Marksmanship VS. Archery

Btw, that's not even close to being correct. Rapid Shot/Snapshot can create instant fires which elimates delay hence breaking the gap in delay vs the 2 bows over time.

The phrase for that is "saving face". Your parses are, to put it simply, incorrect, and your math is piss-poor. If you want to say you don't feel that Vali's Bow is not worth camping and Eurytos' Bow is not worth the price that's one thing, but telling me your Fay Gendawa performs better? Mathmatically, it shouldn't, which suggests either eyeballing, reliance on parsing (inaccurate, you can't create a perfect parse against yourself), or bad math.


No. Snapshot is a % reduction of your delay (2% per merit plus gear), Rapid Shot is an average % reduction. It's like if Haste was randomly applied, you'd have the same end-term result.

I'm starting to think your just a sad kid who is never wrong. Gl with that @.@

Cool story bro.

Wrong. I'm sure this is where you tell me you have an alternate account with 75 rng, right? Uhhuuummm. Well, its called an insta-shot with zero delay.

Quite frankly I don't. Wiki seems to be down and BG-Wiki disagrees so I can't verify what you're saying, but let's assume for a moment it's true. You're the RNG, seems like a safe assumption (though it means BG-Wiki needs an update). What's the activation frequency?

kthxbai

Because I can't do the math if I don't have the job. Right. I suppose my STP math was wrong too? Mmmhmm. We call that "ad hominem".

What's the activation frequency?

Since you're not being forthcoming (running out of things to say that are beside the point?), let's take do the math for 2 RNGs: both with Rapid Shot 5/5, one without Zha'Gho's Barbut and Snapshot Mirke, the other with; assuming 5% Rapid Shot activation rate first and then a second round with 10%. 90 delay ammo each time, naturally.

x% activation rate is the same as an x% average reduction over time.

Scenario 1: 5% Rapid Shot activation rate

Ranger 1: 10% Snapshot

Ebow:
490+90=580*0.9=522*.95=495.9

Fay:
540+90=630*.9=567*.95=538.65

538.65/495.9=1.0862

(540+90)/(490+90)=1.0862

OH WAIT LOL

You're still full of ***. All you had was that it was instant fire instead of a % reduction, but hey, that was never going to change the fact that the % difference was still going to be the same and the math shows it. All that setup was a trap so you'd think you might have a leg to stand on, but nah, you didn't. I only asked for the % so I could be accurate, but you were too slow and it's not like it mattered anyway since the end result is the same.

Can we stop the *** now? Ebow > your Fay

5 hit or gtfo!

Who lit the FYRE under Night's butt? ohohoho! Or soul, whatever. Either way, I love verbal ***-smackings.

So since I started this post I thought I would add a bit. First off Roooodum. I think you are a pretty well informed RNG from what I can tell , but calling out Liquidz for his statement was weak and juvenile at best. Really wish we could erase that part of the discussion. However i do thank you for the info you have provided , very helpful. As I said though , so you do not think this is an attack ,you do seem to know a fare amount about RNG.I guess I cant expect a perfect thread though lol.

Secondly on the subject of Fey anything VS. what everyone else uses (for damn good reason). Although Nightfyre may not have a parse himself to back up his statement , math never lies. Yes there are variables but one thing I learned about SE and JPs in general is the have the math ***worked out very well.As far as Snapshot (atleast according to Wiki) it works exactlty like haste which means Nightfyre was correct. Lastly unless you get the most uber Augs ever on a Fey weapon it is laughable to think it would out parse an E. Bow. I have heard tards say they have outparsed a Hagun with a Onimaru. There is a reason E. Bow is 4 Mil ( on Pandy anyway ) , for the same reason Hagun is 2.8 mil. both these weapons have been around long enough for people to know what works and what is just ***.

If you dont want to spend the money time on a weapon , then hey thats how you want to play the game , but please do not try and convince everyone readint this thread that your lolfey weapon is out parsing what has been proven time and time again to be the best.

In any case if anyone has some real info on RATK VS AGI I would like to heear more about that or any other info to help increase mine and others damage. Thanks again those who have posted helpful info.

Isn't that an irrelevant point, though? Rapid shot will proc with equal percentage on any weapon; only with a specific "Enhances Rapid Shot Rate" augment would the percentage be any higher on the Gendawa, which would mean sacrificing one of the augments that is bringing Gendawa on par with Vali's.

Also, this might just be semantics, but Snapshot is ranged attack's haste and Rapid Shot is instant fire. They're not the same thing and they function differently, and have different percentages of activation.



Lol Roooodum, that's a new one.

I agree, as said before I wasn't feeling the best (I'm still not) and have the flu, so had less patience than normal, hence my angrier than usual reply. I however disagree with the relevanceof bringing this back up, as I think it was covered as much as it needed to be yesterday. Would've worked out better for everyone if we just ignored that, rather than bring it back into consideration. *shrugs*

Thank you for the compliment, however.



Bolded the main point of this paragraph for emphasis. Vali's is such a hard bow to camp, and Eurytos's is so expensive, because they're still the best relic replacement bows. The maths, as many have said, don't lie. You have to literally get the ultimate augments on Gendawa to beat them. Every variable needs to be covered, which includes delay, damage per shot, weapon skills, etc. Revision, can you post the one you use so we have something to work off of?




I'm currently comparing Seiryu's Kote to Blood Finger Gauntlets and will post my results when I'm finished. I've borrowed a friend's Kraken Club to do it. Although I could just tell you now that for weapon skills (presuming we're talking about weapon skills as AGI does nothing for the attack of normal attacks) STR is the way to go. Every Ranger would should tell you that.

Loling at Roooodum myslef now. Unfortunately that was not a smartass turn on your name as to call you rude. As I do not think you are a "rude" person lol. It was actaully me not wanting to scroll up/back to remember what your name was @.@

Lastly as to why I didnt post yesterday about above comment. My only reply is , I was much more focused on playing Tekken and being drunk :D. So sorry for my late arrived 2 cents >.> lol. Thank you though for continuing to research the AGI VS, RATK issue /bow.

Its the opposite, Snapshot is haste but i think you just confused the words for a sec o.~b

The dangers of typing at 3am, lol. I fixed it, thanks for pointing that out!

Its relevent because if there are times when a shot has zero delay, this would decrease the small advantage ebow has over gendawa over time(as far as delay goes).

You'll laugh even more when I tell you the augs I have are mediocre and still beat Ebow. Look, I even have an aug'd ebow in storage that is never used. Its 4-5 mil because its been the best bow for so long its considered a status item. Like I said earlier though, I am just trying to save some people time and money(although it can take a lot of tries to get the correct augs). Scoff if you will but the world is round.

The rapid shot job trait is assumed to be +5%, the hunter's beret another +5% and another +5% on the scout's jerkin, and another +5% from merits. That's +20% max (I don't know why you'd ever use the scout's jerkin to tp in when the +5% snapshot is much more reliable on mirke, on top of that mirke has +10 racc, str+5 and agi+5 so really you're going to have +10-15% rapid shot depending if you have burbut or not, again because the snapshot is more reliable) But for the sake of arguement, even +20% rapid shot doesn't clear that gap as rapid shot would effect ebow too. Snapshot works in delay -% so it effects all ranged weapons in terms of DoT equally, and again, snapshot activates on every shot, rapid shot doesn't, making it much more reliable. I think you're neglecting the fact that rapid shot also affects ebow

No, I understand that Hax. Not in debate. I am just pointing out when there are cases with no delay and your are using both bows at the same time(assuming both bows insta-shot at the same time), in that instance...ebow can not gain ground on gendawa as far as delay.

But you can only use one bow at a time, so how does it have any relevance over which bow is better? Can not compare it to another player, because then you'd have to start doing all the maths for gear differences, attributes, etc, in order to confirm one bow is better than another.

Rapid Shot could proc 0 times in 100 shots on Gendawa, 100 times in 100 shots on E.Bow. Not a valid point to prove Gendawa is better than E.bow. Also, you still haven't posted yours. =\ I really want to see!

PS. Also, you're saying that Rapid Shot will proc and make Gendawa pull away, but how can Gendawa be better than Ebow if it has to have Rapid Shot proc to do this? A Rapid Shot proc on Gendawa would be an advantage over Ebow that, sure, might bring it closer; but then EBow Rapid Shots and it moves ahead again.

Reitterating the fact you can't use this as an argument for Gendawa being better as both bows gain the same probability and benifit of Rapid Shot activation. With the same probability, the only points of comparison are the maths behind the stats on the bows, and Ebow still has the advantage on that one.

I'm not sure if it's been said yet, but Rapid shot arguments are completely HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE. Rapid Shot will be more useful for high delay weapons, but it will proc more often on lower delay weapons.

That's like arguing that DRK needs Haste more than THF >.>

Learn to FFXI, people.

Over time Snapshot and Rapid shot do exactly the same thing. Lets assume you were to shoot 100 arrows and each shot had a delay of 1 second. In the first scenario I'll apply 10% snapshot, in the second 10% Rapid shot, and I will show they are the same over time.

10% Snapshot
Snapshot directly decreases the weapon delay by X%. 1 second decreased 10% is 0.9 seconds. Therefor you would preform 100 shots in 90 seconds

10% Rapid Shot
Rapid shot has X% of reducing the firing delay to 0. Firing 100 shots with 10% rapid shot would mean firing 90 shots at 1 second delay and 10 shots at 0 second delay. Therefor you would preform 100 shots in 90 seconds

As you can see, over time both snapshot and rapid shot have the exact same effect concerning DPS (as DPS = Damage / Time) and therefor for you can add them into one lump sum for all mathematical purposes.

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The second thing one must know is that % reduction will effect a low delay weapon just as much as a high delay weapon in terms of DPS. People often think that because a % decrease in delay will remove a higher number of delay from a high delay weapon than a low delay weapon that it will have more effect on the high delay weapon in terms of DPS, this of course is not true. Lets use two hypothetical weapons to prove this.

Weapon 1
Dmg:10 Delay:10 Seconds
DPS = 1.00

Weapon 2
Dmg:20 Delay:20 Seconds
DPS = 1.00

I have chosen weapons with the same original DPS for the purpose of clarity, and to isolate the difference in Delay. If the original DPS were to differ from each other the % difference between the initial DPS and the % difference in DPS after the delay reduction has been factored in would be the same.

Now lets add in 20% delay reduction (using snapshot or rapid shot or a combination of both would not matter as I have already proven)

Weapon 1
Dmg:10 Delay: 8 Seconds
DPS: = 1.25

Weapon 2
Dmg:20 Delay: 16
DPS: = 1.25

As you can see, a reduction in delay will affect a high delay and a low delay weapon in terms of DPS equally.


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The final thing one must know is that delay reduction DOES effect higher delay weapons more in terms of DPS. Now, this may appear to be contrary to everything I have just said but it's not, because there is one factor we've yet to consider; the delay on the arrow, in other words reload time, which snapshot and rapid shot have no effect on.
To my knowledge the delay of an average arrow is 1.5 second so I will use that as the ammo delay from here on. As before, I will compare two hypothetical weapons; both with equal DPS for the purposes of clearly showing the difference delay reduction makes.

Weapon 1
Dmg:10 Delay: 8.5 seconds + 1.5 seconds
DPS = 1.00

Weapon 2
Dmg:20 Delay: 18.5 seconds + 1.5 seconds
DPS = 1.00

As you can see, we have factored in the reload delay this time, while still maintaining equal equal DPS and a difference in delay. Now let add the 20% delay reduction that we did last time (Note: delay reduction is only applied to the weapon delay, not the reload delay) and see what happens.

Weapon 1
Dmg:10 Delay: 6.8 seconds + 1.5 seconds
DPS = 1.20

Weapon 2
Dmg:20 Delay: 14.8 seconds + 1.5 seconds
DPS = 1.27

As you can see, delay reduction does increase DPS of higher delay weapons more then lower delay weapons. The issue now is this. Lower delay weapons innately have higher DPS then than high delay weapons. This can be overcome by adding enough delay reduction but in some cases it can take a lot to do this, and there is only a limited supply of snapshot and rapid shot available. Hypothetically it is possible for a perfect augmented Fay Gendawa or Gendawa to surpass Eurytos' bow, however it would take a lot more in depth math to determine exactly which is the best and what level of delay reduction is required. All of which I plan to do another time.

Your not understanding what I'm saying. I'm sure in part because I'm not being clear.

I believe what Revision is trying to convey is a situation where rapid shot rate is 100% and comparing two bows under this assumption; the only delay would be the reload time in which case.

Eurytos' Bow
Dmg:71 Delay: 1.5 Seconds
DPS: 47.33

Gendawa
Dmg:76 Delay: 1.5 Seconds
DPS: 50.66

The Gendawa has much higher DPS when rapid shot activates compared to the DPS of Eurytos' bow when rapid shot activates

I worked out the math today and with the help of a graphing calculator I determined that it would take a 41% delay reduction (Combination of both snapshot and rapid shot)for an ANNM augmented gendawa with -6% delay to overcome Ebow in terms of DPS. This is neglecting both tp gain and weaponskill damage however.

As for Fay Gendawa... It has a base delay of 540. In Grauberg delay -10% is a possible augment which would bring the delay down to 486. STR+5 and RATK+20 are other possible augments... Whether it's possible to get all these at the same time however is a different story all together. But if it is possible it would be pretty much equal to Ebow

Where do you get 1.5 seconds for base delay?

Ranged delay is 110 = 1 second. Unless you're using arrows with 165 delay, you won't take 1.5 seconds to reload.

It is possible to get all three of those at the same time but would be unlikely considering those are max @ Grauberg. Working on Xarabard[S] fight now as its believed stats on augs have a higher cap.