Pachipachio V Hagun

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Pachipachio v Hagun
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:32:43
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Unicorn.Excesspain said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Hagun wins? you got proof Ironguy? I'd like to see

Do you have proof Pachi wins?


No, thats why i asked if anyone had proof, you just skimread do you?
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:34:05
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Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Veggy, not everyone can get those stats on my Rindo, in fact most ppl that use it don't.....

raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone.


Then keep trying till you get a good one? If you're going to waste a lot of money on a gkt that's inferior to hagun to begin with (lookin at you pachi) then there's no reason not to spend that money going for the better of the lesser gkts.

"raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone."
Eyeballing on xbox doesn't factor in ANYTHING but human error. You can't go by that at all.

My math > your eyeballing, sorry.

By the way, the math I used was in favor of Rindo. I didn't account for fstr at all, which would have put the data more in favor of Rindo.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:35:09
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Fairy.Vegetto said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Veggy, not everyone can get those stats on my Rindo, in fact most ppl that use it don't.....

raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone.


Then keep trying till you get a good one? If you're going to waste a lot of money on a gkt that's inferior to hagun to begin with (lookin at you pachi) then there's no reason not to spend that money going for the better of the lesser gkts.

"raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone."
Eyeballing on xbox doesn't factor in ANYTHING but human error. You can't go by that at all.

My math > your eyeballing, sorry.

By the way, the math I used was in favor of Rindo. I didn't account for fstr at all, which would have put the data more in favor of Rindo.


And you come up with these numbers how?

To anyone that isn't a ffxi math geek half of these numbers look made up.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:35:17
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Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Unicorn.Excesspain said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Hagun wins? you got proof Ironguy? I'd like to see

Do you have proof Pachi wins?


No, thats why i asked if anyone had proof, you just skimread do you?

No, nobody has proof (because it's not better)
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2009-10-28 08:37:46
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I owned a Pachipachio for about 1 week before I accidentally sold it, sure it has it's few situations where it will come out on top but I say few... And this few wasn't enough to warrant me keeping it as i felt the 3m was better used in finally upgrading some BLM! (BLM>SCH btw).

Edit: No proof here either.
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 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:38:27
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Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Fairy.Vegetto said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Veggy, not everyone can get those stats on my Rindo, in fact most ppl that use it don't.....

raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone.


Then keep trying till you get a good one? If you're going to waste a lot of money on a gkt that's inferior to hagun to begin with (lookin at you pachi) then there's no reason not to spend that money going for the better of the lesser gkts.

"raw math data don't factor in everything else either...so you can't go by that alone."
Eyeballing on xbox doesn't factor in ANYTHING but human error. You can't go by that at all.

My math > your eyeballing, sorry.

By the way, the math I used was in favor of Rindo. I didn't account for fstr at all, which would have put the data more in favor of Rindo.


And you come up with these numbers how?

% increase from delay (or decrease)

1/(Old delay/New Delay) x 100 = %


% increase/decrease from DMG

New dmg/old dmg x 100%

Attack
((new attack/mob defense)-lv correlation)/((old attack/mob defense)-lv correlation) = % increase

WS dmg.

New dmg/old dmg = % increase/decrease
I went w/ 100something base str. str x .75 (round down) x .83 (round down) = WSC DMG add to weapon's DMG+ for total damage

Acc
New hitrate/Old hitrate = % increase/decrease

Did i leave anything out?
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 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-10-28 08:38:56
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Hades.Dizzmal said:
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.


Both his bluntness and his numbers makes him one of the best posters on this forum, more people need to realise that.

no homo

Hagun is the best (outside relic and av GKT), it has been show than hagun can even keep up with a relic in certain situations (read: merits).

If you don't believe it and can't be bothered to look at the obvious conclusions of the maths then sell your hagun and give up on SAM.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:41:52
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Kujata.Argettio said:
Hades.Dizzmal said:
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.


Both his bluntness and his numbers makes him one of the best posters on this forum, more people need to realise that.

no homo

Hagun is the best (outside relic and av GKT), it has been show than hagun can even keep up with a relic in certain situations (read: merits).

If you don't believe it and can't be bothered to look at the obvious conclusions of the maths then sell your hagun and give up on SAM.


Yeah because if you don't own a Hagun your totally useless, right.
 Remora.Laphine
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By Remora.Laphine 2009-10-28 08:43:29
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Pandemonium.Ironguy said:
... enough to the point where if it comes down to spamming Rana, Onimaru bypasses it due to the sheer fact of that extra 30 delay actually hurting you in the long run.
....


Not defending one or the other but that 30 more delay actually helps you. There are 2 key delays points for tp gain: 1 - lower than 180; 2 - around 480-530. There is a boost on tp gain for that 500ish, and when you get lower than 180 delay the tp gained is increased exponentially.

here is a link to it:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg

I dare say that's why pole can be a sick weapon with sam. Among other things they have higher delay.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:43:31
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Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Kujata.Argettio said:
Hades.Dizzmal said:
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.


Both his bluntness and his numbers makes him one of the best posters on this forum, more people need to realise that.

no homo

Hagun is the best (outside relic and av GKT), it has been show than hagun can even keep up with a relic in certain situations (read: merits).

If you don't believe it and can't be bothered to look at the obvious conclusions of the maths then sell your hagun and give up on SAM.


Yeah because if you don't own a Hagun your totally useless, right.

No, not true at all, but if you're not going to own a hagun, don't go with something that is almost just as expensive and will perform less. If you can't afford a hagun, go w/ Onimaru until you can afford a hagun. Decent augment rindo would be best hagun replacement if you want to press your luck there, but there is no reason for having a pachi and not a hagun, seeing as they are about equally expensive.
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By Odin.Dirtyfinger 2009-10-28 08:43:44
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You have a Pachipachio but not Hagun?
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 Kujata.Argettio
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By Kujata.Argettio 2009-10-28 08:45:15
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Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Kujata.Argettio said:
Hades.Dizzmal said:
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.


Both his bluntness and his numbers makes him one of the best posters on this forum, more people need to realise that.

no homo

Hagun is the best (outside relic and av GKT), it has been show than hagun can even keep up with a relic in certain situations (read: merits).

If you don't believe it and can't be bothered to look at the obvious conclusions of the maths then sell your hagun and give up on SAM.


Yeah because if you don't own a Hagun your totally useless, right.


You say you have a hagun, right?
You say Veg is unnecessarily trolling you
I say he is right and you are wrong
I say you should stop playing sell your hagun and stop play SAM.

I said nothing about SAMs that don't have Haguns yet.
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 Valefor.Ryukuro
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By Valefor.Ryukuro 2009-10-28 08:48:56
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Fairy.Vegetto said:
Valefor.Ryukuro said:
Kujata.Argettio said:
Hades.Dizzmal said:
You realize that you are gonna end up turning this into a flamed thread. Veg might be blunt, but he always has numbers to back himself up.


Both his bluntness and his numbers makes him one of the best posters on this forum, more people need to realise that.

no homo

Hagun is the best (outside relic and av GKT), it has been show than hagun can even keep up with a relic in certain situations (read: merits).

If you don't believe it and can't be bothered to look at the obvious conclusions of the maths then sell your hagun and give up on SAM.


Yeah because if you don't own a Hagun your totally useless, right.

No, not true at all, but if you're not going to own a hagun, don't go with something that is almost just as expensive and will perform less. If you can't afford a hagun, go w/ Onimaru until you can afford a hagun. Decent augment rindo would be best hagun replacement if you want to press your luck there, but there is no reason for having a pachi and not a hagun, seeing as they are about equally expensive.


Well, at any rate, i have hagun, pachi and rindo and will continue to use all of them and play around and see whats best for me, thank you for the math and was not trying to be an *** or flame on haguns in anyway just wanted to get some opinions/parse results tis all ^^ I think in most situations where capped acc (or very close to) is not needed, i will be using pachi ^^ otherwise I am sure the Hagun (or in SAM/THF situation) the rindo will come out ^^
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 08:50:14
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Well aside of the fact that Rindo beats Pachi (especially the rindo you have) w/ even capped acc, if your acc is truly capped, instead of swapping gkts, you can swap from ace's to turban and pick up another percent of haste.

Either way, I don't personally care what you do, but if you were going to do one no matter what, you wouldn't have came here and asked about it to begin w/, so just giving my personal advice.
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 Titan.Genarf
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By Titan.Genarf 2009-10-28 09:12:56
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i want to know your 5 hit set up because if you dont have a 5 hit with like 20% haste i dont see you keeping up with any 6 hit sam with 21% haste, haste in every situation increases output on damage.

So, if you have a 5 hit you give up haste for Store Tp and give up hagun.

6hit with hagun and haste, should keep up with you in the lets say the time it takes to build 100% tp or w/e you come to + haguns Tp bonus

so ill make it as simple as possible

5hit = little haste = no tp bonus

6hit = lots of haste = tp bonus, also = the same time to build 100% tp if not faster.

anyone agree or should i /quit sam?
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 09:18:20
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You don't have to give up any haste for either Rindo or Pachi for 5hit
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 Fairy.Tbest
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By Fairy.Tbest 2009-10-28 09:35:58
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Sam 5-hit w/ 16 Store TP Rindomaru.

Store TP pieces Option 1: (Store TP+74 w/ merits) (Haste +16% w/o Drg sub.)
Rindomaru
Chiv Chain
Brutal
Hachiman Kote +1
Rajas Ring
Usukane Sune-Ate
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 09:37:28
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16 stp rindomru

Rind
Usu body
Rajas
Usu shoes
Brutal
Rose Strap
Ecphoria

Can use dusk gloves, no loss in haste.
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 Fairy.Tbest
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By Fairy.Tbest 2009-10-28 09:38:45
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>.> That was gonna be my option 2. :P
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 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 09:39:34
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lol
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 Cerberus.Virgil
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By Cerberus.Virgil 2009-10-28 09:50:51
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Why is this question being asked over and over again?
Amano/Futsuno > Hagun > other ***
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 Fairy.Tbest
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By Fairy.Tbest 2009-10-28 09:52:42
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Because people will continue to ask until they get the response they want to hear. lol
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 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2009-10-28 10:37:33
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Wait what?

Asked people for parsed results, but then doesn't believe those results?

Asks for solid math on Pachi/Hagun gets them but then doesn't want to listen?

Wants to hear ppl opinions but only if they are Pachi > hagun?

Honestly how did you not think that ppl were going to shoot this down crazy quick? I don't care what you use on sam if you want to use Pachi by all means use Pachi, but why in the hell would you start yet another thread about how a GK can out preform a Hagun, then get defensive when ppl prove you wrong? I've messed around with lots of GK and if my eye balls are as good as yours Hagun still wins everytime. Again if you wanna use Pachi go for it, if your throwing up good numbers isn't that enough? Why bring it here..

And I don't remember who said it but..just cuz someone doesn't agree with what you say doesn't make that person a troll..expecially if they have solid numbers to back up there claim(which for fact eyeballing doesn't count for ***)
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 Quetzalcoatl.Mdkuser
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By Quetzalcoatl.Mdkuser 2009-10-28 16:51:59
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Im sure previous posters gave their opinion, and i know people like to jump the hagun bandwagon. I actually recently switched from hagun to pachipachio, and the maths confirm it beats ( slightly ) hagun. I initially though it was a bad GK like everyone were saying, but after seeing a lot of JP full usukane sam use it I wondered if it were good and was surprised.

But it only beats it if you own AT LEAST the three following items: usukane haramaki, usukane sune-ate, cuchulain's mantle. Add pachipachio and that's 20+ Mil worth of items.

Why? Pachipachio is only worth it if you can compensate the - 6 accuracy on it, AND if you get 5 hit build with 20+ TP per hit. Usukane body feet rajas brutal and max stp merit is 56 stp, two more that what's needed. It requires to WS in usu body + hachiman feet though, because its better to get 20.0+ from WS and melee hits, for synchronization with meditate tics.

Now what about -6 accuracy? Not a big deal if your gear is good. actually, cuchu mantle litterally cancels the -6 acuracy. You lose some attack on the back, but you get it on the weapon itself. Also we live in pizza area. I dont even have full GK merits, and can get 455 accuracy with pachi ( 460+ on hagun). This caps on virtually every single mob in the game bar MMJ lurker, even HNMs ( and hagun will not cap on those either anyway).

Now that the - accuracy is dealt with, you see its just a matter of if a 5-hit set up with a D82 delay 480 GK beats a 6-hit setup with a delay 437 hagun ( sword strap, usu body etc). Its easy maths, any maths wizard on this forum can do them. it wins by a few %s, depending on buffs.

This weapon was considered bad due to -6 acc pre pizza, and all the maths I have seen that proved it was a bad GK, based it on uncaped accuracy as an asumption, they all started with " -3% hit rate" which of course isnt the case with pizza. Pizza made it good. But anyway its very easy to make a rindomaru thats even better, with just +16 stp and a rose strap, or even +15.

If you want some numbers, sam/war with march x2, pachi beats hagun by 1-2% while a rindomaru easilly beats hagun by 5%+.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 17:07:26
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You accounting for meditate?
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2009-10-28 17:23:06
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I would rather keep my hagun (if I was a SAM) and stick to 6-hit
Usu body for Y/G/K is the same as a hachiman domaru with dex lol....
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 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 17:24:39
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Phoenix.Fredjan said:
I would rather keep my hagun (if I was a SAM) and stick to 6-hit
Usu body for Y/G/K is the same as a hachiman domaru with dex lol....

And domaru in most situations beats a hell of a lot of other WS bodies including haub(+1) unless it's a really high defense mob.
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 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2009-10-28 17:26:23
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Osode!
but yeah...
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2009-10-28 17:27:09
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Phoenix.Fredjan said:
Osode!
but yeah...

You were making domaru out to be a horrible choice though, when it is not.
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 Phoenix.Fredjan
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By Phoenix.Fredjan 2009-10-28 17:29:18
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anyways
Hagun will beat pachi, and if OP doesn't want to listen, it's his problem
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