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Ixion for BRD
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-01-26 23:58:05
Bismarck.Altar said: Bahamut.Kaioshin said: Lol you know there was half truth to what I said really just elitist bards were like RAWR WE LOVE OUR JOB!
Not really. My mains are Pld and War. It's just that a lot of new people read these forums, so if you're going to be saying something as if it's a fact, you should be sure that it actually is.
Quick rule of thumb for brd:
debuff: MAcc > Chr > skill
buff: Instrument bonus > Skill (both singing and instrumental)
1 MACC = 1 Skill, no?
 Bismarck.Altar
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1676
By Bismarck.Altar 2010-01-27 00:03:25
MAcc will always be highest, depending on the diff between your chr and your target's chr, Chr will vary from 0.5 to 1 macc, and depending on total skill, the relationship between skill and macc varies, certainly far from always being 1:1. Although, like I posted earlier, for bard I'm not sure that exact testing has been done like it has for blm/rdm enfeebles.
Hence i said "Quick" >.>
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-01-27 00:05:52
Bismarck.Altar said: MAcc will always be highest, depending on the diff between your chr and your target's chr, Chr will vary from 0.5 to 1 macc, and depending on total skill, the relationship between skill and macc varies, certainly far from always being 1:1. Although, like I posted earlier, for bard I'm not sure that exact testing has been done like it has for blm/rdm enfeebles.
Hence i said "Quick" >.> Yeah... Can we get some test data on that? >.> I was under the impression it was more that songs had an inherently low MACC a la 1000 Needles. dCHR I'm aware of, but I'm really feeling Occam's Razor has a place here where MACC and Skill are concerned.
EDIT: On the other hand, BRD songs are unique in simultaneously drawing from 2 different skills. The logic works both ways =\ I feel that it would most likely work as a 1:1 or 2:1 relationship though and probably not one where it shifts between the two depending on how much skill you have. Do you have evidence (even anecdotal) to the contrary?
 Bahamut.Kaioshin
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1802
By Bahamut.Kaioshin 2010-01-27 00:23:39
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Bismarck.Altar said: Bahamut.Kaioshin said: Lol you know there was half truth to what I said really just elitist bards were like RAWR WE LOVE OUR JOB! Not really. My mains are Pld and War. It's just that a lot of new people read these forums, so if you're going to be saying something as if it's a fact, you should be sure that it actually is. Quick rule of thumb for brd: debuff: MAcc > Chr > skill buff: Instrument bonus > Skill (both singing and instrumental) 1 MACC = 1 Skill, no?
I just said what I noticed from playing my bard. I actually never get to come brd for HNMs and gods so I don't know about higher tier resists and what not I usually come nin/drk or cor
Bismarck.Altar
Server: Bismarck
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1676
By Bismarck.Altar 2010-01-27 00:30:03
Ya, I'm not really sure how it would work tbh. I was just referring to Enternius's post when I was using numbers...
Siren.Enternius said: The 0.9 you're thinking of is for skill. After 200 skill, adding 1 skill gives 0.9 ACC, but after 400-450ish, adding 1 skill gives 0.5.
I'm not sure where the 0.5 came from, I couldn't find it on a *quick* run through of wiki/BG.
I don't know about how it works for Rdm/Blm, as I don't have those jobs, but it does make sense that Macc/skill would drop as skill levels increased, I know that acc&att/skill drops in melee jobs after you hit certain tiers. The 0.5 seems a bit excessive, but ya, no idea.
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 10387
By Siren.Enternius 2010-01-27 09:43:44
Bismarck.Altar said: Ya, I'm not really sure how it would work tbh. I was just referring to Enternius's post when I was using numbers...
Siren.Enternius said: The 0.9 you're thinking of is for skill. After 200 skill, adding 1 skill gives 0.9 ACC, but after 400-450ish, adding 1 skill gives 0.5.
I'm not sure where the 0.5 came from, I couldn't find it on a *quick* run through of wiki/BG.
I don't know about how it works for Rdm/Blm, as I don't have those jobs, but it does make sense that Macc/skill would drop as skill levels increased, I know that acc&att/skill drops in melee jobs after you hit certain tiers. The 0.5 seems a bit excessive, but ya, no idea. Kind of delayed, but the .5 stems from the fact that it uses two different skills and as such each skill only contributes half of what normal skills would. BRD has C skill in all instruments, so 225 each, which adds up to 450 combined. By that logic, BRD should have twice as much M.ACC as other mages, no?
No is right. Skill only contributes half or what it normally would on other mages, just because of the nature of BRD songs. As such, Skill is almost strictly a buff-only skill since it's the only thing that affects potency of Minuet, March, etc besides "March+2" or what have you. And you would need twice as much skill to just compare with M.ACC. So yes, M.ACC > CHR > Skill for debuffs.
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 521
By Shiva.Jimmyjazz 2010-01-27 10:57:52
You guys realize this has been necro'd 2x?
OP bought Ix.cloak, seems happy with it. Difference between 10Chr body+roundlet could be debatably negligible, however, I'll stick with houppe/roundlet.
Yes you can get cheaper refresh on a body but afaik they dont come hand in hand with a regen which was part of the appeal in my wanting to scoop one up. Minstrel/Sorceror/Medicine/(etc.) ring argument is moot because if you're not forcing you're 75% with swaps then you're doing it wrong.
A great idle piece for the jobs that can use it. Somewhat still overpriced imo but won't break the bank for most.
can we /end thread now?
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-01-27 11:58:22
Siren.Enternius said: Kind of delayed, but the .5 stems from the fact that it uses two different skills and as such each skill only contributes half of what normal skills would. BRD has C skill in all instruments, so 225 each, which adds up to 450 combined. By that logic, BRD should have twice as much M.ACC as other mages, no?
No is right. Skill only contributes half or what it normally would on other mages, just because of the nature of BRD songs. As such, Skill is almost strictly a buff-only skill since it's the only thing that affects potency of Minuet, March, etc besides "March 2" or what have you. And you would need twice as much skill to just compare with M.ACC. So yes, M.ACC > CHR > Skill for debuffs. The detail you're missing is that certain spells have inherently higher or lower MACC than others. Flash and Stun land with even sub-level skill on HNM-level targets, whereas 1000 Needles has a nasty habit of missing if you don't pair it with Elemental Seal. It's conceivable that songs were designed with an inherently low MACC to compensate for the abnormally high amount of Skill behind them.
Also, the 1:0.9 relationship: disproven months ago. It may be 2:1, it may be 1:1, but I assure you it's not 1:0.9.
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Wondering if this is a better debuff item or not than what is normally used?
Ixion offers CHR+13 and MACC+5
Errant (or Osode) offers +10 CHR
AF2 hat offers CHR+5 making a total of +15
Demon Helm+1 would be +16 CHR
What I'm wondering is that Singing+5 on AF2 hat.. since Wind/Singing are sorta tied together.. is that +5 really only giving me sort of half?
What exactly does Singing/Wind have to do with debuffing and sleep? I've always thought Skill+ was the way to go.
I'm guess it's not better than MACC+5 on Ixion but.. BRD doesn't get resist much anyway?
I'm not considering the Refresh/Regen because I'm looking at what is best for bebuff.
My brd has been pretty gimp in terms of CHR+ or Skill+ for a very long time and I've never had much problems at all.. so wonder what the more advanced BRDs would suggest.
And of course change back to skill items for buffing.
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Also, what are some other options for using this on my BLM and WHM?
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