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christians: we arent trying to condemn anyone
 Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:21:55
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The Bible specifically tells me that I cannot judge and condemn. I can tell people it's wrong if I want, but I cannot tell them what will happen to them. For the record, homosexuality doesn't "bother" me, so I never bother them or tell them they are wrong.
You're picking and choosing here. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because the sins were in excess. What were the sins you ask? I'm sure you know where this is going.
The bible has passages that say one thing and then a passage that says another. Why do you think people biblically justify acts of cruelty and discrimination against homosexuals? God unleashed his wrath and he's the divine image of all powerful good - why wouldn't I want to be more like him? There are plenty of passages that view homosexuality as a perversion of nature and thus the violence springs forth in men fueled by biblical passages. We've seen this happen before with the last great US shitstorm - slavery.
You cannot call someone who does these things as acting outside the bounds of Christianity because they're doing exactly what the text instructs and omitting the parts that speaking against passing judgement.
Quote: Once again, judgement is left for Him and the Bible itself says that there is only one unforgivable sin, and it isn't homosexuality. Heaven may very well be in their future, who knows?
The biblical text says otherwise.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote: However, as a Christian who understands the difference between legal and religious marriage, and understands why legal marriage should be an option for all in a free country that preaches equality, it is the militant atheists and the militant members of the LGBT community that attack me for my belief and assume I live for no other reason than to murder homosexuals, that I sit at home and drink a cup of coffee and play FFXI rather than offer any support to their cause.
I don't believe that all theists attack people and I'm willing to be allies of people willing to have their beliefs and keep it out of the public sphere like government, school and our legal system but trying to declare that violent Christians are somehow not in line with the Bible is just wrong.
This is the same issue that currently plagues Islamic teaching as you're going to have people that interpret the hardline teachings and commit atrocities and you're going to have moderate people who realize we're in the 21st century and we need to get along with eachother.
You realize Sodom and Gomorrah is in the Old Testament, right? Atheists should really try to understand why there is an Old and New Testament.
I am not going to be bothered to explain it here again when no one is going to listen.
Not all atheists and homosexuals are militant or lash out at religious people, but just like our bad apples that dominate your opinions, the news and outlook of most atheists, the same is done because of your bad apples. So you're justifying perpetuating unjust generalizations on the fact that you are also generalized/stereotyped? I mean I kinda jumped in this midway, so I could very well be wrong, but as someone just joining, I'm kinda getting that vibe..
Also, religious people tend to view the Bible as fluid.. I've gotten into plenty of arguments with Christians over the years (I was even a Christian at one point, in fact, it's the reason I no longer am) They pick out bits and pieces to fit their current argument or story, and they transition freely from being 'actual events' to 'metaphorical' at will.. This is the reason I really stopped trying to argue with them. It's nearly impossible to pin them in a corner so to speak.. One minute they will justify their argument with a passage, when the only way it makes sense, is if it were meant to be literal, and then when you push them further, all the sudden, that passage is no longer literal, it's metaphorical.. That back tracking usually starts with lines such as "No you misunderstood what I meant was.." or "Well the Bible tells us XXX but..."
Christians need to pick something for once.. You can't claim a passage is literal, then turn around say it's metaphorical just because your entire argument falls to ***.
The same is true with old vs new.. It fluidly flows from being relevant to irrelevant.. Pick one.. Either Jesus' death rendered the old testament obsolete, or what's written in it is still relevant and therefore, part of your belief. Start sacrificing goats and owning slaves or cut your Bible in half and throw the old away.
This is a world of grey and not one of black and white and therefore nothing has to be 100% left or right. Jesus tells us the laws are still relevant. That is ALL he tells us. Which laws?
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
The OT was written for the Israelites, God's chosen people. The New Testament is for the Christians, God's favored people. To continuously throw the acts of the Israelites, which you would all refer to as the Jewish faith, in the face of Christians, is absurd and comical at best.
 Leviathan.Chaosx
Server: Leviathan
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Posts: 20284
By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 02:22:42
One of the things I don't get is that it seems like people truly believe that religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I don't even understand how someone can come to that conclusion. If everyone was an Atheist would that bring world peace or something? It possibly could.
By slipispsycho 2012-01-16 02:22:52
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »The Bible specifically tells me that I cannot judge and condemn. I can tell people it's wrong if I want, but I cannot tell them what will happen to them. For the record, homosexuality doesn't "bother" me, so I never bother them or tell them they are wrong.
You're picking and choosing here. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because the sins were in excess. What were the sins you ask? I'm sure you know where this is going.
The bible has passages that say one thing and then a passage that says another. Why do you think people biblically justify acts of cruelty and discrimination against homosexuals? God unleashed his wrath and he's the divine image of all powerful good - why wouldn't I want to be more like him? There are plenty of passages that view homosexuality as a perversion of nature and thus the violence springs forth in men fueled by biblical passages. We've seen this happen before with the last great US shitstorm - slavery.
You cannot call someone who does these things as acting outside the bounds of Christianity because they're doing exactly what the text instructs and omitting the parts that speaking against passing judgement.
Quote: Once again, judgement is left for Him and the Bible itself says that there is only one unforgivable sin, and it isn't homosexuality. Heaven may very well be in their future, who knows?
The biblical text says otherwise.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote: However, as a Christian who understands the difference between legal and religious marriage, and understands why legal marriage should be an option for all in a free country that preaches equality, it is the militant atheists and the militant members of the LGBT community that attack me for my belief and assume I live for no other reason than to murder homosexuals, that I sit at home and drink a cup of coffee and play FFXI rather than offer any support to their cause.
I don't believe that all theists attack people and I'm willing to be allies of people willing to have their beliefs and keep it out of the public sphere like government, school and our legal system but trying to declare that violent Christians are somehow not in line with the Bible is just wrong.
This is the same issue that currently plagues Islamic teaching as you're going to have people that interpret the hardline teachings and commit atrocities and you're going to have moderate people who realize we're in the 21st century and we need to get along with eachother.
You realize Sodom and Gomorrah is in the Old Testament, right? Atheists should really try to understand why there is an Old and New Testament.
I am not going to be bothered to explain it here again when no one is going to listen.
Not all atheists and homosexuals are militant or lash out at religious people, but just like our bad apples that dominate your opinions, the news and outlook of most atheists, the same is done because of your bad apples. So you're justifying perpetuating unjust generalizations on the fact that you are also generalized/stereotyped? I mean I kinda jumped in this midway, so I could very well be wrong, but as someone just joining, I'm kinda getting that vibe..
Also, religious people tend to view the Bible as fluid.. I've gotten into plenty of arguments with Christians over the years (I was even a Christian at one point, in fact, it's the reason I no longer am) They pick out bits and pieces to fit their current argument or story, and they transition freely from being 'actual events' to 'metaphorical' at will.. This is the reason I really stopped trying to argue with them. It's nearly impossible to pin them in a corner so to speak.. One minute they will justify their argument with a passage, when the only way it makes sense, is if it were meant to be literal, and then when you push them further, all the sudden, that passage is no longer literal, it's metaphorical.. That back tracking usually starts with lines such as "No you misunderstood what I meant was.." or "Well the Bible tells us XXX but..."
Christians need to pick something for once.. You can't claim a passage is literal, then turn around say it's metaphorical just because your entire argument falls to ***.
The same is true with old vs new.. It fluidly flows from being relevant to irrelevant.. Pick one.. Either Jesus' death rendered the old testament obsolete, or what's written in it is still relevant and therefore, part of your belief. Start sacrificing goats and owning slaves or cut your Bible in half and throw the old away.
This is a world of grey and not one of black and white and therefore nothing has to be 100% left or right. Jesus tells us the laws are still relevant. That is ALL he tells us. So they're still relevant, but you just get to pick and choose which are? Did Jesus tell you which? Oh, no I forgot, he didn't..
So as I said, either disregard it all, or get out there taking slaves and sacrificing animals.. I mean, the Bible is the word, and you'll go to hell if you don't follow it.. Why risk it? You don't actually know what is still relevant, right?
Well unless you want to admit you only follow what think or feel is important/relevant and are just picking out the parts you want to.. That wouldn't make you very Christian though.. That would make you someone who justifies their behavior through religion.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 02:24:45
One of the things I don't get is that it seems like people truly believe that religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I don't even understand how someone can come to that conclusion. If everyone was an Atheist would that bring world peace or something? It possibly could. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. I read about crimes being committed every day that have nothing to do with theology. Or I forgot that gang violence and people killing their children and the like are all based off their theological values.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 02:25:26
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name one of these laws and let's go from there.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:25:39
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »No one is washing away the OT. The word testament, in the Bible, is used in the same context as covenant. Therefore the OT is no longer the bounding covenant between God and His people. It was written for the Israelites and adapted for the gentiles of that time. The punishments ordered out by God was because there was no forgiveness for sin at the time, only the blood of his son could forgive all our sins and not the blood of animals that was offered during those times. Therefore the atrocities you allude to were God's actual judgement.
In the NT, the only thing Jesus says is that we must follow the same laws. For this example, homosexuality, is still not allowed. He never once instructs us to carry out the sentence of that crime, but he does on multiple occasions let us know that only God may make those judgments.
So it was fine for God to basically vaporize people on a whim? Wipe out the whole planet with the flood? Require animals for blood sacrifice? Ordering Moses to wipe out cities of people? Pretty much some morally bankrupt things. The fact I'm trying to get at is that the OT gives us a peek into the behavior of God yet we're supposed to believe that because that contract is over he isn't the same timeless God?
What about that whole thing about implicating the Jews in the death of Jesus and the tsunami of deaths that act would cause as it rippled through history up till our present day?
I may be a mere protozoan in the grand scale of the universe but my feeble mind is perplexed at this type of behavior. I mean Christianity is supposed to be a departure from the Greco-Roman Gods who basically toyed with the lives of men yet the OT shows some overlap.
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2012-01-16 02:27:02
Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:27:32
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 02:27:39
One of the things I don't get is that it seems like people truly believe that religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I don't even understand how someone can come to that conclusion. If everyone was an Atheist would that bring world peace or something? It possibly could. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. I read about crimes being committed every day that have nothing to do with theology. Or I forgot that gang violence and people killing their children and the like are all based off their theological values. Not everyday crimes, but wars, yes.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2012-01-16 02:28:45
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
God works in mysterious ways. Cute.
I can tell my parents what is right and wrong. I don't give a *** if God is real. If he did those things, I would not worship him. Genocide is not okay. Rape, murder, asking people to murder their children is not okay. I would spit at such a god.
That's not okay. You're just falling back on what you were told, rather than face the possibility that your god is not Great.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-16 02:28:54
You and I can feel that way now because of how we are conditioned to live and treat everyone. During those times, neither you and I would truly know how we would feel and react to those events, nor could we ever understand why they existed unless we were there.
God is timeless.
God is superior to me in every way.
God can't figure out that slavery is morally wrong?
Cmon, that makes no sense and makes a mockery of God. It's a despicable human practice that any divine being should thoughtlessly declare as among the worst thing you could do to another human being. God saw fit to state homosexuality is wrong and that carries to the present day yet just imagine how much better our world would have been without slavery being sanctioned.
I know many play it down as being some sort of indentured servitude as opposed to the slave trade of more recent times but for it to be in any holy text is just astounding.
Owning another human being. Owning them and beating them. Stop and let that idea soak in. Countless people were plowed into servitude because of that one little bit of the OT, countless peoples put into a spiral of suffering for what? It's one of those things that really takes my breath away.
Yes, we humans are products of our time period but for this practice to have made the divine cut in the OT was one of the most egregious points for me in doing some brief biblical study. It's pretty much like saying murder or stealing is ok.
Only humans could OK something as barbaric as slavery.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 02:29:05
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun. I may be misunderstanding here and it may seem like I'm only picking one thing out... but are you implying that educating people would eliminate the faith that people have?
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 02:29:20
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. So even though homosexuality is forbidden, now you can be forgiven of this sin.
Is that what you're saying?
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:30:28
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. So even though homosexuality is forbidden, now you can be forgiven of this sin.
Is that what you're saying?
The possibility of forgiveness is there, yes.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 02:31:28
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »No one is washing away the OT. The word testament, in the Bible, is used in the same context as covenant. Therefore the OT is no longer the bounding covenant between God and His people. It was written for the Israelites and adapted for the gentiles of that time. The punishments ordered out by God was because there was no forgiveness for sin at the time, only the blood of his son could forgive all our sins and not the blood of animals that was offered during those times. Therefore the atrocities you allude to were God's actual judgement.
In the NT, the only thing Jesus says is that we must follow the same laws. For this example, homosexuality, is still not allowed. He never once instructs us to carry out the sentence of that crime, but he does on multiple occasions let us know that only God may make those judgments.
So it was fine for God to basically vaporize people on a whim? Wipe out the whole planet with the flood? Require animals for blood sacrifice? Ordering Moses to wipe out cities of people? Pretty much some morally bankrupt things. The fact I'm trying to get at is that the OT gives us a peek into the behavior of God yet we're supposed to believe that because that contract is over he isn't the same timeless God?
What about that whole thing about implicating the Jews in the death of Jesus and the tsunami of deaths that act would cause as it rippled through history up till our present day?
I may be a mere protozoan in the grand scale of the universe but my feeble mind is perplexed at this type of behavior. I mean Christianity is supposed to be a departure from the Greco-Roman Gods who basically toyed with the lives of men yet the OT shows some overlap.
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
I call *** on the bolded when it comes to your god.
as for earlier: no laws also dictate the punishment, a punishment cannot be changed without the law changing.
As for the old testament vs the new:
god never changes, nor does his punishments then.
you people and your ridiculous illogical beliefs make me sad...
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:31:39
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
God works in mysterious ways. Cute.
I can tell my parents what is right and wrong. I don't give a *** if God is real. If he did those things, I would not worship him. Genocide is not okay. Rape, murder, asking people to murder their children is not okay. I would spit at such a god.
That's not okay. You're just falling back on what you were told, rather than face the possibility that your god is not Great.
And what tells you that those are right and wrong? Society? Your own personal belief?
Anything can be right or wrong under that.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 02:32:04
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. So even though homosexuality is forbidden, now you can be forgiven of this sin.
Is that what you're saying?
The possibility of forgiveness is there, yes. So the gay community must ask for forgiveness of their sin of homosexuality in order to be considered for heaven?
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 02:32:51
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun. I may be misunderstanding here and it may seem like I'm only picking one thing out... but are you implying that educating people would eliminate the faith that people have?
I would argue that proportionally critical thinking skills increase the chances you will discard your worthless faith.
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2012-01-16 02:32:52
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun. I may be misunderstanding here and it may seem like I'm only picking one thing out... but are you implying that educating people would eliminate the faith that people have?
As education levels increase, faith decreases. That's an undeniable, verifiable trend. We're not talking USA high school standards, we're more talking --oh, Twitter just emailed me, last post--a better education from k->grad school.
When I say proper education, I mean the whole shebang. Critical thinking skills, more challenging reading, logic classes, all the good stuff. Trend is clearly seen that education leads to secularism.
The more educated a country is, the higher they score in happiness indexes and the lower the rate of crime is. That's because they also tend to be more economically stable.
Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Germany, etc.
[+]
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:33:00
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »No one is washing away the OT. The word testament, in the Bible, is used in the same context as covenant. Therefore the OT is no longer the bounding covenant between God and His people. It was written for the Israelites and adapted for the gentiles of that time. The punishments ordered out by God was because there was no forgiveness for sin at the time, only the blood of his son could forgive all our sins and not the blood of animals that was offered during those times. Therefore the atrocities you allude to were God's actual judgement.
In the NT, the only thing Jesus says is that we must follow the same laws. For this example, homosexuality, is still not allowed. He never once instructs us to carry out the sentence of that crime, but he does on multiple occasions let us know that only God may make those judgments.
So it was fine for God to basically vaporize people on a whim? Wipe out the whole planet with the flood? Require animals for blood sacrifice? Ordering Moses to wipe out cities of people? Pretty much some morally bankrupt things. The fact I'm trying to get at is that the OT gives us a peek into the behavior of God yet we're supposed to believe that because that contract is over he isn't the same timeless God?
What about that whole thing about implicating the Jews in the death of Jesus and the tsunami of deaths that act would cause as it rippled through history up till our present day?
I may be a mere protozoan in the grand scale of the universe but my feeble mind is perplexed at this type of behavior. I mean Christianity is supposed to be a departure from the Greco-Roman Gods who basically toyed with the lives of men yet the OT shows some overlap.
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
I call *** on the bolded when it comes to your god.
as for earlier: no laws also dictate the punishment, a punishment cannot be changed without the law changing.
As for the old testament vs the new:
god never changes, nor does his punishments then.
you people and your ridiculous illogical beliefs make me sad...
And you call me illogical. Murder is still against the law, and capital punishment has been eliminated and reestablished in many states multiple times without ever changing the fact that murder is against the law.
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By Bismarck.Ruizutatakau 2012-01-16 02:33:25
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. Do you want all *** to just spontaneously combust and burn in the eternal hellfires of damnation cause when is it not homosexuality that has to used to make a point?
[+]
Lakshmi.Flavin
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Posts: 18466
By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 02:34:23
One of the things I don't get is that it seems like people truly believe that religion is the cause of all the world's problems. I don't even understand how someone can come to that conclusion. If everyone was an Atheist would that bring world peace or something? It possibly could. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. I read about crimes being committed every day that have nothing to do with theology. Or I forgot that gang violence and people killing their children and the like are all based off their theological values. Not everyday crimes, but wars, yes. I'd have to disagree with you there too. Would it prevent some armed action? Probably. Would it eliminate wars all together? Not a chance. I don't think America has ever waged a war for religion. Protecting our interests and maybe even to gain something yea. I could be wrong though on that. I can't say that I know the exact reason for every war that we have waged but I don't remember being taught that it was about religion.
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By Ramuh.Sagittario 2012-01-16 02:34:59
Guys you can't argue with Evandis. Logic does not apply to anything he says. You may aswell argue with a plate of jello.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 02:35:14
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »No one is washing away the OT. The word testament, in the Bible, is used in the same context as covenant. Therefore the OT is no longer the bounding covenant between God and His people. It was written for the Israelites and adapted for the gentiles of that time. The punishments ordered out by God was because there was no forgiveness for sin at the time, only the blood of his son could forgive all our sins and not the blood of animals that was offered during those times. Therefore the atrocities you allude to were God's actual judgement.
In the NT, the only thing Jesus says is that we must follow the same laws. For this example, homosexuality, is still not allowed. He never once instructs us to carry out the sentence of that crime, but he does on multiple occasions let us know that only God may make those judgments.
So it was fine for God to basically vaporize people on a whim? Wipe out the whole planet with the flood? Require animals for blood sacrifice? Ordering Moses to wipe out cities of people? Pretty much some morally bankrupt things. The fact I'm trying to get at is that the OT gives us a peek into the behavior of God yet we're supposed to believe that because that contract is over he isn't the same timeless God?
What about that whole thing about implicating the Jews in the death of Jesus and the tsunami of deaths that act would cause as it rippled through history up till our present day?
I may be a mere protozoan in the grand scale of the universe but my feeble mind is perplexed at this type of behavior. I mean Christianity is supposed to be a departure from the Greco-Roman Gods who basically toyed with the lives of men yet the OT shows some overlap.
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
I call *** on the bolded when it comes to your god.
as for earlier: no laws also dictate the punishment, a punishment cannot be changed without the law changing.
As for the old testament vs the new:
god never changes, nor does his punishments then.
you people and your ridiculous illogical beliefs make me sad...
And you call me illogical. Murder is still against the law, and capital punishment has been eliminated and reestablished in many states multiple times without ever changing the fact that murder is against the law.
no but the laws regarding the punishment have changed, you misunderstand or fail to recognize which isn't too far fetched.
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 02:35:16
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun. I may be misunderstanding here and it may seem like I'm only picking one thing out... but are you implying that educating people would eliminate the faith that people have?
I would argue that proportionally critical thinking skills increase the chances you will discard your worthless faith. See guys, just because you're an Atheist it doesn't make you a particularly nice or respectful person lol.
[+]
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xueye 2012-01-16 02:35:43
And what tells you that those are right and wrong? Society? Your own personal belief?
Anything can be right or wrong under that.
The general consensus of morality derived from discussion, debate, and basic reason. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to point out reasons as to why genocide is wrong.
I believe in a morality that is 'intelligently designed', as Dawkins once joked. I believe morality, right, wrong, the whole thing can be figured out by humans. Watch some Sam Harris, he goes over this.
I will be better qualified to answer this in full once I finish "The Moral Landscape". But it doesn't take God to tell me that wiping out the Human race because he designed it poorly is *** wrong.
[+]
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:36:05
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. So even though homosexuality is forbidden, now you can be forgiven of this sin.
Is that what you're saying?
The possibility of forgiveness is there, yes. So the gay community must ask for forgiveness of their sin of homosexuality in order to be considered for heaven?
Depending on if you believe that most people are going to Heaven, that would be one way of looking at it. The Bible isn't 100% clear cut here.
It states that only 144,000 of the most righteous will enter Heaven and that the meek will inherit the earth. There are prayers that allude to God's Kingdom coming to Earth.
Without getting too in detail, my personal belief is that when we die we will go into an unconscious slumber and after the end times have been fulfilled, those who are truly righteous and good in their heart will be allowed to return to Earth and perfection before the final tribulation, when God releases the devil once more to tempt us in our perfect state.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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Posts: 463
By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:38:03
Bismarck.Ruizutatakau said: »
All of them. What is expected of you to be considered worthy has not changed. The only thing that has changed is that sin can now be forgiven and man may not carry out judgement.
Give me a specific example here. Name of these laws and let's go from there.
Let's pick the most relevant one, because every time we are in these threads I have to contend with 10 people messaging me and then deciding they have confused me or won against me somehow because I either miss responding to them or choose the most relevant post to respond to.
Homosexuality, he forbids it. Let's start with that one. Do you want all *** to just spontaneously combust and burn in the eternal hellfires of damnation cause when is it not homosexuality that has to used to make a point?
Sorry you fail at reading, when I addressed this already. To save myself the trouble, here is the TLDR version:
No.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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Posts: 463
By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 02:39:20
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »No one is washing away the OT. The word testament, in the Bible, is used in the same context as covenant. Therefore the OT is no longer the bounding covenant between God and His people. It was written for the Israelites and adapted for the gentiles of that time. The punishments ordered out by God was because there was no forgiveness for sin at the time, only the blood of his son could forgive all our sins and not the blood of animals that was offered during those times. Therefore the atrocities you allude to were God's actual judgement.
In the NT, the only thing Jesus says is that we must follow the same laws. For this example, homosexuality, is still not allowed. He never once instructs us to carry out the sentence of that crime, but he does on multiple occasions let us know that only God may make those judgments.
So it was fine for God to basically vaporize people on a whim? Wipe out the whole planet with the flood? Require animals for blood sacrifice? Ordering Moses to wipe out cities of people? Pretty much some morally bankrupt things. The fact I'm trying to get at is that the OT gives us a peek into the behavior of God yet we're supposed to believe that because that contract is over he isn't the same timeless God?
What about that whole thing about implicating the Jews in the death of Jesus and the tsunami of deaths that act would cause as it rippled through history up till our present day?
I may be a mere protozoan in the grand scale of the universe but my feeble mind is perplexed at this type of behavior. I mean Christianity is supposed to be a departure from the Greco-Roman Gods who basically toyed with the lives of men yet the OT shows some overlap.
God doesn't work on our terms, He is our Creator and Master, we are not His. You can object to his actions, but really you cannot tell the one who created you what is right or wrong, He created all the rules you are bound by, therefore what he does is righteous. You choose not to belief, that's fine, but if in the end I end up being right about his existence, you can be as incredulous to it all being true if you want, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really understand what you are asking as far as the Jews and the tsunami's of death.
I call *** on the bolded when it comes to your god.
as for earlier: no laws also dictate the punishment, a punishment cannot be changed without the law changing.
As for the old testament vs the new:
god never changes, nor does his punishments then.
you people and your ridiculous illogical beliefs make me sad...
And you call me illogical. Murder is still against the law, and capital punishment has been eliminated and reestablished in many states multiple times without ever changing the fact that murder is against the law.
no but the laws regarding the punishment have changed, you misunderstand or fail to recognize which isn't too far fetched.
The laws regarding the punishment...do you even understand law?
Since you are judging it on man's understanding of law, let me remind you that this "law regarding punishments" seems to manage to give every single person a different sentence for the same crime.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 9001
By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 02:39:22
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »Oh, and two last things while I wait for Twitter to validate my new account. Spath, I *** love you.
Flavin, it would eliminate a number of social problems, but the general view (from what I've seen, partaking in a community of 400,00 atheists) is currently shifting to admit that religion won't end all problems. Many problems have to be eliminated by education and economics; these are two things, however, that would also eliminate religion. You can't jump the gun. I may be misunderstanding here and it may seem like I'm only picking one thing out... but are you implying that educating people would eliminate the faith that people have?
I would argue that proportionally critical thinking skills increase the chances you will discard your worthless faith. See guys, just because you're an Atheist it doesn't make you a particularly nice or respectful person lol.
I see no reason to be nice or respectful to such a disgusting thing as religion.
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