

(2.86 x .7) + (8.57 x .3) = 4.573% average increase

Let's change that to 30/70 ratio

(2.86 x .3) x (8.57 x .7) = 6.857% increase

Whichever increase is higher (DoT or WS) your average increase will be higher when your higher increase is active more of the time.

In the dagger's case, your increase is higher in DoT phase because you get a lot more DMG+ in TP than you do in WS, so your increase is going to be most when your DoT is the bulk of your dmg. When it takes less priority and WS dmg is the bulk of your damage, then the average increase will be lower.

Ok I'll do some more in depth math.

So figure out how much dmg before Pdif is outputted per weaponskill round and how long it takes.


Assumptions:
6 store tp from rajas and brutal

suppa for 20% DW

Same store tp during DE and that out of the 6 hits or 7 or 8 if you double or triple attack during ws that the first and last one will connect and that at least 3 others will so basic attack round +3 tp every ws. For a total of 5 hits connecting which we will calculate all as main hand even though 1 isn't. This will skew it very slightly into blau/sirs favor but frankly I don't care.

During tp phase fstr will be at 0 during ws at high cap.

Will ws in about 100dex and 70 chr. Yeah that is a little low but I don't have my real numbers on me right now and they round nicely. I'll find my real ones a bit later.

Facts:
SA/TA don't really matter since they are figured after ftp and so are pretty much just adding so much dmg based on dex to your dmg.

TP and dmg is truncated at each step of calculation to the tenths place. And have to round up on attack rounds as we are going for at least enough tp.

DE has ftp of 1.1875 at all tps and 30% dex mod and 40% chr mod.

pdif don't matter cause it is all just relative to each other to find percent dmg not actual dmg. (Though your ws set will probably have more attack in it so if it was figured in it would mean ws would be more favored then actually calculated hear by a little bit)

Using ws gorget and DE so ftp will be 1.2875 for first hit all others will be 1.0

Blau/sirocco have combine delay of 328, Base tp of 4.5/hit, 33 mainhand dmg, 59 combine dmg, swings in 4.4sec before haste, and has an fstr cap of 10.

Pharpe/blau have combine delay of 388, Base tp of 4.8/hit. 37 mainhand dmg, 70 combine dmg, swings in 5.2 sec before haste and has a fstr cap of 12.


Math:

Blau/sir

4.5 * 1.06 = 4.7 * 2 = 9.4tp/attack round

9.4 + 3 = 12.4tp/DE

100 - 12.4 = 87.6tp needed to get to 100%

87.6 / 9.4 = 9.3111 so 10 attack rounds to get to 100% tp.

4.4 * 10 = 44 sec from ws to ws.

10 * 59= 590dmg from meleeing.

33 + 10 + .83(.3*100+.4*70)= 91.14 base dmg on ws.

(91)*5.2875 = 481 dmg from ws.

481+590= 1071 dmg from ws to ws.

1071 / 44 = 24.34dmg/sec from just meleeing and wsing before pdif.

Pharpe/blau

4.8 * 1.06 = 5.088 * 2 = 10tp/attack round

10 + 3 = 13tp/DE

100 - 13 = 87tp needed to get to 100%

87 / 10 = 8.7 so 9 attack rounds to get to 100% tp.

5.2 * 9 = 46.8 sec from ws to ws.

9 * 70= 630dmg from meleeing.

37 + 12 + .83(.3*100+.4*70)= 97.14 base dmg on ws.

(97)*5.2875 = 512 dmg from ws.

512+630= 1142 dmg from ws to ws.

1142 / 46.8 = 24.40dmg/sec from just meleeing and wsing before pdif.

Things to note ws/melee dmg is pretty damn close to the same amount and the differences in pdif on ws set which I didn't figure in could easily make them the same or damn near it. Also Pharpe/blau actually won by a very very small margin.

You're already wrong here. They are figured after FTP, yes, but that doesn't mean they don't matter.

For example. 6 DMG increase from blau to Pharp

39/33 = 18% increase

Now let's add 100 DEX and SA.

139/133 = 4.5% increase. FTP or not, it makes a huge difference.

I'll edit my post as i read through the rest of yours.

Edit:

One thing I see here is that you've only done math for unstacked WS. Stacked WS, the increase will be less, unless you plan to never stacked ws at all.

While it only applies to the first hit, it adds a ton of DMG to the end result of the WS and will make a difference.

For example, let's say we have a 5hit WS w/ your numbers of 91 and 97 base dmg

We have 100 dex, the first hit of each gets +100 DMG

191 + (91 x 4) = 555 DMG
197 + (97 x 4) = 585 DMG

585/555 = 5.4% increase, lower than before, ect.

It doesn't matter because I didn't calculate it like that. I merely caluclated stuff inside ftp only. Anything else would just be an amount added and at best would just after the % difference between the 2 but not which one is bigger or smaller.

It just makes sense making it that way - it's what it is built to do! It's like saying you don't have to make MNK DoT based - it makes far more sense to do so than go against its natural way.

Bearing in mind this applies to lower-end mobs only~

1k~ solo consistently parsed on not a bird, poidh (hell, even on a bird 1k solo is a good average assuming you're not getting something dumb like double Minuet).

What are you giving up for STR? There's nothing stopping the other Dagger gearing for the same STR. You'll get a slight bit more of a % increase from it, but your DoT will still remain far below.

No, you're wrong. It does matter. It doesn't matter how you calculated it. W/o factoring it in, it's wrong. For example, check my edited post.

The percentage difference between the 2 is a little of. Which one is bigger is not. It doesn't matter if you do it on a regular attack or on ws or whatever.

The % doesn't matter. it is still 30 dmg more. I did the pure amount of dmg without using DOt is this % of your dmg and ws is this%. You could add that same amount of dmg doing that to a melee hit. All you've done is add 100 dmg to the total amount of dmg done to both weapons in the same amount of time, meaning the one that was bigger will still be bigger by the same amount albeit it a slightly smaller %.

The % does matter. 30 more DMG at 30 DMG and 30 more DMG at 130 DMG for example are TOTALLY different.

Let's add 30 more DMG to 30 DMG. You are doubling your damage. If you double your DMG at 130, you're not coming anywhere close to doing the same thing. It is relevant.

When you are comparing things, percentage increase is vitally important. Absolute values are rarely useful at all. For instance, a common debate: accuracy vs haste.

Absolute value argument:

10 accuracy is always 5% hitrate [assuming non-capped].
5% Haste is always 5% extra Haste.

In terms of absolute value, they are equal.

Relative value argument:

10 accuracy is always 5% hitrate [assuming non-capped]; this 5% is typically around a 5.2% increase in damage.

5% Haste is always 5% extra Haste and when you are decently buffed, this can equate to a ~10.5% increase in damage.

Therefore, Haste is generally the better option.

It's not the perfect analogy, but do you get the idea? It's only useful to think of things in terms of absolute values in a void. When you are comparing two weapons or such, you have to consider relative changes: in this case, DMG makes less of a relative difference on weaponskill or SA/TA. Absolute value - of course it's the same. Relative value is what matters though.

Also, if there's one irrelevant thing (which isn't the DMG added by SA and TA), FTP is your man. You multiply both DMG by the same number, so the ratio remains the same.

For example, let's just say we have an FTP of 1.15

DMG 91 DMG 97

97/91 = 6.59% increase

Apply FTP

97 x 1.15 = 111.55
91 x 1.15 = 104.65

111.55/104.65 = 6.59% increase.

Except I just proved with math that ws dmg comes damn near that of the melee dmg even in a tradional build. Unless you want to count SA and TA as your "DOT." Given the strength of it's ws SA TA and loldagger dmg I'd say it was more built to spike myself.
Ok birds take 1.25 to peircing so only need to calculate out 800dmg before that.

Well just did the math on a kinda meh ws build before dmg mods and pdif and only hitting 5 hits and came up with 512.

800/512= 1.5625 pdif needed for that. To get that at low pdif you need a Cratio of 1.98 or a Ratio of 2.28 for the lvl 81 colibri. With just Dia III on it they would have 273dec so you would need 622 att

To get that at low pdif you need a Cratio of 1.26 or a Ratio of 1.56 for the lvl 81 colibri. So with them you'd need only 425 att.

Now if you actually had a better ws set and/or ate meat, had more -def, have more hits connect etc pretty easy to do.
Yes it's not smart to gear much str in. And the point of gear str is it will be counted more on the mKris. Assuming only 2 hits on average if you could somehow gear for 8fstr you'd being doing 2*(8+8)= 32 dmg. Which assuming same fstr on another dagger would do same dmg as 1 hit from a 24 dmg dagger.

Right but bigger number is still bigger. And that was all I was proving hence completely irrelavent. Even more so considering how close they were anyways. With that figured in it is just even closer.

True statement but in comparison to total dmg including meleeing it is a different % increase or decrease. And see as the heart of this arguement is over weather the increase to ws dmg outweights the dps it matters alot. Also was there to show how closely melee DOT and ws dmg are.

now i have no clue what you're talking about.

Idk if you're agreeing or arguing with me. To reiterate my point, SA and TA WILL have an effect o your math, which you didn't factor in, unless you never stack w/ either at all.

blau/sirocco ftw, really i look a change, on DOT and WS but more on DOT, and my haste/acc equip no is the best atm

P.S: veg when you can help me to farm organs? only sharks and UFO is my problem :/

Davsa, you really dont know what you are talking about you should just give it up lol.

My point is it wont affect which one has higher DOT since it is adding the same amount they will have the same difference in dmg between them which is what I was looking for. While adding the same amount of dmg to them will change the % difference between them the the fact is Pharp/blau will still come out slightly ahead just even more slightly.
Lol all my math and figuring is correct you just can't understand it

Btw you guys areant even calculating in the wind damage from what ive seen and that is a considerable amount definitely worth noting, although i suppose veggeto isnt bothering cause its already the clear winner without factoring it in. And I assume Davsa is ignoring it so his invalid arguement looks a little better.