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christians: we arent trying to condemn anyone
 Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 03:42:01
Quetzalcoatl.Xueye said: »All good, all powerful being.
Creates sin.
Why?
Go. Can't you liken it to a parent/child scenario? I know you don't but believe for a second that god created man. A father and a mother get together and create a child. They try to guide that child to a path that they feel is right for the benefit of his/her life. They lay down rules and deal out punishments when those rules are broken. As they grow you hope you have taught them well enough to function and prosper. We all distance ourselves from that parent/child relationship and live according to our own free will. We are now driven by free will. Our parents hope that the lessons they taught us stick with them and aide them but in the end we make our own choices and live as we choose.
No matter who it is people make rules, deem what is bad/punishable and act against those that infringe against those rules and enforce punishment when they do.
So... we're a cosmic sandbox game that God left running?
Although, doesn't that answer "why does god ALLOW sin" rather than why did he make sin? Free will.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:42:06
As much as I disagree with pretty much everything Evandis said and I kind of truthfully think he's a douche, I think you guys are taking it a bit far on the homosexuality thing.
If he considers it a sin, leave him be. He's not spewing hatred or nonsense about how he wants to save their confused soul from hell. Yes his view is a bit bigoted in my opinion, but believe it or not his opinion is one a lot of people have, but that does not necessarily stop them from being friends with someone who is gay or actually hate and discriminate against them.
How am I a bigot. I am not intolerant to homosexuals. I wish no ill will on them, I do not try to prevent them from living their lives as they wish. I do not go around calling them mean slurs. Someone is not a bigot because they disagree with homosexuality. Someone is a bigot when they maliciously and purposefully attempt to harm a person who engages in this activity.
First of all, I was trying to somewhat defend your position, second of all, according to my home boy d slice, alternatively known as the dictionary:
big·ot
noun
a person who is intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
That follows in line with me saying your views are somewhat bigoted. You too Jet!
that's a rather vague definition and it doesn't really count.
So you're saying somebody who is intolerant of racism is a bigot?
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2012-01-16 03:42:32
Sinception: God is on the next level.
[+]
 Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 03:44:06
You have to give me a few minutes, I'm still taking in that last statement.
I don't understand what is so difficult to take in about disagreeing with homosexuality but not hating homosexuals.
I believe it is against nature, science is actually in my favor on that one. I also cannot understand how a man can be attracted to another man that way and I can openly admit that I never will and shouldn't bother trying, since I will never be attracted to another man. The greatest fallacy here is a heterosexual expecting a homosexual to understand something they cannot, and vice versa.
Outside of homosexuality, they all have feelings, goals, ambitions, desires. They work jobs and pay taxes. They generally are nice people. Why do I have to hate the person, because I disagree with an act that I am not even taking part in anyway? The problem is you condemn homosexuality and yet condone homosexuals in the same breath.
I don't condemn. Show me where I condemn. Show me where I said they were guaranteed a trip to hell for this. Since you cannot, I will point to you where I blatantly said that I believe homosexuals have a chance at forgiveness.
By saying saying that homosexuals must be forgiven of their sin of homosexuality in order to be considered for heaven.
That translate to homosexuality is a sin.
Right, you did say that god forbids it right?
I'll ask you again, Is homosexuality a sin?
Yes, homosexuality is a sin.
However, you make it sound like homosexuals are given a raw deal in having to be forgiven for the sin of homosexuality.
I have to be forgiven for the sin of premarital sex. I have to be forgiven for the sin of having a child out of wedlock.
God forbids all that too and just like a homosexual, I have the possibility of being forgiven.
You make it sound like homosexuality is the only thing God calls a sin and that they are specifically being singled out with the word sin. They are not.
Outside of blasphemy, all sins can be forgiven, all sins are on the same level. We are all sinners, no matter what Westboro may believe. If you recall in the beginning we are starting with one law at a time, remember?
Saying homosexuality is a sin, is in fact condemning it.
Uh, false. Sin can be forgiven. Ok I see where the problem is.
Labeling something as a sin, is not condemning it?
If so then why would it need to be forgiven in the first place?
I feel like you are just mincing words here.
Either which way, the point you are going around, is I have not stated, nor do I believe that homosexuality is unforgivable and automatically eliminates all hope that a person can enter Heaven. For all I know, I won't enter because of my sins, numerous as some may be, could be viewed by God as more egregious.
God forbids it, that's why you have to apologize to him. If you choose not to believe in God, then you shouldn't be worried about it. It's almost like you would rather all religious people walk around and tell you that you are going to burn in hell, because it would make you feel right 100% of the time. No I'm really trying to get to the bottom of this.
A sin is not something that's being condemned, rather it's something that god forbids.
When you die or w/e you have to apologize for those sins if you want to be considered into heaven.
Is that correct?
I don't know, I haven't died yet. I don't know what the actual decorum will be. Will you actually have to say I am sorry, or will he judge you by your deeds overall and what he reads in your heart?
Sin can be forgiven, it doesn't really give us the stipulation on what the exact requirements for forgiveness are. I would imagine in this circumstance that it would be truly repentant for sinning and not just saying it for a free pass. Ok let's try this from a different angle...
god has decided what is a sin, is that what your belief is?
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 03:44:52
big·ot
noun \ˈbi-gət\
Definition of BIGOT
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
"A man with a hump-backed uncle mustn't make fun of another man's cross-eyed aunt”. Mark Twain
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 03:45:24
anyway, off to bed for me. I'll check back in the morning to see if we can keep a some-what civil exchange of ideas going, either that or the thread will be 30 pages longer defeating the purpose of return and/or it will have been nuked which is what I'm guessing is more likely :3
night. Nuked most likely, but oh well... later
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 03:45:42
If you believe in religion then you know that all life is based off "first sin" and as such we are all byproducts of this which in turn means: we are all sins of a sin.
We are born sinners. We are born with imperfections. God knows this. I can't put words in His mouth, but you claim homosexuality isn't a choice, it is how you were born. Fine, I am not going to argue that, I can't prove you right or wrong, so since a homosexual has more experience at living that life, I will believe that they did not choose these feelings.
Perhaps these feelings are a byproduct of that imperfection in us. That homosexuality is a byproduct of that original sin. God may hold you less accountable in that regards. I don't know for sure. I just know that all sins, outside of blasphemy, can be forgiven and that is why you will never see me uttering the despicable words "you will burn in hell for being a homosexual." In fact, if you find a "Christian" who says that, point them in my direction, so I too can give them a hard time.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:46:23
you didn't answer my question, you avoided it.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:46:38
If you believe in religion then you know that all life is based off "first sin" and as such we are all byproducts of this which in turn means: we are all sins of a sin.
We are born sinners. We are born with imperfections. God knows this. I can't put words in His mouth, but you claim homosexuality isn't a choice, it is how you were born. Fine, I am not going to argue that, I can't prove you right or wrong, so since a homosexual has more experience at living that life, I will believe that they did not choose these feelings.
Perhaps these feelings are a byproduct of that imperfection in us. That homosexuality is a byproduct of that original sin. God may hold you less accountable in that regards. I don't know for sure. I just know that all sins, outside of blasphemy, can be forgiven and that is why you will never see me uttering the despicable words "you will burn in hell for being a homosexual." In fact, if you find a "Christian" who says that, point them in my direction, so I too can give them a hard time.
this is the dumbest crock of ***I've ever read.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 03:46:46
You have to give me a few minutes, I'm still taking in that last statement.
I don't understand what is so difficult to take in about disagreeing with homosexuality but not hating homosexuals.
I believe it is against nature, science is actually in my favor on that one. I also cannot understand how a man can be attracted to another man that way and I can openly admit that I never will and shouldn't bother trying, since I will never be attracted to another man. The greatest fallacy here is a heterosexual expecting a homosexual to understand something they cannot, and vice versa.
Outside of homosexuality, they all have feelings, goals, ambitions, desires. They work jobs and pay taxes. They generally are nice people. Why do I have to hate the person, because I disagree with an act that I am not even taking part in anyway? The problem is you condemn homosexuality and yet condone homosexuals in the same breath.
I don't condemn. Show me where I condemn. Show me where I said they were guaranteed a trip to hell for this. Since you cannot, I will point to you where I blatantly said that I believe homosexuals have a chance at forgiveness.
By saying saying that homosexuals must be forgiven of their sin of homosexuality in order to be considered for heaven.
That translate to homosexuality is a sin.
Right, you did say that god forbids it right?
I'll ask you again, Is homosexuality a sin?
Yes, homosexuality is a sin.
However, you make it sound like homosexuals are given a raw deal in having to be forgiven for the sin of homosexuality.
I have to be forgiven for the sin of premarital sex. I have to be forgiven for the sin of having a child out of wedlock.
God forbids all that too and just like a homosexual, I have the possibility of being forgiven.
You make it sound like homosexuality is the only thing God calls a sin and that they are specifically being singled out with the word sin. They are not.
Outside of blasphemy, all sins can be forgiven, all sins are on the same level. We are all sinners, no matter what Westboro may believe. If you recall in the beginning we are starting with one law at a time, remember?
Saying homosexuality is a sin, is in fact condemning it.
Uh, false. Sin can be forgiven. Ok I see where the problem is.
Labeling something as a sin, is not condemning it?
If so then why would it need to be forgiven in the first place?
I feel like you are just mincing words here.
Either which way, the point you are going around, is I have not stated, nor do I believe that homosexuality is unforgivable and automatically eliminates all hope that a person can enter Heaven. For all I know, I won't enter because of my sins, numerous as some may be, could be viewed by God as more egregious.
God forbids it, that's why you have to apologize to him. If you choose not to believe in God, then you shouldn't be worried about it. It's almost like you would rather all religious people walk around and tell you that you are going to burn in hell, because it would make you feel right 100% of the time. No I'm really trying to get to the bottom of this.
A sin is not something that's being condemned, rather it's something that god forbids.
When you die or w/e you have to apologize for those sins if you want to be considered into heaven.
Is that correct?
I don't know, I haven't died yet. I don't know what the actual decorum will be. Will you actually have to say I am sorry, or will he judge you by your deeds overall and what he reads in your heart?
Sin can be forgiven, it doesn't really give us the stipulation on what the exact requirements for forgiveness are. I would imagine in this circumstance that it would be truly repentant for sinning and not just saying it for a free pass. Ok let's try this from a different angle...
god has decided what is a sin, is that what your belief is?
God has called homosexuality a sin, I am not debating that.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 03:47:39
What is this original sin you speak of?
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 03:48:32
What is this original sin you speak of?
The original sin is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge after God forbade it.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:49:23
What is this original sin you speak of?
The original sin is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge after God forbade it.
this is the main part of religion keeping the man down: saying knowledge is evil...
/facepalm
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Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 03:49:44
you didn't answer my question, you avoided it. I provided an alternate definition from the Merriam Webster dictionary to more clearly define what a bigot is. To answer your earlier question, no, I do not believe that a person intolerant of racism is a bigot.
Edit: I believe the way you responded is your way of "splitting hairs" and avoiding it all together.
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2012-01-16 03:51:07
All good, all powerful being.
Creates sin.
Why?
Go. Can't you liken it to a parent/child scenario? I know you don't but believe for a second that god created man. A father and a mother get together and create a child. They try to guide that child to a path that they feel is right for the benefit of his/her life. They lay down rules and deal out punishments when those rules are broken. As they grow you hope you have taught them well enough to function and prosper. We all distance ourselves from that parent/child relationship and live according to our own free will. We are now driven by free will. Our parents hope that the lessons they taught us stick with them and aide them but in the end we make our own choices and live as we choose.
No matter who it is people make rules, deem what is bad/punishable and act against those that infringe against those rules and enforce punishment when they do.
I just thought of this analogy yesterday, funny you mention it.
Even if a parent raises a child and the kid turns out to be a total screw up, most parents would NOT condemn their kid to an eternity of torment and suffering. Perhaps they might put their child in an institution to be rehabilitated or be pent up with rage (frustration) regarding the actions of the wayward child but in no condition would a loving parent willingly decide the child is no longer useful and discard them to the wastebin of history.
Anger subsides, disappointment subsides, rebellion subsides but love does not. This is easily observable in humans and we're creations based on a higher being.
If an atheist rejected God based on the evidence but still lived a life helping others, doing the right thing and spreading love to his fellow human beings (and animals) he occupied the Earth with then a loving God would immediately outstretch his arm and welcome his creation into the embrace of eternal life because it would be the right thing to do. Rules? It'd be about actions not how hard you prostrate yourself.
If you accept that God created all men then he knows every human thoughts including their true intentions but this is always missed in the theological red tape for the 'do you bend your knee to God?' question. Why would a loving God even care? He knows you're not going to believe in him without evidence but you're good at core.
Obviously the reason this doesn't work is because humanity works on control and men living good lives without God simply aren't controlled easily. So we have a God that hands out eternal punishments, is wrathful and doesn't care about good works but rather if you believed in Jesus based on scrap evidence, wants you at church every Sunday and makes it unforgivable if you can't believe in him based on the flawed human evidence.
Sometimes I think people forget how long eternity is.
[+]
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 03:51:33
What is this original sin you speak of?
The original sin is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge after God forbade it. Oh right that thing, ok.
Back to the other point. So the belief is that god has decided what the sins are.
We've covered homosexuality a lot...
I'm still a little confused on this whole sin and forgiveness thing, but let's move on.
Give me another sin now.
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2012-01-16 03:52:00
Hey, open wide, here comes original sin!
[+]
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:52:25
you didn't answer my question, you avoided it. I provided an alternate definition from the Merriam Webster dictionary to more clearly define what a bigot is. To answer your earlier question, no, I do not believe that a person intolerant of racism is a bigot.
it is by the definitions pasted on this thread.
hence why I said the definition is vague.
it doesn't account for times when the ideas/etc are themselves bigoted/intolerable.
So if we agree that being intolerant of something intolerable isn't bigotry I'd appreciate it if you retracted your insult and refrained from continuing to insinuate that I'm so "evil" by condemning people who shouldn't be protected for their illogical, ridiculous and usually hate filled beliefs.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:53:27
to your edit: no it was my main point...
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 03:54:58
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »All good, all powerful being.
Creates sin.
Why?
Go. Can't you liken it to a parent/child scenario? I know you don't but believe for a second that god created man. A father and a mother get together and create a child. They try to guide that child to a path that they feel is right for the benefit of his/her life. They lay down rules and deal out punishments when those rules are broken. As they grow you hope you have taught them well enough to function and prosper. We all distance ourselves from that parent/child relationship and live according to our own free will. We are now driven by free will. Our parents hope that the lessons they taught us stick with them and aide them but in the end we make our own choices and live as we choose.
No matter who it is people make rules, deem what is bad/punishable and act against those that infringe against those rules and enforce punishment when they do.
I just thought of this analogy yesterday, funny you mention it.
Even if a parent raises a child and the kid turns out to be a total screw up, most parents would NOT condemn their kid to an eternity of torment and suffering. Perhaps they might put their child in an institution to be rehabilitated or be pent up with rage (frustration) regarding the actions of the wayward child but in no condition would a loving parent willingly decide the child is no longer useful and discard them to the wastebin of history.
Anger subsides, disappointment subsides, rebellion subsides but love does not. This is easily observable in humans and we're creations based on a higher being.
If an atheist rejected God based on the evidence but still lived a life helping others, doing the right thing and spreading love to his fellow human beings (and animals) he occupied the Earth with then a loving God would immediately outstretch his arm and welcome his creation into the embrace of eternal life because it would be the right thing to do. Rules? It'd be about actions not how hard you prostrate yourself.
If you accept that God created all men then he knows every human thoughts including their true intentions but this is always missed in the theological red tape for the 'do you bend your knee to God?' question. Why would a loving God even care? He knows you're not going to believe in him without evidence but you're good at core.
Obviously the reason this doesn't work is because humanity works on control and men living good lives without God simply aren't controlled easily. So we have a God that hands out eternal punishments, is wrathful and doesn't care about good works but rather if you believed in Jesus based on scrap evidence, wants you at church every Sunday and makes it unforgivable if you can't believe in him based on the flawed human evidence.
Sometimes I think people forget how long eternity is.
You really think you understand Christianity, but you don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY
Please watch this, and then you will understand how I personally feel about Christianity.
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 03:55:57
some of the people in this thread have more understanding of christianity than the entire bible belt combined, I think you need to check yourself.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 03:56:13
What is this original sin you speak of?
The original sin is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge after God forbade it. Oh right that thing, ok.
Back to the other point. So the belief is that god has decided what the sins are.
We've covered homosexuality a lot...
I'm still a little confused on this whole sin and forgiveness thing, but let's move on.
Give me another sin now.
Gluttony.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 03:56:29
I had to stick that video in here, rather than a link.
Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2012-01-16 03:58:21
I somehow knew that would come up. Equally awful. Actually, worse.
[+]
Lakshmi.Flavin
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By Lakshmi.Flavin 2012-01-16 03:59:23
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »All good, all powerful being.
Creates sin.
Why?
Go. Can't you liken it to a parent/child scenario? I know you don't but believe for a second that god created man. A father and a mother get together and create a child. They try to guide that child to a path that they feel is right for the benefit of his/her life. They lay down rules and deal out punishments when those rules are broken. As they grow you hope you have taught them well enough to function and prosper. We all distance ourselves from that parent/child relationship and live according to our own free will. We are now driven by free will. Our parents hope that the lessons they taught us stick with them and aide them but in the end we make our own choices and live as we choose.
No matter who it is people make rules, deem what is bad/punishable and act against those that infringe against those rules and enforce punishment when they do.
I just thought of this analogy yesterday, funny you mention it.
Even if a parent raises a child and the kid turns out to be a total screw up, most parents would NOT condemn their kid to an eternity of torment and suffering. Perhaps they might put their child in an institution to be rehabilitated or be pent up with rage (frustration) regarding the actions of the wayward child but in no condition would a loving parent willingly decide the child is no longer useful and discard them to the wastebin of history.
Anger subsides, disappointment subsides, rebellion subsides but love does not. This is easily observable in humans and we're creations based on a higher being.
If an atheist rejected God based on the evidence but still lived a life helping others, doing the right thing and spreading love to his fellow human beings (and animals) he occupied the Earth with then a loving God would immediately outstretch his arm and welcome his creation into the embrace of eternal life because it would be the right thing to do. Rules? It'd be about actions not how hard you prostrate yourself.
If you accept that God created all men then he knows every human thoughts including their true intentions but this is always missed in the theological red tape for the 'do you bend your knee to God?' question. Why would a loving God even care? He knows you're not going to believe in him without evidence but you're good at core.
Obviously the reason this doesn't work is because humanity works on control and men living good lives without God simply aren't controlled easily. So we have a God that hands out eternal punishments, is wrathful and doesn't care about good works but rather if you believed in Jesus based on scrap evidence, wants you at church every Sunday and makes it unforgivable if you can't believe in him based on the flawed human evidence.
Sometimes I think people forget how long eternity is. According to your beliefs though we only have this life correct? When we die we fade to nothing and our physical bodies decompose. If a parent were to lock their child up for the rest of his life due to a behavioral issue or crime or what not is that not condemning them for their eternity?
I hear about parents in other countries getting rid of babies by throwing them away because they are born female and that won't help them take care of their families. I hear about people here in our own nation killing their children. We lock people up for life or kill them because they committed what we deem a crime worthy of that punishment. A life sentence, throwing someone behind bars and giving up on them because we find that they are irredeemable.
Who defines what a loving parent is? Fallible human beings? We fight all the time about what we feel is right and wrong and many people differ in their opinions.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2012-01-16 04:02:14
What is this original sin you speak of?
The original sin is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge after God forbade it. Oh right that thing, ok.
Back to the other point. So the belief is that god has decided what the sins are.
We've covered homosexuality a lot...
I'm still a little confused on this whole sin and forgiveness thing, but let's move on.
Give me another sin now.
Gluttony. Why has god made gluttony a sin now?
Bahamut.Jetackuu
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By Bahamut.Jetackuu 2012-01-16 04:04:04
I think we need to bring back penal colonies in response to the criminal thing, oh and to stop imprisoning people for victimless "crimes".
as to the "belief" that we only have this life, that's not really a "belief" it's just that nobody has any logical reason to "believe" otherwise, if you do: please share.
lack of a belief =/= a belief again.
Ragnarok.Evandis
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By Ragnarok.Evandis 2012-01-16 04:04:17
Our bodies are a gift from Him, our lives a gift from Him. We are suppose to treat our bodies as a temple. How many temples do you know have grease and cheese dripping from them as they slowly decay into oblivion?
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