On Healing Hands - A Comprehensive WHM Guide (V2)

Was that changed? Ghish already proved years ago that healing skill doesn't cap on cures.

Sure, but consider the numbers I get are in escha with full vorseals and people using cure receive gears. I also have full merit and job point.

ItemSet 341260
Queller's path D, Vanya x2 path B

Would give you exact numbers right now, but I am doing events.

I read it somewhere although where I couldn't tell you.

Ghish's old testing: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36540/on-healing-hands-a-comprehensive-whm-guide/6#2410915

Also went out to Abyssea, 771 Cure IV with 517 skill, and 775 Cure IV when I added Incanter's Torque. Definitely doesn't cap. Incidentally, I accidentally confirmed the overall 700 power cap too.

Good to know. I'm still not sold on the which Cursna Set is better, I've always preferred Weaker but faster casts, and given its marginal I guess which ever reduces inventory space at this point.

This is probably the source of the confusion.
Since healing magic skill is 1:1 (VIT is 4:1 and MND is 2:1) for power, chances are someone said "healing magic skill caps at 700" and then someone else remembered back when 500 "was" the cap (as in when 99 was new)... And confusion just ran its course.

Iirc the Job Point solace buff does NOT break the power cap of 700, right?

I was also wondering about that, plus the cure potency gifts. Are the solace JP bonus and cure potency gifts added to 700 power and +50% potency respectively or do they not break any cap at all?

Did some more testing.

Solace JP and WHM Gifts adds to the base, directly after calculating power. This means: (1) it is not subject to the 700 power cap, and (2) it gains effect from cure pot+ and light weather/day bonus.

Also, Cure Pot I and Cure Pot II are additive, if that was not confirmed.

You tested that they aren't potency but power increases, which we already knew, or you tested cure numbers with 700 potency without job points?

Because just because it's a job point doesn't mean that it breaks a hard cap. (And in the previous thread, someone stated that it was not above the 700 cap. This was back when it first came out and we determined that it was power not potency.)

Neither?

I didn't deliberately test anything about it not being potency %, as I assumed that was already well understood. I tested that they come after power is calculated, but before bonuses from weather, day, and gear. Why would I test without job points? Tested with 14 Solace JP and one gift (+5 iirc).

I accidentally closed the file with numbers last night, and I gotta run now, but if you want to double check, it just takes a minute to check power is capped and cast with Solace on/off. Abyssea makes it really easy to cap if you don't already, and easy to deplete your HP quickly. If not, I'll come back with numbers later.

No, I mean that you had a calculated 700 power without the additional from the Job Points. (obviously that would just be dumb/shitty troll/*** land if I wanted you to remove job points. Sorry for my ambiguity on your ambiguity. lol)

And like you said, with iLv and Abyssea (and the natural 440 from skill) it's easy to reach that 700 there. But one should always double check just to be safe. (One only needs 260 power, and if we take that as: 1/4 from VIT and 3/4 from MND, one would need 260 VIT and 390 MND... and no extra healing magic skill. But that's kinda dumb because the skill is always better... but now I'm just rambling the obvious.)

The idea of Cure 3 being maxed might be right. I went out and tried adding healing skill pieces one by one and the numbers stopped going up after 540 healing skill and kept curing for 604.

Krystela Hume F
Whm sub sch
2100 Job points
15/15 MND & VIT
8/8 Healing skill

No Cure II gears were used, light arts and Afflatus: Solace was used.

Test with Cure 3:
50% Cure potency (serenity, sifahir slacks & piety duckbills +1) 476 Healing skill

C1= 190

C2= 303

C3= 571

C4= 988

+ ebers bliaud +1 500 skill

C1= 192

C2= 306

C3= 585

C4= 1015

+ theophany mitts +1 517 skill

C1= 192

C2= 309

C3= 597

C4= 1041

+ tempered cape +1 525 skill

C1= 192

C2= 310

C3= 600

C4= 1045

+ bishop's sash 530 skill

C1= 192

C2= 310

C3= 601

C4= 1048

+ incanter's torque 540 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ vanya hood 560 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ vanya clogs 600 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ beatific earring 604 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ Sirona's ring 614 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ healing earring 617 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

+ Haoma's ring 625 skill

C1= 192

C2= 312

C3= 604

C4= 1054

I couldn't do C5/C6 testing due to max HP issues, I will go in abyssea tomorrow to test it. It seems C1 capped at 500 Healing skill, but C2/C3/C4 capped at 540 Magic skill. Althoughts, C2 stalled at 310 for a really long time and then went to 312 at 540. This makes me believe that the healing skill does caps at 540 for cures, but I cannot say for sure until I did C5 and C6.

The max Healing skill you can get as a set would be 639 skill using Ababinili +1 and curatio grip. The max set I had on me was 625 skill, I will try the 639 skill set tomorrow for science.

Wouldn't then if that logic is applying to Cure 3, then it would also be applying to Cure 2 and Cure?

Edit: and if it isn't couldn't it potentially mean Cure 3 is bugged, and needs to be reported?

Assuming that weaker spells have a lower cap? Good question!

Yes, but I can't say it is 100% as I cant test right now. I have some stuff to do irl ;_;

Was Ghish's testing done before the cure formula changes? If that's the case then we can't assume it's still accurate, not to mention Krystela's results refute his testing.

Assuming there's not something flawed in her methodology, then perhaps the suspected formula is that each spell has it's own cap, which is where the 500 skill cap originally came from (tested on Cure 3?) Although I had always heard it as 540 back in WhirlingWind when Embrava was a big thing not 500.

If this can be replicated (I'll log in tonight just to test this) then it can be argued that there may be a hidden cap on Healing skill on Cursna which would put more credence on my reservations about stacking skill over Cursna + stats and recast.

This should be interesting!

Is there a quick summary of the priorities for Escha/Reisenjima WHM gear? I've just started paying attention to updating my mule WHM, which was up-to-date pre-Rhapsodies (full 119 reforge gear, all relevant Adoulin stuff, and the applicable pre-135 UNM pieces).

So far I've picked up a Queller's Rod, Vanya head/feet, Chironic Hose. What order should I attack other Rhapsodies gear? I'm particularly unclear on which abjuration stuff may still be worth it or significantly better than alternatives, given (1) I'd be talking NQ Abj stuff only, and (2) Reisenjima exists and might have replaced or come close to some pieces I've seen mentioned.

I'm looking more at healing/enfeebling/backline role. Not that I don't think seeing the melee sets is cool, and I *do* wish I could be like Skjalf and friends sometimes, but that's not really how I plan to use my WHM ;)

I also do see the "perfect" sets posted, which are really nice to refer to. But as someone just diving into the Rhapsodies gear I'm trying to figure out where to start to get the most bang for my buck.

His testing was done after.

Noted: I'll see what I get (I'll record and upload as well)

Queller Rod Path D for Healing Magic. Queller Rod Path C for Flah Nova. Clemency Grip for use with Ababinili +1. Gada (need to get that still >.<) - it looks nice for all kinds of things. Vanya pieces Skjalf went with Healing Magic Skill path on all (Cures / Cursna). Doyen Pants and Nodens Gorget for Stoneskin. Chironic hat for Aquaveil. Chironic slippers for Divine Magic nuking (Medium's sabots from Sinister Reign for non-nuke Divine Magic and Enfeebling Magic). Chironic pieces can be made into DD pieces or defensive pieces as well. Skjalf has Chance of block+3 on several now. Can always make a 2nd set. :3 Don't forget Fanatic Gloves from Sinister Reign. Also, Jokushu Chain for Undead Banish. Warder torques... Henic Torque first. :) Assuage Earring and Amar Cluster, Relucent Cape for TPing. Penetrating Cape for Realmrazer. There are probably more... um...

The post is updated with tiers 1-4. I will do 5/6 tomorrow in abyssea and try with a 639 skill set to see if it breaks a "barrier". This is all I could do for the night, I gotta bed now ;_;

Skill is only one part of the equation. Your numbers don't really mean anything on their own because they don't tell us your total power, so we wouldn't be able to tell if it's the skill or the power that's capping.

_________________________________

Long day, so sorry I'm late on this. It's a little difficult because my account with WHM JP isn't geared for WHM. I'll go into more detail this time. I'm relying on BG wiki to be mostly up-to-date.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Cure_Formula

I tested without solace. Since I have one gift, that's +5 "Cure Potency." I only added MND, so we know that nothing is being affected directly by skill.

Static Variables:
208 VIT
497 skill
50% potency

MND	Power	I	II	III	IV
291	694	105	223	514	963
303	700	105	225	517	967
321	709	105	225	517	967

Using the cure formula: Now we want to know how my 5 "Cure Potency" is being used. As I said before, it's added to the base, right before potency %. Note each step is floored.
(((Power-Power Floor) / Rate) + HP Floor + "Cure Potency") * Cure Potency Equip

Since we're capping, the formula can be shortened:
(HP Floor + "Cure Potency") * Cure Potency Equip

Cure I: (65+5) * 1.5 = 105
Cure II: (145+5) * 1.5 = 225
Cure III: (340+5) * 1.5 = 517.5
Cure IV: (640+5) * 1.5 = 967

My results are exactly as expected at cap.

Let's calculate Krystela's numbers. She has +40 potency from Solace JP and +23 from gifts:
Cure I: (65+63) * 1.5 = 192
Cure II: (145+63) * 1.5 = 312
Cure III: (340+63) * 1.5 = 604.5
Cure IV: (640+63) * 1.5 = 1054.5

Her results are exactly as expected at cap.

Let's also briefly look at one of my uncapped cures to determine if "Cure Potency" added before or after Rate is applied:
Cure II: ( ( (694-400)/20) + 130 + 5 ) * 1.5 = 223.5

"Cure potency" comes before d power is divided by rate.

What we can conclude:
1. Cure I caps somewhere before 700 power (BG already suggests it's 600).
2. Cure II, III, and IV cap at 700 power.
3. "Cure Potency" Job Points and Gifts add directly to the base, and do not contribute to the power cap.

It's possible there is some tier or something after 700 power, but I doubt it because (1) Ghish told me SE already stated there is a 700 power cap, although he didn't give me a link and (2) the formula would act completely differently for that tier if that were the case, because we no longer see any scaling, as we do for known tiers.

Because that wasn't what I was going for, the numbers you posted about the base power, we had it tested 3-4 pages ago.

I just wanted to see healing magic skill behavior with full gifts since I had someone sending me a tell today about healing skill being capped with gifts only, which as been proven to be false.

Then I don't understand what
is supposed to mean. Are you not implying that regardless of your overall power, healing skill's contributions for cures caps at 540? How can you conclude that, unless you cap at a number that is sub-700 power?

I didn't conclude it, I said "This makes me believe" followed by it needs further testings. This is just the results of what I got so far. I cannot do more testings tonight.

Thanks for your contribution.

But when your cures are reverse-calculated, you're obviously already at 700 power. If, as you say, you already knew this 3-4 pages ago, why would you expect healing skill to have an effect after that?

If you really want to test skill further, you would have to lower your MND and VIT before you add more skill again. If you actually wanted to test 639 skill, you're going to need to have around only 120 MND 0 VIT total.

The thing is that the average Joe's doesn't know or care about the formula and those average joe's sends me tells everyday for this kind of proof. Which, I provide because yes, there is people that will argue that healing/MND/Vit will still affect your numbers after the power is capped.

As for the rest of the test, I already had planned doing mind/power tests after the skill, but you did it so it saves me time.

Drawing inaccurate conclusions and spreading bad information doesn't really help those people. It's irresponsible and bad for everyone. If they don't know or care about the numbers, it'd be better for you to simply convey that such a cap exists (ie this is the information you put in a tl;dr at the bottom of a post) rather than to arbitrarily place it at a value that may not be accurate in their own situation.

No one is trying to spread bad information. We're just demonstrating that healing numbers doesn't go higher past a certain point.

Personally, I am not convinced there is a cap just because of how escha vorseals behave on our cure numbers. Because if power was capped, the numbers shouldn't be moving either in or out of those areas, right? Unless vorseals are calculated differently.

*Waves to everyone*

I'm just going to add something here since this is going back and forth and felt it appropriate to add something to this.

I will have to apologize to Flip because I thought S-E stated that power caps at 700. Looking back at the history, I don't think S-E ever stated an actual hard cap. However caps were determined, I would imagine, with a Brew when the patch first dropped and that's how the player base determined the existing Power base when it first came out. (600 for Cure, and 700 for all other Cure tiers as per BG). 999 MND + 200 Skill (very easy for any decent WHM at the time) would easily find the 700 cap.

Before this discussion goes too much further, I'd like to remind everyone that the Cure formula is function of Skill, Mind, and Vit.

If your MND and VIT is sufficiently high enough, you're going to obviously see a cap "soft cap" on Skill. If, for example, your MND is 300 (150 Power) and your VIT is 150 (37 Power when floored), your total power is already 187. If the cap is 700 power, you'll hit that cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 187 = 513 Healing Skill. Likewise, if your MND is 200 (100 Power) and VIT is 120 (30 Power), you'll hit cap with a Healing Skill of 700 - 130 = 570 Healing Skill.

Therefore, there isn't a real cap on Healing Skill unless you happen to have 700 Healing Skill and 0 MND and 0 VIT which is impossible since you'll never have 0 stat of anything (normally). It's also important, when testing, to state what MND and VIT you're using as those values will obviously cap how much Skill you can put into the equation before it stops increasing your Cure Power.

I don't know enough about Gifts, JPs, etc to answer any further questions past that, but I wanted to clarify this since it seems to be a point of contention ATM.

TLDR: There is no real cap to Healing Skill, but your Healing Power can show a cap to your Healing Skill as it's a function of three stats (Skill, MND, and VIT). I would recommend anyone looking at a healing sets to at least use 500 Skill if able too just for maximum Tranquil Heart potency though.

[Editted for some clarity / more explanation]

EDIT: Also, in case anyone wants to know when Cure formulas was initially changed, it happened on March 26th, 2012 (JST).