The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos

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The Parthenon: A Warrior's Kyklos
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-02 21:35:56
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all really. most of my internet access is through mobile and it's annoying to add it all up by scrolling down, easy to miss something. MAB would matter too for MAB weapon skills later.
 Bismarck.Firedemon
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2018-03-02 21:45:21
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Attack +70
Accuracy +36
MACC +36
Crit hit bonus 10%
Crit damage bonus 10%
Fencer TP bonus 230
WSD 3%

Phys attack under Berserk: +40
Phys attack under Warcry: +60
Phys accuracy under Aggressor: +20
Phys attack from double attack: +20
Crit hit rate under Blood Rage: +20%
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-02 21:46:16
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Ramuh.Austar said: »
also what's the cumulative total of gifts? pain in the butt to try to get on mobile?

WAR doesn't get MAB, the pertinent gifts are

WSD +3
Crit Damage +10
Crit Rate +10
Double Attack +10
Fencer +230

The JP categories do the following
Berserk: Base Attack +40 during Berserk
Aggressor: Accuracy +20 during Aggressor
Warcry: Base Attack +60 during Warcry
Retaliation: Retaliation proc rate +20
Blood Rage: Crit Rate +20% during Blood Rage
Double Attack: Base Attack +20 during DA
Restraint: Decreases charge time to full by 40%, treat as a 40% increase in potency per swing.


When I'm done doing these ambuscades for friends I'll switch to WAR and report Elvann stats.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-02 23:41:10
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Elvann

WAR/SAM
STR: 114
DEX: 101
VIT: 104
AGI: 096
INT: 086
MND: 097
CHR: 096

WAR/NIN
STR: 114
DEX: 102
VIT: 104
AGI: 099
INT: 087
MND: 094
CHR: 094
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-03 12:39:28
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can you get dancer sub too? curious how maintaining haste samba will affect individual dps for non dancer mains. although likely a boost for more than one damage dealer if one is maintaining
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-03 17:15:16
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Elvann

WAR/DNC

STR: 112
DEX: 101
VIT: 101
AGI: 099
INT: 085
MND: 096
CHR: 099
[+]
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-03 18:06:33
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thanks, probably knock a good amount out this weekend on it.
 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2018-03-03 19:01:47
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Will be interesting to see the results. I definitely want to compare stuff like Raetic or see the real differences between Chango Spam vs Montante Reso spam and such
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-03 19:22:29
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Initially it'll probably just be WS spam similar to my current SAM one.
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By Afania 2018-03-03 20:30:31
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Valefor.Yandaime said: »
Will be interesting to see the results. I definitely want to compare stuff like Raetic or see the real differences between Chango Spam vs Montante Reso spam and such



If you are comparing WS spamming with GA may as well compare ukon (With AM3 up and using Upheaval)v.s Mont.

I've been suspecting that Ukon AM3/Upheaval spam would beat Mont +1/reso in a 3 min fight. At least on spreadsheet it does, although the difference isn't huge. Would be interesting to see how it performs on Sim.

Mont +1/reso spam seems to be the strongest with 1 min warcry, as soon as warcry wears off after a min Ukon start to catch up with huge white damage boost from Bloodrage, and Upheaval avg with Ukon isn't bad at all. Ukon AM3 white damage really really benefits from BR and even after BR wears off Ukon should still continue to catch up until AM3 wears. It's avg DPS should beat Mont +1 right before AM3 wears.

If the fight is close to 1 min though, Mont +1 would win.

One of the biggest advantage of Upheaval is its fusion, so it SC very well with savage blade in standard 6 man pt with a COR. We tend to have tank and BRD or sometimes even WHM DDing too, so multi step SC isn't an option as it'll be DPS lose with that many people, and WS spamming is easier for everyone anyways.

Another GA advantage is quick access to fell cleave for content with adds without having to switch weapon, or quick access to break line WS.

Ukon also performs well against NM that has absorb TP move or Amnesia.

Since there are player testimonials saying spreadsheet overstates white damage there's a chance that Ukon may not catch up after 3 min after all. So Sim <yes please>!
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-03 23:12:03
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soon™
[+]
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-03 23:46:49
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Afania said: »
Ukon AM3 white damage really really benefits from BR and even after BR

Stop right there.

+40% Crit rate effects all weapons the exact same for melee damage, there is absolutely nothing special about Emp AM3 that would change what BR does. It's all just multipliers of each other.
 Asura.Arico
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By Asura.Arico 2018-03-03 23:48:36
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Where can I download the war spreadsheet? I'd be interested in trying some stuff out.
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By Afania 2018-03-04 00:06:41
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Afania said: »
Ukon AM3 white damage really really benefits from BR and even after BR

Stop right there.

+40% Crit rate effects all weapons the exact same for melee damage, there is absolutely nothing special about Emp AM3 that would change what BR does. It's all just multipliers of each other.


I double checked the spreadsheet number that I PMed to Atigev weeks ago when we discussed about Ukon's DPS potential.

Ukon/Upheaval(swapped to Yetshila +1 for TP) is about 6% ahead of Chango/Upheaval with BR, 5% ahead without BR.

So yeah, the gap isn't as huge as I thought it would be after double checking the number.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 07:12:16
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Afania said: »
So yeah, the gap isn't as huge as I thought it would be after double checking the number.

That's not what I said, and that spreedsheet is broke, I can confirm after having looked at it.

Critical hits are just +1.0 to pDiff and then multiplied by CHD. AM3 is just x3.0 damage. Because they are both multipliers there is zero uniqueness. A +x% increase for Mont would be the exact same +x% for Ukon and the same +x% for Chango. The only two weapons that would be "different" are Rag and Conq because they already have innate +crit potential so the effect of BR would be slightly diminished.

As for Ukon, you realize that Upheaval at 1K is really different then Upheaval around 2K. The WSD gear that lets Upheaval be competitive is only for the ~2K variation, meaning Chango. Using Ukon your going to get mediocre numbers on Upheaval, and the +50 STR is doing jack ***for you anyway since Upheaval is VIT based. Hell at 1K with a +50STR weapon Ukko's might even be the better option.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Upheaval

That's upheaval, it's 4 hits and first fTP scales like

1.0 / 3.5 / 6.5.

With moonshade it looks like

1.625 + 1.0 x 3/4

WSD isn't going to do ***for that, mostly pile on VIT and MA.

With Chango it changes, +750 TP Bonus looks like

2.875 + 1.0 x 3/4

Much better, but not enough to alter our sets just yet. At 2K TP, which is just one swing more for Chango

3.5 + 1.0 x 3/4

Now we start chunking all that WSD to jack the first hit up while stilling getting the bonus's from the other hits.

So we make two sets, first for under 2K effective TP, and the second for over 2K effective TP. With Chango the second is going to happen a lot more often then the first. Which is why Chango is the GAXE to use if your wanting to do damage with a Great Axe. Ukko's is mediocre and using non-Chango makes your Upheavals mediocre so your doing Mediocre WS damage on a job that's dominated by WS damage.
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By Afania 2018-03-04 08:09:26
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Asura.Saevel said: »
A +x% increase for Mont would be the exact same +x% for Ukon and the same +x% for Chango.

2h/ranged Empyreans often has white dmg/WS ratio closer to 50:50, none empyrean alternatives often screw toward WS a bit more.

So it makes sense that X% increase to AM3 white dmg ended up having more total increase than none empy weapon.

Say if weapon 1 has 1000 DPS, 500 are white dmg and 500 are WS dmg. Weapon 2 has 1000 DPS, 300 are white dmg and 700 are WS dmg. Then you increase white dmg for both weapons by same amount 30%.

Weapon 1 would ended up doing 650 white dmg(150 more) for total of 1150 and weapon 2 would ended up doing 390 white dmg (90 more) for total of 1090. Despite both weapons has same damage before 30% white dmg increase, weapon 1 ended up having higher total dmg after 30% white dmg increase being applied.




Asura.Saevel said: »
Afania said: »
So yeah, the gap isn't as huge as I thought it would be after double checking the number.

That's not what I said, and that spreedsheet is broke, I can confirm after having looked at it.

We'll see after sim is done then!

Part of the reason why I looked into ukon potential is because multiple ukon users testimonials and parses shows that this weapon is very very competitive v.s other weapons and by no means bad. So I do think this weapon is really really underrated based on testimonials.

I don't have parse data at hand ATM though, would be easier if someone else post theirs.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 08:26:38
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It's the same percentage, a percentage is a percentage.

Afania said: »
Part of the reason why I looked into ukon potential is because multiple ukon users testimonials and parses shows that this weapon is very very competitive v.s other weapons and by no means bad. So I do think this weapon is really really underrated based on testimonials.

I've gone against several people using Ukon's and they all fell behind. I've sat down and worked extensively trying to get their damage up and exploit as much as possible, and to no avail, Raetic easily beat them inside Escha and Monte+1 outside for raw WS spam. Chango won for making SC's. There are very good reasons why Ukon falls behind and it's not for lack of "the power of friendship". The best it can do is get kinda competitive with an easy to farm item.

If you think WAR is 50:50 or even 30:70 then your sucking ***, it's more like 10:90 or 15:85. Melee hits for 1300 (Great Axe at capped attack) don't do much when your chunking 30~40K WS's around. A COR boosted 4-hit looks like this.

30K WS
1300
1300
1300
30K WS
1300
1936 < Crit
1300
30K WS
1300
1300
1936 < Crit
30K WS
<Continue>

120K in WS damage vs 12972 in melee damage and the cycle continues depending on the length of the fight(s). WS's tend to tend the fight due to them being such a large quantity of burst damage.

And that's me being super conservative with the 30K figure. Empy AM3 just doubles your melee damage, so just multiply the melee damage by two and it's still no where near the WS damage, just 18% of the total damage. The reason SAM's Masamune works so well is that it's using the exact same WS (Tachi: Fudo) which is benefiting from the +50 STR. In this situation not only are you having to switch weapon types entirely and use a weaker WS, but also completely wasting the stat bonus from the Empy.

A side note that needs to be taken into consideration, Sekkanoki exists. Anytime a Ukon user will do 3K Ukko's at start for "free AM3", a GS or Chango use would pop Sekka and do two WS's. GS would just do double Resolution, Chango would do KJ -> Upheaval. Stop using 3K TP on Reso at start, especially if Warcry is present.

For Reso it looks like this at 3K TP.
Sekkanoki
1000TP Resolution -> 250TP return
2500TP Resolution (moonshade + 250 from previous WS).

That's about 60K damage dumped in the opening salvo.
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-03-04 08:56:03
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Is that 1300 with GS or GA... Def not Ukkon, if you only hit for 1300 with that you are doing something wrong.
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 08:59:00
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Is that 1300 with GS or GA... Def not Ukkon, if you only hit for 1300 with that you are doing something wrong.

That's a 336 DMG weapon with capped attack.

If you would of read the post you would of known that, and would of known that AM3 just doubles the average melee hit. But you didn't read it.

Asura.Saevel said: »
Empy AM3 just doubles your melee damage, so just multiply the melee damage by two and it's still no where near the WS damage, just 18% of the total damage.

336 * 3.75 = 1260 average non-crit damage.
336 +20 (fSTR) = 356 * 3.75 = 1335 average non-crit damage.

I split the difference because your not TPing in heavy STR and targets VIT is unknown. Not much of a difference anyway.

For crits it's

336 * 4.75 * 1.18 = 1883 average crit
356 * 4.75 * 1.18 = 1995 average crit

Just double it to effect Empy AM3 averages.

See this is the big issue, you guys are guessing with your eyeballs. You see occasional big numbers and fail to see the smaller number in-between those big numbers. The human brain is notoriously bad at averages and likes to just take the biggest number as the "average". Like how Afia was trying to gear for crit damage to see bigger numbers, and that nonsense claim of 50:50.
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-03-04 09:10:19
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Oh look there is the "If you would have read" well I did read that wall of text with the drastically reduced white numbers. I forgot there was a reason I stopped posting here.
[+]
 Sylph.Atigevomega
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By Sylph.Atigevomega 2018-03-04 09:15:11
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Yeah I am done.. Im guessing... yup thats it.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 09:18:46
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Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Yeah I am done.. Im guessing... yup thats it.


Goodbye, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Remember everyone, eyeballs are the best way to know your average damage. Or better yet they have a *special* version of the weapon that changes the damage formula and lets them deal damage with the power of friendship.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Physical_Damage

Physical Damage = Base Damage * pDIF

Base Damage = Weapon Damage + fSTR

pDiff = 3.75 non crit, 4.75 crit prior to the Random function. The random function as the same probability of giving a bonus as giving a penalty.

pDiff max = wRatio + 0.375
pDiff min = wRatio - 0.375
Average modification = 0
Average pDiff = 3.75, 4.75 for crits
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2018-03-04 09:30:25
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So, just to be clear...

1000 x 1.5 = 1500

2000 × 1.5 = 3000

Same percentage increase to the specific actions, but the overall increase is higher. Because thats how multipliers work. And stacking them is fantastic.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 09:50:24
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Sylph.Atigevomega said: »
Yeah I am done.. Im guessing... yup thats it.


Goodbye, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Remember everyone, eyeballs are the best way to know your average damage. Or better yet they have a *special* version of the weapon that changes the damage formula and lets them deal damage with the power of friendship.

https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Physical_Damage

Physical Damage = Base Damage * pDIF

Base Damage = Weapon Damage + fSTR

pDiff = 3.75 non crit, 4.75 crit prior to the Random function. The random function as the same probability of giving a bonus as giving a penalty.

pDiff max = wRatio + 0.375
pDiff min = wRatio - 0.375
Average modification = 0
Average pDiff = 3.75, 4.75 for crits
the last little bit is incorrect. you get a ratio from attack / defense, and the pdif min and max is part of the first random multiplier. if you're capped attack, which is 4.125x mob's defense, then you can only roll 3.75 for non crits. After that you have a second random multiplier between 1 and 1.05
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 10:10:43
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I'm only talking averages. You have the same probability to roll high pdiffmax as to roll low pDiffmax thus average is 0. The 1.05 is just tacked on so 1.025 average? Not sure on the distribution of that part.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2018-03-04 10:14:21
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at capped attack (4.125x mob defense) for 2H you're looking at DMG * 3.75 * 1.025(average), but if you had like a ratio of 3x mob's defense:

uniform(2.625, 3.375) which is a random value between those two, then from there you have the uniform(1, 1.05) value
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-03-04 10:25:25
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Asura.Saevel said: »
I'm only talking averages. You have the same probability to roll high pdiffmax as to roll low pDiffmax thus average is 0. The 1.05 is just tacked on so 1.025 average? Not sure on the distribution of that part.
At capped 2H attack, pdif max and pdif min are exactly the same, 3.75, to there is no random factor before the 1-1.05 modifier afterwards. Thus, the entire range is the tiny 3.75-3.9375.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2018-03-04 10:35:31
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I'm assuming 9999 attack vs 1 defense monster for "capped attack". So again 3.75 average and then 1.025 tacked on.

You've been agreeing with me so far.

I was illustrating the radical difference between melee and WS damage.
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By Asura.Geriond 2018-03-04 10:39:05
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From your posts, you seem to think that 3.75 is an average (in a meaningful way), and not just exactly 3.75 for every single hit.

If that's not what you think, then some clarification would be appreciated.
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By Afania 2018-03-04 11:25:24
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Asura.Saevel said: »
and that nonsense claim of 50:50.

I said "closer" to 50:50 which means it has higher white dmg ratio, it does not mean it's exactly 50:50.

Realistically, we can't hit exactly 3 times right before every single WS due to multi attack proc, white dmg would weight a bit more.

So it's probably more like this, using numbers listed above 1335 none crit and 1995 crit:
1335
4005 (OAT proc)
1995(MA proc)
5985 (crit OAT proc)
WS
1335
4005
1995 (MA proc)
1335
5985
WS

Not like this:
1335
1335
1335
WS
1335
1995
1335
WS

I also did not suggest one weapon is definitely better than another, only said Ukon may be a competitive choice if you factor white dmg and fusion SC from Upheaval.
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