Pachipachio V Hagun

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Pachipachio v Hagun
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 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-03-21 10:11:36
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>:3
 Asura.Othirin
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By Asura.Othirin 2010-03-21 10:24:04
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yochi+soboro is just crazy on birds.....i mean you have all most no hate on your WS and you can skillchain light at a crazy rate.
 Hades.Amnesia
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By Hades.Amnesia 2010-03-21 11:04:39
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Seemingly soon to be discarded @ Colibri camps with the incoming lv80!

Perhaps~
 Asura.Othirin
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By Asura.Othirin 2010-03-21 11:58:28
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yes you are right, its going to be interesting to see how this level cap plays out for relics
 Caitsith.Neonracer
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By Caitsith.Neonracer 2010-03-21 12:09:55
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I thought that it was all about a matter of opinion, not is what's best, or who thinks is best.


Just use, what's in your own tastes, what you think is best, and use just that.

Wasn't that easy?
 Asura.Calatilla
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By Asura.Calatilla 2010-03-21 12:16:21
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I use Onimaru over Hagun simple cuz i dont think Hagun is worth its price tag.

I`ve used my friends Hagun on numerous occasions and my ws dmg isn't that much different from Oni, not enough to spend 2mil on
 Caitsith.Neonracer
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By Caitsith.Neonracer 2010-03-21 12:17:51
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I had a hagun, and I downgraded to a Oni, Def it is a price tag and ownership status quo.

I agree with Cala here, Oni is good, if you don't have the Gil.
 Ifrit.Duanyu
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By Ifrit.Duanyu 2010-03-21 12:32:53
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Asura.Calatilla said:
I use Onimaru over Hagun simple cuz i dont think Hagun is worth its price tag.

I`ve used my friends Hagun on numerous occasions and my ws dmg isn't that much different from Oni, not enough to spend 2mil on

no offense but that sams that are using the haguns must suck
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-21 12:38:46
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Eyeballing is awesome, it makes a 15% increase in average WS damage look like nothing at all.
[+]
 Asura.Calatilla
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By Asura.Calatilla 2010-03-21 12:39:35
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read what i said

"MY ws dmg wasnt that much different with a Hagun"

never said anything about anyone elses

My sam isnt half as merited as most Hagun sams, and it has above average gear.

Hagun is good yes, if u have the gear to back it up
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-21 12:48:17
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Hagun is better than onimaru no matter what gear you have. Not limited to "if you have good gear to back it up"
 Shiva.Weewoo
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 12:49:54
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I'm curious. Would hagun be as awesome if SE revoked that update to Y/G/K giving it a massive dmg multiplier based on TP?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-21 12:49:58
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Math doesn't make exceptions for random people. That number isn't fully accurate based on race/merits/gear/target, but it's a good general figure. You eyeballed. I did the math.
 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-21 12:51:34
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Quote:
I'm curious. Would hagun be as awesome if SE revoked that update to Y/G/K giving it a massive dmg multiplier based on TP?
massive dmg multiplier? Many WS have much higher multipliers u know?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-21 12:52:34
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I want to think they're confusing pDIF and fTP, but I'm not really sure.
 Shiva.Weewoo
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 12:52:34
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Fairy.Vegetto said:
Quote:
I'm curious. Would hagun be as awesome if SE revoked that update to Y/G/K giving it a massive dmg multiplier based on TP?
massive dmg multiplier? Many WS have much higher multipliers u know?

I just recall SE giving an update awhile back that made the bonus much higher than it used to be.
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
I want to think they're confusing pDIF and fTP, but I'm not really sure.

Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the formulas and glossary of WS calculation but what I meant was that the hagun is great because Y/G/K is realllllly powerful @200% and beyond TP, and I remember an update increasing that damage multiplier back in the day.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-21 12:57:23
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YGK actually scale pretty poorly with TP, it's just that SAM's Martial weapon is competitive whereas the other ones generally aren't and SAM has the highest WS/TP ratio of any job.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-21 12:58:08
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Onimaru only has 10% more base dmg. 100-200% is 20% more dmg.

Now even if we assume the player litterally has 0 str giving them 0 wsc and low capped fstr of -8 (this being best case scenario outside of sekki or 300% tp) Onimaru will only have 11% more base dmg on ws. So best case scenario if hagun is active it still does 8% more ws dmg.

Now let's be more reasonable and assume high capped fstr and like idk 130 str. Onimaru will only be about 4% more base dmg on ws making hagun deal about 15% more dmg on ws.

 Shiva.Weewoo
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 12:59:59
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
YGK actually scales pretty poorly with TP, it's just that SAM's Martial weapon is competitive whereas the other ones generally aren't and SAM has the highest WS/TP ratio of any job.

ffxiclopedia said:
Damage Multipliers by TP:

100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.5625 1.875 2.50

Dang, you're right. So why is hagun so rad then if everyone spams @100% and the dmg scale increase is minimal than not having a TP bonus? Especially since Hagun only has 75 base dmg.
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-21 13:01:03
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Fairy.Vegetto said:
Quote:
I'm curious. Would hagun be as awesome if SE revoked that update to Y/G/K giving it a massive dmg multiplier based on TP?
massive dmg multiplier? Many WS have much higher multipliers u know?
Yeah the staff ones are insane... especially full swing.

Damage Multipliers by TP:
100%TP 200%TP 300%TP
1.00 3.00 5.00
 Ramuh.Dasva
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-21 13:03:36
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Shiva.Weewoo said:
Dang, you're right. So why is hagun so rad then if everyone spams @100% and the dmg scale increase is minimal than not having a TP bonus? Especially since Hagun only has 75 base dmg.
Because that is still a 20% boost in ws dmg regardless of str fstr att base dmg etc. And given a reasonable str build in you'd need like a gkt with 100+ base dmg to be equivalent to that and sams ws all the *** time.
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 13:06:35
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In other words, hagun is the best spamming GTK. In situations when build up tends to get higher in accordance to timing or waiting for a tactical advantage, higher base dmg is better?
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-03-21 13:07:23
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WAR generally favors RR, which is crit varies rather than damage varies. WAR also deals a greater % of its damage during TP and Perdu Voulge -> Martial Bhuj trades out a greater % of your base damage that Onimaru -> Hagun. Martial Scythe sucks and Spiral Hell sucks, unless you're saving to 300 TP (200 with Martial Scythe of course), but nobody does that except to epeen now. I don't remember if Martial Sword is any good but given pizza GS isn't used much these days. Martial Lance is a joke and DRG has no damage varies WS of note (inb4 Gimpulse Drive). Martial Knife sucks and only affects a few of the WS on a DoT job... etc. Martial Gun is good if you TP with a different weapon (Joyeuse or MKris COR, Kraken RNG, etc), and Martial Staff is a decent weapon, but by and large the Martial weapons just aren't that good.
 Shiva.Weewoo
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 13:10:40
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Ah, gotcha Night. So it really is based on whether you got good multipliers for the most commonly needed weapon skills or not and what style of damage you course out by your class of choice.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-21 13:14:05
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Shiva.Weewoo said:
Ah, gotcha Night. So it really is based on whether you got good multipliers for the most commonly needed weapon skills or not and what style of damage you course out by your class of choice.
Well what he is saying is it's a combo of decent ftp scaling on the good weaponskills and minimal loss on base dmg of the weapon combined with the fact that sams are skewed highly to ws dmg for there total in the first place.



 Remora.Willoflame
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By Remora.Willoflame 2010-03-21 13:16:50
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WARNING: HUGE *** WALL OF TEXT INCOMING. NUMBERS/TESTING IS INCLUDED.

Credit for this goes to Beltenebros of Remora


Why the Hagun is worth every penny:

For those with a short-attention span, here are calculated Weaponskill damages against a Greater Colibri (lvl 81 mob, vit 67, def 322) Reading the post in full will explain how I arrived at these numbers.

Hagun @ 100% TP: low 385, high 642
Other Great Katana @ 100% TP: low 336, high 560

Hagun @ 200% TP: low 513, high 855
Other Great Katana @ 200% TP: low 402, high 670

And, for fun, WS damages against Kirin (lvl 91, vit 120, def 413)

Hagun @ 100% TP: low 294, high 441
Other Great Katana @ 100% TP: low 258, high 387

Hagun @ 200% TP: low 393, high 589.5
Other Great Katana @ 200% TP: low 309, high 463.5

In other words, at 100TP against a Greater Colibri a Hagun can land a WS (without crit/double attack) for 80+ damage more than any competing Great Katana (Onimaru, Shinsoku, etc) and at 200TP it adds 185 damage more to the basal equations. These are rough numbers, not taking into account fluctuations based on landing a Critial Hit WS or Double Attacking, which will skew the numbers even further in the Hagun’s favor.

Really, the bottom line is that neither Onimaru, Ushikimaru, or Shinsoku increase base dmg by a larger % than Hagun increases fTP. Why is this important? Because- as a Samurai- the percentage of your Total (melee & WS) damage coming from WS, is almost ALWAYS going to be higher than the percentage of your total damage that you gain through melee strikes. In fact, your WS damage will probably be closer to 60%-80% of your total damage depending on what you fight, whether or not you use 6-hit, and whether or not you forget to meditate. We're not MNKs. Melee DoT is not a concern for SAM. To put it bluntly: if the Percentage of your Total Damage output coming from melee strikes instead of WS is high enough for ushikirimaru's base dmg to beat hagun's TP bonus, one has to really, truly fail as a SAM (hold TP too long, never meditate, not use any WS macro swaps, etc)

If you don't feel like reading further, the gist of what I'm going to try and demonstrate is that the higher damage on Weapon Skills provided by Hagun pulls it far ahead of the higher base damage afforded by other “competing” Great Katanas. I won't blame you for being suspicious of this statement, so read on from this point if you’d like to see how I arrived at it.


* * * * *

The Hagun looks like a boat oar and at first blush it's stats are unimpressive at best:

Hagun DMG:75 Delay:450 TP Bonus

In fact, compared to the Kazaridachi (the Great Katana most SAM used to ~71ish) it actually has a *lower* base damage, and it doesn't give you the sweet CHR +2 mod

Kazaridachi DMG:76 Delay:450 CHR+2

So, what gives? Why are Samurai across servers paying millions and millions of gil for a weapon that looks horrible and has lol base damage? Aren't the Onimaru (DMG: 77 / latent: DMG 83 att+18 acc +5) , Ushikirimaru (DMG:82 STR +2 HP +15) or Shinsoku (DMG:80 STR +5) superior choices?

In a word, no. And here's why

Weapon Skills and gaining TP for Weapon Skills are the two things Samurai were put on Vana'diel to do. The final three WS that a non-relic SAM learns (Tachi: Yukikaze, Tachi: Gekko, and Tachi: Kasha) all have two things in common. First, they have all have a modifier of STR: 75% (meaning, as I hope you should know, 75% of your Strength is factored in to your weapon's base damage during WS damage calculation) making STR the obvious stat to increase for WS gearswaps. Secondly, they share ridiculously high fTP Damage modifiers. To wit... 100%TP 1.5625
200%TP 1.875
300%TP 2.50
Compared to, say, Asuran Fists (with a fTP damage modifier of 1.00 for 100%, 200%, or 300% TP), Penta Thrust (same), Hexa Strike (you guessed it, fTP of 1.00 for all!), Dancing Edge (fTP of 1.875 regardless of TP) and other commonly seen WSes this is a HUGE variance for ths the fTP modifier.

So what's this have to do with the Hagun, you may be asking? Let's revisit the item's description again:

Hagun DMG:75 Delay:450 TP Bonus

The Hagun is from the "Martial" series of weapons and as such it will add 100% TP to your WS's fTP modifier the second you execute it. In other words, when you WS at 100% TP with your Hagun, you're effectively WSing at 200% TP. WS at 200% TP, and you’re really WSing at 300%TP... which where the millions of gil start to come into play. Depending on the mob you’re fighting the Hagun will add 2-300 damage to Yukikaze, Gekko, or Kasha which makes it drool-inducing for Samurai regardless of the sub (contrary to popular opinion: this makes it a *better* choice for SAM/THF despite the deceptively low base damage)

But what the hell is fTP anyway and how does that affect my Weapon Skill damage? I’m so glad you asked, because here comes the math!

The simplified version of the accepted non-Magic Weapon Skill Damage Equation is as follows:

Weapon Skill Damage = WSD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF
where...
WSD: Base Weapon Skill Damage
PDIF: Function of the difference between your Attack vs. Mob's Def (ATT vs DEF)
D: Weapon's base damage
fSTR: Function of the difference between your STR and the mob's VIT.
WSC: Secondary Attribute Modifiers (STR +75% for SAM)
fTP: TP Multiplier of your WS

fStr: is bizarre and is essentially your Strength minus the mob’s Vit +4/4 (for merit-level mobs). Further, this "caps" at 8+(Weapon Damage/9) So, for a weapon with 75 damage, the cap is 16.

WSC: This value isn’t simply added. You take your base score, multiple it by the relevant percentage for the modifier (75% for STR) and then multiply it by a fixed integer based on your level (.83 for level 75) Oddly, the higher level you are the less impact modifiers have on your WS damage... although, this amount is almost inconsequential.

PDIF: Explaining PDIF calculations extensively would make this post even more of a Wall of Text than it already is, but suffice it to say that it can be easily calculated for melees by
(Your ATT / Mob’s DEF) with a level correction of 0.050 x every level the mob has over you (6, in this example) It’s worth noting that Tachi Yuki, Gekko, and Kasha all have mysteriously high PDIF values meaning you do more damage than you technically *should* be able to using the PDIF graph. When using Y/G/K it’s almost a given that your PDIF value will higher than normal. This further increases your overall damage % from Weapon Skills over melee strikes. Although conjecture, many SAM concerned with such things believe the level correction modifier does not apply to y/g/k. Anyway, this this ratio gives you your ratio of what to expect for a min and maximum PDIF value.

* * * * *

To put this rather involved equation into practice, I’ll illustrate exactly how much the Hagun brings to the table by way of an example.

Every good Weapon Skill needs a Hero! So for this example, let's take a look at our Hero in his WS Gear: A striking lvl 75 Elvaan SAM with a Hagun (that handsome devil!) with a total STR of 128 (food buff incl.) and a standard buffed attack of 502. The mob for this example is a pink, flying whipping boy- a merit standard Greater Colibri- which is accepted to have a lvl of 81, a VIT of 67 and a Defense of 322.

With that in mind, our hero approaches the Colibri with 100TP, draws his Hagun, and fires off a Tachi: Yukikaze. Zounds! Damage!

What we're going to calculate first is the WSD and then multiply that by the PDIF. For the WSD, we need to look at ((D + fSTR +WSC) *fTP) Please note fTP is not arithmetic, it is a MULTIPLIER, this is where the Hagun really shines since it is an exponential increase. At 100TP we can expect WSD of
Hagun ((75 + 16 + 80) * 1.875 ) = 321
Other Great Katana ((83 + 16 + 80) * 1.5625) = 280

Now, at 200TP the gap broadens...
Hagun ((75 + 16 + 80)* 2.50) = 427.5
Other Great Katana ((83 + 16 + 80) * 1.875 ) = 335

When we multiply these WSDs by the PDIF values of 1.2 and 2 we can expect to see...

Hagun @ 100% TP: low 385, high 642
Other Great Katana @ 100% TP: low 336, high 560

Hagun @ 200% TP: low 513, high 855
Other Great Katana @ 200% TP: low 402, high 670

It should be noted that you can’t WS at a value greater than 300%TP so if you ever go above 200TP on a Hagun you’re effectively wasting your damage potential. At 300TP, a Great Katana with a higher base damage will put out better numbers than a Hagun. For this reason many Samurai (our Hero included) carry around a Great Katana with a higher base damage (onimaru, etc) for those instances such as Kirin and the Shinjin when you have the luxury of building up to 300TP before the fight. Fire off your first WS with the higher base damage weapon, then switch back to the Hagun. It's really that simple.
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 Fairy.Vegetto
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-21 13:17:29
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Just looked it up and that update actually nerfed hagun, according to a post on bg
Quote:
The modification was the to the FTP of gekko which I assume you meant. It used to be 2.0 at 200 tp, and was lowered to 1.875, which hurt hagun as a side effect.

As for dasva it's more than 8% increase to oni.

Let's say we have 130 str = 80 DMG from wsc.
Let's say our fstr is 15, = 15 dmg
Hagun 75 DMG + 95 = 170
Oni 83 DMG + 95 = 178

178 x 1.6525 = 294.145 DMG
170 x 1.975 = 335.75 DMG

335.75/294.145 = 14% increase in damage, 6% higher than your 8% in your "Best case scenario"
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By Shiva.Weewoo 2010-03-21 13:17:30
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Ramuh.Dasva said:
Shiva.Weewoo said:
Ah, gotcha Night. So it really is based on whether you got good multipliers for the most commonly needed weapon skills or not and what style of damage you course out by your class of choice.
Well what he is saying is it's a combo of decent ftp scaling on the good weaponskills and minimal loss on base dmg of the weapon combined with the fact that sams are skewed highly to ws dmg for there total in the first place.

Oh I understand. Sam's power comes primarily from their weapon skills so it only makes sense to have a weapon to empower that to the fullest while maintaining a 6 hit build as not to slow yourself down.

But like he said other jobs have skewed dmg done via DoT or a mix of good DoT via TP gain and powerful weapon skills. That combined with what useful weapon skills have certain TP multipliers determines whether your martial weapon sucks or not.
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By Ramuh.Dasva 2010-03-21 13:25:15
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Fairy.Vegetto said:
As for dasva it's more than 8% increase to oni.

Let's say we have 130 str = 80 DMG from wsc.
Let's say our fstr is 15, = 15 dmg
Hagun 75 DMG + 95 = 170
Oni 83 DMG + 95 = 178

178 x 1.6525 = 294.145 DMG
170 x 1.975 = 335.75 DMG

335.75/294.145 = 14% increase in damage, 6% higher than your 8% in your "Best case scenario"
Read more argue less. I specifically said best case for oni was that low and if you read on I stated unrealistic terms like 0 str... (though I've seen it happen in salvage with str down moves lol)

then I did one with more realistic like say what you put and got about the same numbers... so yeah try reading what I wrote first
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-03-21 13:34:57
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oh well