String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*

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String Theory: A Puppetmaster's Guide *NEW*
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-05-22 02:15:21
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I have no trouble to believe that, sound fitting with my hunch I wrote about in the previous post.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Uncapped Att and/or uncapped dDex Rao+1 might pull ahead?

I'm not so sure (but then again, it could be) that Rao+1 wins when Attack and/or dDEX are capped though. Granted it's a situation you're not gonna see often on PUP, as you said.

I think either way both options are probably close to each other though. How far ahead of Hizamaru was Rao+1 in your tests? I bet that Rao, even if ahead, was pretty close to Hiza.
Point of this being that if you don't wanna spend the additional gil on Rao to save money for other things (or other jobs) then Hizamaru should be a pretty viable (and free) option.
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By Aerix 2019-05-22 02:27:46
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SP with capped Attack/uncapped dDEX: Hiza+2 13975 vs. 14134 with Rao Legs+1. Those numbers are with R0 Vere as I'm not sure how to add the hidden damage bonus from KKK.

The numbers do seem weirdly low for capped Attack, though. I'm using the MNK spreadsheet from 2017 to which I've been adding certain pieces of new PUP gear over time.
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-05-22 02:38:07
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It's easy to add the bonus damage to KKK.
There's a specific line for that.
Go in the "Data" sheet and look for the "Relic Bonus" line.
In the formula there should be a list of Weapons and the bonus they grant to specific WSs.
Just makes sure you type the names of Weapons and WSs well (with the right capital letters too) and you should be fine, you should see the bonus damage if you do the formula right.

After you're done if you wanna "test" it create a new weapon with the same exact stats as KKK but with a different name, and you'll see the WS damage of Pummel being lower.



For the sake of example I'm copypasting this line from a THF spreadsheet, it's the only one I have on this PC atm.
Code
=100%+SE(Setup!$B24="Mercy Stroke";SE(O(Gear!$B3="Mandau 90";Gear!$B3="Mandau 95");25%;SE(O(Gear!$B3="Mandau 99";Gear!$B3="Mandau 119");40%;0));0)+SE(Setup!$B24="Mandalic Stab";SE(O(Gear!$B3="Vajra 90";Gear!$B3="Vajra 95");15%;SE(O(Gear!$B3="Vajra 99";Gear!$B3="Vajra 119");30%;0));0)+SE(Setup!$B24="Evisceration";SE(O(Gear!$B3="Tauret");50%;0))+SE(Setup!$B24="Rudra's Storm";SE(O(Gear!$B3="Twastar R15");10%;0))
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-05-22 02:40:03
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Out of sheer curiosity, is Vere the "best" weapon for pure damage on PUP, like it is for MNK?

Granted it's probably a bit harder to define "best" for PUP because you can't pretend the Automaton doesn't exist, and Vere does nothing for it while KKK's AM3 does a lot.
Right?
Even though, I dunno, outside of Overdrive Automaton damage is probably so small it might not be particularly relevant to see things this way in the end...
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-05-22 04:01:30
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Aerix said: »
SP with capped Attack/uncapped dDEX: Hiza+2 13975 vs. 14134 with Rao Legs+1. Those numbers are with R0 Vere as I'm not sure how to add the hidden damage bonus from KKK.

The numbers do seem weirdly low for capped Attack, though. I'm using the MNK spreadsheet from 2017 to which I've been adding certain pieces of new PUP gear over time.

Those numbers have to be off to some degree since I was spiking SP's around 18k in Omen last night (3x minuet, idris fury, no food) and that's using r1 Godhands. Unless I'm not understanding what you plugged in to the spreadsheet to get those numbers.
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By Aerix 2019-05-22 05:19:06
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Out of sheer curiosity, is Vere the "best" weapon for pure damage on PUP, like it is for MNK?

Granted it's probably a bit harder to define "best" for PUP because you can't pretend the Automaton doesn't exist, and Vere does nothing for it while KKK's AM3 does a lot.
Right?
Even though, I dunno, outside of Overdrive Automaton damage is probably so small it might not be particularly relevant to see things this way in the end...

I still need to fully upgrade my KKK, but I'm 99% certain R15 KKK is our best DD weapon hands-down. Stringing Pummels hits like a truck (well, for PUP HTH...) even at R0 and PUP really benefits from the faster TP gain with AM3 as we don't have the same quality of gear as MNK nor Kick Attacks.

Our second-best master DD weapon would probably be R15 Godhands or Xiucoatl Path C with Howling Fist/Raging Fists going by my tests earlier in the thread. Victory Smite numbers are a bit disappointing in comparison as we don't have anything like Impetus.

Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Those numbers have to be off to some degree since I was spiking SP's around 18k in Omen last night (3x minuet, idris fury, no food) and that's using r1 Godhands. Unless I'm not understanding what you plugged in to the spreadsheet to get those numbers.

Yeah those numbers do seem very low (I usually do 19k-24k on Apex Crabs without BRD buffs), but I just downloaded an updated version of the spreadsheet that includes augmented REMA to compare. Without modifying anything and picking the same/similar gear, I'm getting equally low numbers at Attack cap (~17-18k at best after some tweaking). Maybe the MNK JAs/JTs I disabled are weighted too heavily or there's something else I'm not accounting for.

For reference, this is the set I'm testing for which I've always gotten the highest numbers for my BiS comparisons and which I'm also using in-game: ItemSet 352948

Everything except Heyoka+1/Animator is already natively in the spreadsheet, but Abnoba works just as well as it's only a couple hundred points of damage behind Heyoka+1. On lower level targets where it's easier to cap dDEX Abnoba wins.

I'm getting only 17809 on Victory Smite with R15 Verethragna which is much too low going by my personal experience for Apex mobs.

---

Edit: Nevermind, just went to Dho Gates and tested VS with Xiucoatl B and Bolster Frailty and I was getting 15k-16k on average. 17k-18k with R15 Verethragna seems appropriate after all. Guess the WS just plain sucks for PUP. Even R0 KKK SP outperforms it massively due to damage and TP speed.

Edit 2: I've edited the MNK Spreadsheet and converted all Glanzfaust/Ascetic's Fury references to Kenkonken/Stringing Pummel successfully (everything on Data/Gear Lists/Translate). However, the numbers for Attack-capped SP even including the R15 bonus are extremely low: 13981. As mentioned before, I have no issues breaking 19k+ with SP on Apex Toads with Berserk/Warcry/Chaos Roll/Bolster Idris Frailty. I just tested it to make sure.



This is with an R0 KKK. It looks like despite my spreadsheet modification the Mythic/Aug bonus isn't being applied. If I multiply that 13981 number by 1.3 for an R0 KKK then it gets close, but it's still a bit too low.
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-05-22 14:20:04
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The time has come to finish my PUP JPs. I'm at 1040 atm.

Considering my gear is between Late/High tier and Dream tiers found in this guide (master only and combined master/pet sets), what would be the best strat to get those 1060 JPs as fast as possible on Apex bats?

I'm quite inexperienced/unaware of the various ways of playing DD mode as PUP, especially with your puppet around. Basically anything post 75 in that regard is foreign to me. I got Shijin Spiral in case it's useful, though, oh and Stringing Pummel. I was told about a 6 steps SC with your puppet but said person did that a long time ago, so there may be better things to do now.
Weapon wise, MEA are out of question for this specific task, anything else I can get it, same for dream tier gear (given availability, make it happen Asura-chan).

I'd have COR BRD and GEO to assist me so we can assume full buffs. Oh also if you guys know of a better camp that goes with a better strat, I'm all ears.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-22 14:56:53
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
The time has come to finish my PUP JPs. I'm at 1040 atm.

Considering my gear is between Late/High tier and Dream tiers found in this guide (master only and combined master/pet sets), what would be the best strat to get those 1060 JPs as fast as possible on Apex bats?

I'm quite inexperienced/unaware of the various ways of playing DD mode as PUP, especially with your puppet around. Basically anything post 75 in that regard is foreign to me. I got Shijin Spiral in case it's useful, though, oh and Stringing Pummel. I was told about a 6 steps SC with your puppet but said person did that a long time ago, so there may be better things to do now.
Weapon wise, MEA are out of question for this specific task, anything else I can get it, same for dream tier gear (given availability, make it happen Asura-chan).

I'd have COR BRD and GEO to assist me so we can assume full buffs. Oh also if you guys know of a better camp that goes with a better strat, I'm all ears.

Glad someone else asked all of this. I would like to know as well, I'm in the business of finishing my pup before this campaign ends. Currently at 400 but have verethragna and fishable
Godhands, the latter of which I'd prefer to use over ohtas, and I don't feel like giving up my belt slot. So gonna go with a shooting pet, but looking for ideas for CP solo in the meantime.
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By Asura.Cicion 2019-05-22 16:00:16
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If your in need of Escha Silt and mob kills for vorseals. With abit of convincing you can mass pull the porxie, razz chigoe camp for a aoe burn in reis quite easily if you have capped dt and mov speed boots. Go with rdm auto to keep phalanx on ya while pulling and set it to cure as well with attachs. Night can be dicey when spellcasters skells and such pop out but still doable.
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By Nariont 2019-05-22 16:30:40
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if these are just buff jobs and not actually participating you can do a simple 4~5 step SC with puppet, shijin > piercer > VS > shatterer > VS

as far as pt goes its pretty disappointing in a tp burn since youll be without inhibs/speed loader and either spamming shatterer with fire/light/wind or spammign daze with fire/thunder/light, you could have VE frame open distortion for a leaden closer+MB or you could pet burn with a 2nd puppet or bst. Thats about all the CP grindign knowledge i got for pup, theres also healing with it but i found that really frustrating personally, same for mbing
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-05-22 16:42:39
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The COR will just be buffing, no meleeing, same for the BRD. It's strictly me as PUP mauling the mobs.
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By Nariont 2019-05-22 16:48:58
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then yeah, that sc set would be ideal, you could set up the GEO to mb if you want at the end if it doesnt kill the mob off the SC, id imagine with proper buffs it should

top of my head the solo sc set was
inhib2/speedloader2/attuner/highest spring(magni instead?)
turbo charger 1+2/optic fiber 1+2
highest ARK/armor plate/truesights

i think thats right, going off memory here and that was before the newer attachments
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-05-22 17:52:18
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That's below the last elemental bonus, right? Worst case I guess I can just pick the lower tier. Thanks for the info.

Regarding the gear you used, what was it exactly? Or roughly if you don't remember. That's my second concern basically, getting a proper TP/WS set for master.
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By Nariont 2019-05-22 18:02:04
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again top of my head so ele tiers might be off, TP set uhhh

taliah +1/lissome/mache+1 x2
taliah+1(can use relic body if puppet fails to keep up)/TA herc/epona's/varar
TP back with pet haste/moonbow/samnuha tights/Tali'ah+1

you can swap the belt for klouskap sash if you wanna drop ohtas to cover the lost haste on puppet
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2019-05-22 18:15:57
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Well, I don't really know what H2H I could be using other than Ohtas right now. But that gear is np.

I guess I'll try that tomorrow and see how it goes, thanks for the info.
If anyone else has more info like that, I'm all ears.
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By Nariont 2019-05-22 18:51:59
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its basically ohtas til su2 for jolt counters, least thats how i ran it, biggest problem youll have its making up the haste from ohtas, which at su3 you can slap heyoka cap on and swap the tali'ah feet for herc feet to keep haste cap and gain up to 6 TA, s'all bout balancing far as solo CP goes, you wanna be able to gain TP quickly on both the master and puppet, and puppet will "usually" be able to get TP in time with just relic body/varar and an inhibitor and its the master that falls behind
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 Asura.Fabiano
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By Asura.Fabiano 2019-05-23 09:37:54
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Though there's a lot of ways you can go about CP'ing on PUP, and a lot of roles the PUP can fulfill in a party. I've personally tried out of a bunch in my road to master, including;

  • being a self-sufficient puller & tank for an all SMN pet party (didn't even engage on the master)

  • backline magic burster on Apex Crabs (probably the most tedious and frustrating...)

  • tank & solo skillchainer for an MB party on Apex Crabs (stringing pummel > string shredder for darkness over and over)

  • low-man duo with a variety of other DD jobs (Myself+THF/PUP/SAM/BST/etc..)

  • healer replacement for a typical CP party (very easy considering how little AoE damage goes out)


Basically what I am trying to say is that there's a lot of room to experiment!

Though if you are going strictly for a solo route, then likely your best route is to fight Apex Bats using Sharpshot frame (they are weak to piercing) with the standard dd attachment set from the guide, and just going for as long of a light skillchain (they are also weak to light) you can muster between you and your automaton. Ideally you aim to do a 5-step double light skillchain (shijin->armor piercer->vic. smite->armor shatterer->vic. smite), but depending on a variety of factors (buffs, gear, trusts) you may get interrupted or fall short. Summon your best trust tank and healer along with buffing support or mules and just go to town. It might take multiple skillchains to finish off a monster at first, but you should notice a power spike once you pass the 1200 JP threshold and can equip all the attachments for max damage.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-23 10:03:28
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Fab!

I was looking for you online yesterday to ask some PUP solo questions. You answered most above, but here's where I need some help (from any experienced PUP).


Asura.Fabiano said: »
Though if you are going strictly for a solo route, then likely your best route is to fight Apex Bats using Sharpshot frame (they are weak to piercing) with the standard dd attachment set from the guide

Q - Where should I make gear sacrifices for my PUP? I have R12 Verethragna/Godhands/Ohtas, I'm under 500 JP; kind of want to use Godhands to do some Radiances sicne the job is for funs. How can I fit in some reasonable amount of haste for my auto so he doesn't get left behind if I'm using the standard DD set? Every slot I could substitute Pet Haste I end up losing a huge chunk of TA (Feet, Haste, Waist are all 6% loss). Also, using Varar +1 as a ring option leaves me without Eponas or Niqmaddu. I understand pet haste is important, just wondering what is the least I can go where he will still catch 1000% TP in the time after use mine.

Q2 - Is there any pet attachment setup that doesn't require gear pet haste (silly question, I know), but the auto can still keep up with TP if I go full-master set? For instance, the guide shows the ranger build and says the pet can shoot fast enough on it's own. If I am using a Ranger pet (sharpshot frame and head), do I even need to gear pet haste, since I can just use the necessary attachments (barrage, double shot, flurry) with 3 wind maneuvers? I asked people this question in game, and I was told I should just cap haste anyways since it will melee in between shots. Just wondering if it's something I need to worry about if the Ranger on its own is good.

In the end, I will probably end up dropping Moonbow + Herc Feet (tears) in favor of pet haste gear (I am using a Pet focused cape), but just wondering where I can forego gearing the auto, if it's at least practical. My target enemy would be Apex Bats (or Pugils/Crabs), solo.
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By Asura.Fabiano 2019-05-23 10:18:23
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Q1 -- Welcome to the dread of gearing hybrid on PUP. Just accept the fact that the developers haven't designed a decent hybrid equipment set and accept the master stat loss to keep your Automaton's haste capped. Like Nariont mentioned above, it really is a balancing act that you'll have to experiment with. I think bare minimum you should aim for capped automaton haste with the rest on master stats, and add pet:store TP accessories if you feel they are needed (so you don't need Varar really). But yea, without Ohtas, the least slots used method is Ambu. Cape/Klouskap+1/Tali'ah Boots+2 (10+9+7=26)

Q2 -- I've personally not tested CP'ing using a Ranger build, as that is actually relatively a recent discovery and possibility (due to the Attachment update a month or two ago.) In theory, automaton haste is less important for a ranger as with triple wind maneuvers it spends most of its time doing ranged attacks. So hey, it might work for what you are looking for? Try it out!
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By Nariont 2019-05-23 10:20:41
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You really dont have many options, only other haste slot til heyoka opens up is earring with remeice ring, probably the least offensive piece you can put haste on is the head with heyoka cap, and youd still need to give up belt i think
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By Aerix 2019-05-23 10:33:18
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Personally, I'd rather give up the legs slot to cap Pet: Haste with Heyoka Subligar (+1) than give up Moonbow Belt +1. The loss of Samnuha Tights/Ryuo legs+1 hurts, but they're still worse DPS in comparison. Of course, if you are <500 JP and/or don't want to spend the money, then Klouskap Sash is the only option.

As for the pure RNG maton: its TP speed is really bad and that setup really only works if you have Companion's Roll. It's a niche setup with niche applications, and as such not viable if you want fast CP.

As far as gearing goes, Fabiano is right. Cap Pet: Haste and Pet: Accuracy, then focus solely on the master. The Automaton should be able to keep up with you in almost all cases if you are using the correct attachments (2x Inhibitors, Coiler 2, 2x Turbo Chargers, 2x Optic Fibers) and 2xFire/1x Wind for fast TP. Note that you can skip Light maneuvers for Apex Bats as they don't have any damaging AoE moves.
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By Nariont 2019-05-23 10:37:25
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Thats fair i wasnt sure which was worse loss legs ir head, just thst you really want hands/feet/body if you can afford it
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By Aerix 2019-05-23 10:41:14
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You had the part about the head slot correct. It's only the third slot that is situational.

Cape+Head must always be sacrificed for Pet: Haste (if not using Ohtas) to avoid too much DPS loss as Herculean Helm doesn't have native TA+2% before augments on it--unlike Herc Hands/Feet. Path C Ryuo Head +1 is a decent alternative that I personally use (for master only), but that's only because KKK AM3 or Xiucoatl Path B provide enough multiattack.

In any case, using Cape+Head will net you 16-17% Pet: Haste, which means you need another 9% elsewhere to reach 25-26%. The only solo slots to provide that much are Weapon, Legs or Waist.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-05-23 11:02:28
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OK, so standard DD auto set it is then. Ugh, thanks. :(
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-05-23 11:11:35
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I had the same questions Buukki but after talking to more experienced folks, and trying out various things. What ended up working wonderfully is making your master+pet TP set into something that focus on the master TP gain as much as possible, then swap in/out pieces only if your automaton cannot keep up.

Basically, you wanna be ready to open every time your auto can close, and you wanna be able to follow up the SC chain, wich I failed most of the time cause TP set aint stellar. On bats the ranger body valor head DD combo was the faster TP gain for my automaton.

My TP set is terrible, but I ended up with this mishmash. The Boots were where I gained back some pet haste, for reference:
Code
        main={ name="Ohtas", augments={'Accuracy+70','Pet: Accuracy+70','Pet: Haste+10%',}},
        range="Animator P +1",
        ammo="Automat. Oil +3",
        head="Hizamaru Somen +1", -- For the martial arts bonus since solo
        body={ name="Pitre Tobe +1", augments={'Enhances "Overdrive" effect',}}, -- for pet STP
        hands={ name="Herculean Gloves", augments={'Pet: Accuracy+24 Pet: Rng. Acc.+24','Pet: "Dbl. Atk."+3','Pet: Attack+7 Pet: Rng.Atk.+7',}},
        legs={ name="Samnuha Tights", augments={'STR+8','DEX+9','"Dbl.Atk."+3','"Triple Atk."+2',}},
        feet="Tali'ah Crackows +1",
        neck="Shulmanu Collar",
        waist="Incarnation Sash",
        left_ear="Mache Earring +1",
        right_ear="Telos Earring",
        left_ring="Varar Ring +1",
        right_ring="Epona's Ring",


I was able to kill fast enough doing simple VS > Armor Shatterer > Light > wait for Shantotto2 to MB 1-2 times for 7.5k > repeat...

I was getting around ~90JP / hour solo. @400JP w/ CP cape (49%)

I'm still very much a noob to pup so please tell me if I am going completely the wrong way about it but this seemed to work decently.

To be fair though, Shantotto was the MVP on those bats though >.>;
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By Antisense 2019-05-23 12:46:21
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That's pretty much the best-case scenario for PUP CP solo (Shantotto II and automaton SC doing the bulk of the damage). You could also do 5-step double light.
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By Asura.Fabiano 2019-05-23 14:15:15
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Aerix said: »
You had the part about the head slot correct. It's only the third slot that is situational.

Cape+Head must always be sacrificed for Pet: Haste (if not using Ohtas) to avoid too much DPS loss as Herculean Helm doesn't have native TA+2% before augments on it unlike Herc Hands/Feet. Path C Ryuo Head +1 is a decent alternative that I personally use, but that's only because KKK AM3 or Xiucoatl Path B provide enough multiattack.

In any case, using Cape+Head will net you 16-17% Pet: Haste, which means you need another 9% elsewhere to reach 25-26%. The only solo slots to provide that much are Weapon, Legs or Waist.

Good point on the Head, I didn't really consider it! Looks like I'll need to revisit my Combined TP sets later :)
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-05-29 23:00:01
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Is it something missing from the guide or is it something ppl don't do: overdrive setup with valoredge body / more along the lines of boneslayer type?
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By Asura.Elizabet 2019-05-29 23:01:16
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Asura.Elizabet said: »
wich I failed most of the time cause TP set aint stellar.

DERP. I was missing a speedloader in the maton's setup. 5 steps all day now >.>;
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By Asura.Sechs 2019-05-30 02:10:20
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I finished capping my PUP in Ra'kaznar against big bats, I was doing multistep SC between myself and the Automaton.
I tried different setups but these are the problems I faced

1) You need a lot of accuracy for both you and your automaton, so you need to plan your food/gear accordingly to make sure both are at capped acc.

2) It's very hard to find the right balance between STP, multiattack, accuracy in Gear/Attachments to make sure that you keep going with the multistep. Past the third step the timing starts being pretty strict and a single miss (or lack of MultiAttack proc) can mean interrupting the SC

3) The Automaton AI is a bit clunky. Sometimes it waits 1300+ TP for WSing, sometimes it WSs right at 1000+. Not sure what creates this randomness (multiattack procs?) but the result is that its timing is sometimes too fast sometimes too slow. In the first case it means he will be able to keep the SC going, but won't give you (the master) enough time to get 1000TP and let the SC proceed. Some other times he's too slow and the SC will fail.



I tested a lot of stuff and back then I was blessed to be using Cornelia trust, but still while I managed to cap my CP to 2100 just fine, I have to admit things weren't as smooth as I wanted them to be, SC was failing more often than I wanted it to happen, making me lose CP chain etc.

On easier mobs I didn't have this problem, but mostly because easier stuff was dead on step 4 of the SC lol.



Gear wise
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