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On Healing Hands - A Comprehensive WHM Guide (V2)
Server: Asura
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Posts: 334
By Asura.Krystela 2016-01-20 11:26:40
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »*Waves to everyone*
I'm just going to add something here since this is going back and forth and felt it appropriate to add something to this.
I will have to apologize to Flip because I thought S-E stated that power caps at 700. Looking back at the history, I don't think S-E ever stated an actual hard cap. However caps were determined, I would imagine, with a Brew when the patch first dropped and that's how the player base determined the existing Power base when it first came out. (600 for Cure, and 700 for all other Cure tiers as per BG). 999 MND + 200 Skill (very easy for any decent WHM at the time) would easily find the 700 cap.
Before this discussion goes too much further, I'd like to remind everyone that the Cure formula is function of Skill, Mind, and Vit.
If your MND and VIT is sufficiently high enough, you're going to obviously see a cap "soft cap" on Skill. If, for example, your MND is 300 (150 Power) and your VIT is 150 (37 Power when floored), your total power is already 187. If the cap is 700 power, you'll hit that cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 187 = 513 Healing Skill. Likewise, if your MND is 200 (100 Power) and VIT is 120 (30 Power), you'll hit cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 130 = 570 Healing Skill.
Therefore, there isn't a real cap on Healing Skill unless you happen to have 700 Healing Skill and 0 MND and 0 VIT which is impossible since you'll never have 0 stat of anything (normally).
I don't know enough about Gifts, JPs, etc to answer any further questions past that, but I wanted to clarify this since it seems to be a point of contention ATM.
TLDR: There is no real cap to Healing Skill, but your Healing Power can show a cap to your Healing Skill as it's a function of three stats (Skill, MND, and VIT). I would recommend anyone looking at a healing sets to at least use 500 Skill if able too just for maximum Tranquil Heart potency though. Everything seems to still be accurate. Today, it's very easy as a whm to hit the 700 power cap without being in abyssea.
My only problem, is the new escha areas have vorseals, which is very much like abyssea atmas, and those vorseals seems to exceed the power cap.
My whm is power capped outside of escha and the numbers are stable, but in escha with MND/VIT vorseals, the numbers gets bigger. How would this be explained using the cure formula? Vorseals are seen as cure potency/cure received?
 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2016-01-20 11:44:15
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »*Waves to everyone*
I'm just going to add something here since this is going back and forth and felt it appropriate to add something to this.
I will have to apologize to Flip because I thought S-E stated that power caps at 700. Looking back at the history, I don't think S-E ever stated an actual hard cap. However caps were determined, I would imagine, with a Brew when the patch first dropped and that's how the player base determined the existing Power base when it first came out. (600 for Cure, and 700 for all other Cure tiers as per BG). 999 MND + 200 Skill (very easy for any decent WHM at the time) would easily find the 700 cap.
Before this discussion goes too much further, I'd like to remind everyone that the Cure formula is function of Skill, Mind, and Vit.
If your MND and VIT is sufficiently high enough, you're going to obviously see a cap "soft cap" on Skill. If, for example, your MND is 300 (150 Power) and your VIT is 150 (37 Power when floored), your total power is already 187. If the cap is 700 power, you'll hit that cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 187 = 513 Healing Skill. Likewise, if your MND is 200 (100 Power) and VIT is 120 (30 Power), you'll hit cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 130 = 570 Healing Skill.
Therefore, there isn't a real cap on Healing Skill unless you happen to have 700 Healing Skill and 0 MND and 0 VIT which is impossible since you'll never have 0 stat of anything (normally).
I don't know enough about Gifts, JPs, etc to answer any further questions past that, but I wanted to clarify this since it seems to be a point of contention ATM.
TLDR: There is no real cap to Healing Skill, but your Healing Power can show a cap to your Healing Skill as it's a function of three stats (Skill, MND, and VIT). I would recommend anyone looking at a healing sets to at least use 500 Skill if able too just for maximum Tranquil Heart potency though. Everything seems to still be accurate. Today, it's very easy as a whm to hit the 700 power cap without being in abyssea.
My only problem, is the new escha areas have vorseals, which is very much like abyssea atmas, and those vorseals seems to exceed the power cap.
My whm is power capped outside of escha and the numbers are stable, but in escha with MND/VIT vorseals, the numbers gets bigger. How would this be explained using the cure formula? Vorseals are seen as cure potency/cure received?
As I'm currently not playing the game, I can't give you a straight answer to this. However, I can at least provide the steps/procedure to determine "what's up" and maybe help out with any theorycraft pushing forward to determine this.
S-E is fairly notorious for putting things that weren't announced in XI and this is probably no exception to this rule.
Here are some of my basic thoughts behind this for now (will have to keep it somewhat brief since I'm at work):
1) Does the zone give you a bonus just by being in the zone?
You can prove this by seeing if your Cures exceed the existing cap WITHOUT any additional benefits. Put on the biggest cure set (be sure to be above 700 power) you can find before you step into the zone and find your max values (they should match existing formulas and not exceed them) and see if you're values go up using the exact same variables/gear/stats (no Atmas/Signet/ w/e buffs there may be). IF it goes up, it might be something to do with the zone itself.
2) Do the Atma style buffs give you bonus Cure power?
This might be a bit trickier to prove. At a glance when thinking about it, it might be best to build a set that exceeds 700 power and record your results outside the zone. Then, go into the zone and attempt to replicate the exact same stats but includes the usage of Vorseals.
IE, if you're outside with 300 MND, 150 VIT, and 500 Skill, make sure you have a set inside the zone that includes your Vorseal buff that makes 300 MND, 150 VIT, and 500 Skill.
See if this increases your cap.
======
It'll get trickier from here depending on how the results go but this is probably a good start.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-01-20 11:53:47
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »*Waves to everyone*
I'm just going to add something here since this is going back and forth and felt it appropriate to add something to this.
I will have to apologize to Flip because I thought S-E stated that power caps at 700. Looking back at the history, I don't think S-E ever stated an actual hard cap. However caps were determined, I would imagine, with a Brew when the patch first dropped and that's how the player base determined the existing Power base when it first came out. (600 for Cure, and 700 for all other Cure tiers as per BG). 999 MND + 200 Skill (very easy for any decent WHM at the time) would easily find the 700 cap.
Before this discussion goes too much further, I'd like to remind everyone that the Cure formula is function of Skill, Mind, and Vit.
If your MND and VIT is sufficiently high enough, you're going to obviously see a cap "soft cap" on Skill. If, for example, your MND is 300 (150 Power) and your VIT is 150 (37 Power when floored), your total power is already 187. If the cap is 700 power, you'll hit that cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 187 = 513 Healing Skill. Likewise, if your MND is 200 (100 Power) and VIT is 120 (30 Power), you'll hit cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 130 = 570 Healing Skill.
Therefore, there isn't a real cap on Healing Skill unless you happen to have 700 Healing Skill and 0 MND and 0 VIT which is impossible since you'll never have 0 stat of anything (normally).
I don't know enough about Gifts, JPs, etc to answer any further questions past that, but I wanted to clarify this since it seems to be a point of contention ATM.
TLDR: There is no real cap to Healing Skill, but your Healing Power can show a cap to your Healing Skill as it's a function of three stats (Skill, MND, and VIT). I would recommend anyone looking at a healing sets to at least use 500 Skill if able too just for maximum Tranquil Heart potency though. Everything seems to still be accurate. Today, it's very easy as a whm to hit the 700 power cap without being in abyssea.
My only problem, is the new escha areas have vorseals, which is very much like abyssea atmas, and those vorseals seems to exceed the power cap.
My whm is power capped outside of escha and the numbers are stable, but in escha with MND/VIT vorseals, the numbers gets bigger. How would this be explained using the cure formula? Vorseals are seen as cure potency/cure received?
As I'm currently not playing the game, I can't give you a straight answer to this. However, I can at least provide the steps/procedure to determine "what's up" and maybe help out with any theorycraft pushing forward to determine this.
S-E is fairly notorious for putting things that weren't announced in XI and this is probably no exception to this rule.
Here are some of my basic thoughts behind this for now (will have to keep it somewhat brief since I'm at work):
1) Does the zone give you a bonus just by being in the zone?
You can prove this by seeing if your Cures exceed the existing cap WITHOUT any additional benefits. Put on the biggest cure set (be sure to be above 700 power) you can find before you step into the zone and find your max values (they should match existing formulas and not exceed them) and see if you're values go up using the exact same variables/gear/stats (no Atmas/Signet/ w/e buffs there may be). IF it goes up, it might be something to do with the zone itself.
2) Do the Atma style buffs give you bonus Cure power?
This might be a bit trickier to prove. At a glance when thinking about it, it might be best to build a set that exceeds 700 power and record your results outside the zone. Then, go into the zone and attempt to replicate the exact same stats but includes the usage of Vorseals.
IE, if you're outside with 300 MND, 150 VIT, and 500 Skill, make sure you have a set inside the zone that includes your Vorseal buff that makes 300 MND, 150 VIT, and 500 Skill.
See if this increases your cap.
======
It'll get trickier from here depending on how the results go but this is probably a good start. I can answer one of the questions, the vorseals are putted on as soon as you go in zone but you can upgrade them by killing a monster and buying the upgraded version with an area specific currency.
I am not sure if I can take them off, but they do wear off at some point. So I could probably check it by staying in there forever for them to wear.
The vorseals themselves are shown as int/chr/mnd and vit/str/dex/agi, I doubt they add invisible "cure power", but its SE, we never know xD.
I will try to check this today if I have some free time. I also have to add the power to the previous post I made on outside areas, didn't had time to do so.
Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2016-01-20 12:00:01
I can answer one of the questions, the vorseals are putted on as soon as you go in zone but you can upgrade them by killing a monster and buying the upgraded version with an area specific currency.
I am not sure if I can take them off, but they do wear off at some point. So I could probably check it by staying in there forever for them to wear.
I will try to check this today if I have some free time. I also have to add the power to the previous post I made on outside areas, didn't had time to do so.
I read up a little bit on BG Wiki what they do and I feel you should be able to cancel them without issue since they are a buff that can expire after an hour, but take that with a massive heaping of salt. lol.
I don't check FFXIAH very often but I'll try to check up on this thread a bit more just to help out where I can.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-01-20 12:06:59
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »I can answer one of the questions, the vorseals are putted on as soon as you go in zone but you can upgrade them by killing a monster and buying the upgraded version with an area specific currency.
I am not sure if I can take them off, but they do wear off at some point. So I could probably check it by staying in there forever for them to wear.
I will try to check this today if I have some free time. I also have to add the power to the previous post I made on outside areas, didn't had time to do so.
I read up a little bit on BG Wiki what they do and I feel you should be able to cancel them without issue since they are a buff that can expire after an hour, but take that with a massive heaping of salt. lol.
I don't check FFXIAH very often but I'll try to check up on this thread a bit more just to help out where I can. Thanks a lot for your help :)
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-01-20 12:38:29
If anyone wants to do what Ghis suggested, please do so. My days are busy lately and it may take a while until I get the test fully done.
I wanna avoid another Flippant angry at me situation :p
(No harsh feelings)
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2016-01-20 15:18:28
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »*Waves to everyone*
Ghish! Long time no see!
I log in to post findings to confirm your original stuff and see it's already been sorted >.> well that was a fun waste of an hour.
@Krystela, I used to ignore the tells from people arguing against maths. If they're not intelligent enough to do math, then they should accept what they're told as truth.
That's my philosophy at least, it also meant I could ignore 95% of the trash that got sent my way and help with actual questions with some foundation.
[+]
Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2016-01-20 17:45:31
If anyone wants to do what Ghis suggested, please do so. My days are busy lately and it may take a while until I get the test fully done.
I wanna avoid another Flippant angry at me situation :p
(No harsh feelings)
Nah, Flip doesn't get mad, Flip's just blunt~ I ran a lot of theorycraft with her just to get her thoughts behind things since she tends to know a wide range of things that goes on XI.
Just to add to that chain of discussion, if Escha inexplicably adds a higher cap, there's gotta be a few things to test:
1) Does the zone itself have an increased cap / bonus? Refer to my first test above to determine this.
2) Does the Vorseals provide stats that go beyond the cap / have a cure bonus? Refer to my second test from above.
2a) IF the Vorseals do provide a bonus, would it be an increased cap? I was thinking maybe the stats from the Vorseals themselves surpass the cap (so say you have +20 MND (+10 power) +20 VIT (+5 power) from Vorseals, your cap is now 715? Relatively easy to test if it gets that far
2b) IF the Vorseals do provide a bonus, would it be a +% potency bonus? A bit easy to test since you'd expect heals to be similar with same MND and VIT values, but Vorseals might provide more (can detail if we get there).
Ragnarok.Ghishlain said: »*Waves to everyone*
Ghish! Long time no see!
I log in to post findings to confirm your original stuff and see it's already been sorted >.> well that was a fun waste of an hour.
*Waves more* Hi :)
And it's always good to re-preform tests at times since you never know when S-E might hotfix certain aspects of the game >>; Like the Escha discussion above, lol.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-01-20 20:13:41
Tested on a character without any JP. I don't have many Vorseals since I just came back, but it should be enough to see a difference, assuming they'd act no different than any other MND or VIT stats. Tested only Cure I because I just don't have enough gear to confidently test much higher than 700 power.
5 VIT+ Vorseals
2 MND+ Vorseals
50% Cure Potency I
(Vorseals are included in total)
MND: 248
VIT: 198
Skill: 528
97
MND: 254
VIT: 198
Skill: 528
97
MND: 221
VIT: 173
Skill: 521
97
97 would be the expected Cure I cap for no gifts/JP. So MND and VIT vorseals, at the least, have no effect on Cure I past power cap, up to 704 power.
[+]
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-01-21 20:08:48
Ragnarok.Flippant said: »Tested on a character without any JP. I don't have many Vorseals since I just came back, but it should be enough to see a difference, assuming they'd act no different than any other MND or VIT stats. Tested only Cure I because I just don't have enough gear to confidently test much higher than 700 power.
5 VIT+ Vorseals
2 MND+ Vorseals
50% Cure Potency I
(Vorseals are included in total)
MND: 248
VIT: 198
Skill: 528
97
MND: 254
VIT: 198
Skill: 528
97
MND: 221
VIT: 173
Skill: 521
97
97 would be the expected Cure I cap for no gifts/JP. So MND and VIT vorseals, at the least, have no effect on Cure I past power cap, up to 704 power. That is right, I underestimated my friends. It appears they wear cure receive gears everytime my heal is incoming. I went in and healed myself and my numbers didn't move one bit.
Sorry, it's my mistake. I should of looked myself before even bringing it up xD {Please forgive me}
I am a bit lost as how I will remake the healing sets now, since not everyone is going to have 2100 Job point on whm. The updating will take some time, please bare with me.
Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2016-01-22 09:29:32
Asura.Alfylicious said: »Hahaha Thanks Ghish.
Had fun tinkering with sets with you last night. Maybe this weekend I'll actually get around to perfecting some easily obtainable sets. ˆˆ
I think you might be thanking the wrong person as I don't know anything about current gearing meta ^^; Still, glad someone was able to help ya out~
That is right, I underestimated my friends. It appears they wear cure receive gears everytime my heal is incoming. I went in and healed myself and my numbers didn't move one bit.
Sorry, it's my mistake. I should of looked myself before even bringing it up xD {Please forgive me}
I am a bit lost as how I will remake the healing sets now, since not everyone is going to have 2100 Job point on whm. The updating will take some time, please bare with me.
It's all good, mistakes happen and discussion / testing is what confirms / denies some things =p
Happy set making~
[+]
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By Shiva.Applesmash 2016-01-29 20:02:34
AF3 Body ?
Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2016-01-30 17:19:46
Asura.Alfylicious said: »Looks like the maximum Stoneskin from Afflatus Solace is 300.
So in order to Cap cureskin without AF3+1 you need to cure for 1200.
With AF3+1 you only need to cure for 770.
That's fairly significant. Is my math wrong here?
With AF3+1 I would likely be able to cap cureskin with a normal Cure III, where as with Kaykaus, I would have to use CureV to cap cureskin.
Perhaps Kaykaus is only good for Curagas and or possible Aurorastorm Cures?
Thoughts?
Typically AF3+1 beats it on paper, we're arguing the difference of a couple points of HP recovery (which your targets normally capped regardless from your cure) vs a Mitigating effect, which normally provides greater returns.
If you can cap using Cure V (not logged in to test this so~) then perhaps use that body for C5/6 as they're your Oh ***Cures and you're more using those to bridge the gap rather than worrying about stoneskin, but thats more of a play style issue than anything else.
By ibm2431 2016-02-02 06:03:11
I don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but for the Non-Yagrush -Na sets, the gear haste is only 23%. You needed Theullaic Ecu+1 to reach 25%.
(And before anyone else spends 15 minutes adding up Fast Cast values, don't forget that Divine Benison trait is 50/25 like I did.)
Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2016-02-03 16:25:51
I don't know if it's been pointed out yet, but for the Non-Yagrush -Na sets, the gear haste is only 23%. You needed Theullaic Ecu+1 to reach 25%.
(And before anyone else spends 15 minutes adding up Fast Cast values, don't forget that Divine Benison trait is 50/25 like I did.)
Good catch.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-02-04 20:19:33
I will change it...someday. I did 23% because of ionis, but I dont think no one does stuffs in adoulin anymore.
Edit: Nevermind, I wont add thuellaic because I made the sets to show the divine veil grip.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-02-04 20:21:30
Asura.Alfylicious said: »Thanks for the reply!!!
I'd really hate to undervalue the use of Cureskin. I also seemed to be having some issues with Nourishing Earring +1's cure potency. Is it only 3~4% Total or 6~7% Total? With my other set it was at 50% cure potency assuming I was getting 7%... It seemed to not be the case with testing so I finally made a stable solid non-weather set. It's 7% but only if your unity is number 1. If you are under apururu, that's pretty much a full time thing.
For your set:
There is no real "best set" anymore.
Pretty much goes by these standards:
50% Cure potency
As much cure pot II you can get
700 power ((MND/2)+(VIT/4)+Healing skill)
-50 Enmity
Af3 Pants
What you add after that is up to you, can do conserve MP for the fun of it. Personally I enjoy the free MH spots.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-02-04 20:37:03
Asura.Alfylicious said: »Looks like the maximum Stoneskin from Afflatus Solace is 300.
So in order to Cap cureskin without AF3+1 you need to cure for 1200.
With AF3+1 you only need to cure for 770.
That's fairly significant. Is my math wrong here?
With AF3+1 I would likely be able to cap cureskin with a normal Cure III, where as with Kaykaus, I would have to use CureV to cap cureskin.
Perhaps Kaykaus is only good for Curagas and or possible Aurorastorm Cures?
Thoughts? I am pretty sure we proved otherwise with fullcure. Fullcure Stoneskin does more than 300. I wouldn't see why it would differ for normal cures. Fullcure without solace, dont get stoneskin effect.
If your cure power is capped and Cure pot/Cure pot II is too, there is still the cure received gears *** by your target affecting it.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-02-04 20:43:38
I have to change the healing sets but I have been super busy. I will have some free time this weekend to try to fix them at least, before school swallows me whole.
I have no life.
Please forgive me ;_;
By ibm2431 2016-02-09 14:07:10
Goal was a no-storm set that hit Power, Potency, Gear Haste, and Enmity caps without using the sub or ammo slots. Idea was to minimize weapon swapping, while using a Queller that'd still be decent for Enfeebling.
ItemSet 341686
Queller Rod: Path B (Cure Potency+15%, MND+15 for Cure Power, M.Acc+15)[Any path acceptable if above 360 JP]
Vanya Hood: Path D (FC+10%, Haste +2%)
Kaykaus Cuffs: Path A (M.Acc+15, MND+10 for Cure Power)
Mending Cape: At least 3 Cure Potency and 3 Healing Skill
Vanya Clogs: Path A (Cure Potency +7%, Enmity -6)
Assuming naked 80 VIT, 140 MND, 440 Healing Skill.
Cure Power (0 JP): 695
Cure Power (80 JP+): 700+
Cure Potency: 50%
Enmity: -51
Gear Haste: 25%
Fast Cast: 16%
Conserve MP: 6
910+ JP WHMs with a Mending Cape with 5 or more Healing Skill can switch Vanya Clogs with Kaykaus Boots Path D for an additional 3% Fast Cast and 6 Conserve MP while still hitting Power/Potency/Enmity caps.
WHMs with Janniston Ring can simply swap that in place of Kuchekula Ring without worry.
Note: The Vanya Hood has the same amount of Fast Cast as Nahtirah Hat, and can replace it for Precast Sets (not for magic accuracy, though).
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-02-10 08:18:14
The changes to Sindri means that if you are lacking things like Nehetrerereheuerheuee (A.Skrimish club), or Gada (Reisenjimma club), probably means that Sindri is now relevent again for people getting into melee WHM.
Just for prospective, at rank 8 the augument stats are:
Acc+29
Attack+16
Double attack+3
That means just as a base your looking at +7% Double attack alone, and combining that with Onca suit, your probably looking at 19% Double attack maxed out (Don't quote me on that).
Which isn't so bad if you per say have, just came back after a very long break. *Stares at Ghishlain*
Of cause the fatal flaw comes in with the missing club skill as a result, but tbh, it's not that bad.
Node 207
Disregardhope is now also contributing to the sets on this guide.
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