The Last Dance: Gearing Paradigms For A New Age

;-(

I had hoped that you'd take over the guide at some point soon™.

Sooooooo, who feels like working on an updated version of the very first ffxiah.com comprehensive job guide with me? Working on the DRG guide with Legato showed me that having two brains is so much better than having just one brain.

It's because Climactic Flourish only has a CHR+50% modifier, unlike Striking Flourish and Ternary Flourish, which have the CHR+100% modifier you mentioned.

It's not exactly "Sneak Attack for CHR from any direction".

Well, that's not the largest reason.

Like Sneak Attack, the base damage is only added to the first swing of the WS and is added outside the fTP term. So for first hand base damage you have:

Main hand base damage = (Base Weapon Damage + fSTR + DEX*.8)*fTP + CHR*0.5

Rudra's Storm has an fTP between ~4 and 8 (with Moonshade). Even assuming you're using it at 100 TP, you can distribute the 4 and get this:
Main hand base damage = Base Weapon Damage*4 + fSTR*4 + DEX*3.2 + CHR*0.5

So now it should be obvious why DEX is so much better than CHR for this WS. It's essentially not worth considering the CHR base damage at all. Even STR has a higher contribution to damage than CHR (until fSTR caps). Also, every stat except CHR also affects offhand hits / multi-attacks.

Even with the other two F3s, it's not worth gearing FOR CHR.
Given how iLv everything has CHR vomit everywhere... And excessive amounts on "light armors"...
Stuff that has sizeable +DEX/STR on it (eg WS gear) should have a fairly large CHR too. (Similar to how "light armors" with massive DEX mods also have equally massive AGI mods.)

The only time it's worth considering the adjustments that SE made to Flourishes III is when using Striking/Ternary/Climactic and then meleeing. So lets say you're moving between monsters in Incursion and you pop Striking, then continue walking to the next monster. You might as well be wearing CHR in a ring slot or something.

But yeah, the lack of actual armor alternatives that favor one set of stats over another is a problem created by our iLevel shift.

I disagree.
Ternary Flourish has made me drop 8k Pyrrhic Kleoses on "DC" Dynamis mobs... When without it nets only ~1/2 that. (3~5k)
So at least that one is good for WSs. (I'd imagine that DA one is good too, but why DA when you could TA? Plus TA eats 3 FMs... So it's more intensive to use.)

Plus I greatly disagree about the statvomit being a negative for gearing for WSs.
Just for multi-stat modded WSs alone it's done wonders.

Though I do see what you mean about "alternatives" in regards to the body slot.
For pretty much every WS...
It's either Mes'yohi Haubergedon, Dread Jupon, or Vanir Cotehardie that usually wind up as best in slot. (Or you're SAM)
But then again...
It's kind of a blessing too such that for all jobs, you only need 3 body pieces for any and all WSs.

You seem to have misinterpreted my post. I said that it was only worth considering the changes to Flourishes III when autoattacking. As in, the only time that you should consider gearing for CHR is when using a Flourishes III and then swinging normally, which might happen if you precharge them while moving between monsters.

I haven't played DNC in an exceptionally long time, so I'm trying to catch up on all of the new gear added. Would Iuitl +1 with crit2 augments be a decent stepping stone until Felistris? Also, what is the current meta for merits? Thanks in advance for any advice.

It would be more than a stepping stone, I think. If Iuitl Headgear +1 with any +2 augments (DA/Crit) is behind Felistris, it's by a really small margin. Depending on circumstances etc., Iuitl Headgear +1 > Felistris Mask, too.

Group 1 merits still are these, clearly:

5/5 Haste Samba
5/5 Reverse Flourish

Group 2 merits... I guess it depends on your preferences and what you do on DNC. tl;dr: Do what you want to do. ;-p

I personally go with this:

1/5 Fan Dance
1/5 Saber Dance
3/5 No Foot Rise
5/5 Closed Position

Some people choose to not have merits in Closed Position and I understand their reasoning.


[Insert my side of the reasoning here. Later.]

This is also what I do at the moment. 3/5 NFR is enough to do WS -> NFR -> Reverse -> WS most of the time now that I have a RF+30 cape.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/45216-dev1242-Job-Adjustments?p=533178


I'm not sure what they mean here though:

I'm guessing it means "all hits" since all of those are multi-hit WS.

This seems to be the consensus.

Also: I've been thinking about Climatic v Tertiary Flourish.
Gonna go test it some, but thought I'd ask anyways in case anyone already has done it.
I'm thinking the 100% mod will be better than the +crit and 50%...
But I'm not 100% sure on that. Been pulling impressive numbers with TF, but maybe for Rudra's it might be better for CF?
(I namely just stick to Rudra's, Evis, Exenterator, and Pyrrhic Kleos... Mostly for WS properties and multihit-ness.)

Maybe if you are solo. If you add JA delay to the spreadsheet with standard party conditions, CF is the only one that improves your DPS at all.

In practice, not theory.
But after having done some preliminary testing... CF definitely boosts Rudra's more than TF. But it's not really a whole lot. (At least not for what I was doing.)
Plus, there is also the caveat of CF eating ALL your FMs.
So there's that to put into practice as well which will put a damper on any self-SCing...

There's also of note to take into consideration +DA/Crit/TAdmg gear... Of which I believe DNC has access to a bunch of each.
But that would just be preference and optimizing.

So it's all a give and take between the three. (Though personally I favor TF over SF.)

Will do some further tests, but should see similar results with the other WSs. Though with them being multihit, it might be different. (Though I doubt it.)

Do we also have a consensus on what those bonuses are? As far as "our" WS are concerned, the only first hit onry bonus I am aware of is the double ATK bonus on Exenterator. The way it is worded, one would think those bonuses already exist.

Hence the question. Or is it just me who's completely of those totally obvious bonuses?

For massive self-SC, sometimes I like to get 3000tp and 5 FMs then:
CF > Rudra > NFR (5 FMs) > Reverse > Evisceration (Darkness)

I have NFR 5/5 so when I use it I'm always able to Reverse>WS instantly, but even at 3/5 or 4/5 without using NFR then a step I'd imagine you're fine to SC (Relic body NFR augment, Empy hands and if you're lucky JSE cape for Reverse) or maaaaybe need 1 attack round. Probably time to squeeze a step in there after NFR to hit 5 if you really needed too.

The main issue is the JA delay hell from all of the above, but can be worth it for the big SC. If you're playing with many other DDs, the bigger problem is managing to even get a SC off without being interrupted by someone else WSing.

But yeah, otherwise I generally just use CF+Rudra when it's up and I have 5 FM. Not really that hard to get the FMs with the short Presto/step timers these days. I rarely bother with the other Flourish IIIs.

The difference between practice and theory is only how your execution differs from the assumed execution. I assumed 1.3 seconds per JA usage when calculating whether or not T3 flourishes were worth using, and the answer was that they were not.

This is my long skillchain script:

Frag -> Distortion -> Darkness -> Double Darkness (with a ~2500 TP Rudra's)

It would be possible to put Climactic back up before the last WS if it wears, because you'll have 5 FMs after Grand Pas ends and your Flourishes III timer will be at 0 seconds. If you were a little more tricky, you could move the first Climactic to before Evisceration and just rely on that last Climactic usage.

Anyway, it's good for unbuffed solo zergs but has little utility otherwise. In parties, I typically attempt only these two skillchains:
1) Evisceration -> Pyrrhic Kleos (-> Rudra's Storm)
2) Rudra's Storm -> Rudra's Storm
and I pay attention for other skillchain opportunities.


I hope that upgraded Empyrean armor makes our Flourishes III category more useful.

Yeah, it's not hard to get FMs up... I don't even use nonPresto steps as much anymore just from the delay, WS frequency, flow of battle, etc.

Though for multihit WSs I found that TF increased damage a LOT more than CF.
Which was surprising, but I guess it was only because of the 1st hit only thing they have so the 100%CHR probably wound up being better there. (Probably because their damage is mostly in the first hit...)
And the difference with Rudra's was noticeable... But it wasn't as huge a difference as I thought it might have.

Like you say, the biggest hindrance is other people and JAdelayshenanigans.

Where do Iuitl tights +1 factor into TP? I have a pair with 2 DA, and I'm curious to their ranking among other leg options.

Iuitl Tights +1 w/ DA+2 under most circumstances are among the top contenders for the best TP pants.

Sombra Tights (and Sombra Tights +1) are clearly better when not capping delay reduction. Otherwise, Sombra Tights, Manibozho Brais A15, or other pants with some DEX are better than Iuitl Tights +1, if you're sitting in the dDEX sweet spot, so that DEX gives you a sizeable chunk of critical hit rate +%.

Leg armor choice depends on what you are doing.

For anything hard where i'm usually tanking a good portion of the time I just use Iuitl+1(since they have pdt on them, good def and VIT) and treat them as hybrid set pants.

Stuff like respite cloak diremite hits hard but it is DNC tankable, I think everyone should have some Iuitl+1 pants for dancer against higher level content.

The only times I use mani A15 legs is for ws'ing, or tp set for trash/easy merits.

Quiahuiz?

I do TP in Str quiahuiz now, I think. Perhaps I should only use then when saber dance is up and am3 is down, but for now that is what I use. Between fstr and the extra 25 atk, they have almost always been the best tp pants for me in the spreadsheet.

Quiahuiz is good if you have sabredance up, which for most dnc is common for easier things or if you are blessed with someone that can keep more hate than you.

My gear choices are skewed due to probably riding fandance stance more than other dnc because I tank battlefields. I also roll with 5/5 fandance and wear the Iuitl+1 for hybrid cases pretty often.

Has anyone come up with some tp set alternatives if you have a Haverton ring?
I have a diff ring at the moment, but I thought about maybe getting it to make some different dw builds for multiple jobs not just dnc.

my cape has 5%DW aug and I think this still doesnt quite reach the delay floor if you are without trusts in say dyna/salvage, correct?
ItemSet 331491
The kaabnax pants have haste/fc on them so you cap gearhaste

I also just redid my quia pants to have the -dt and counter augment, trying for the best of both worlds when i'm /war and have to take hits/tank.

I'm gonna say the main benefit of Haverton on DNC has got to be to get out of Charis Casaque but I'm shooting from the hip here.

I know how significant it still is in a low-buff environment and you aren't exactly in danger in Dynamis but the raw stats on a 119 body can't count for nothing, here.

want it more for than just trash killing, been doing alot of diremite NM farming so magic haste buff is pretty spotty because of the slow debuff (+ all the time i'm hasteless after erase before I get haste again).

So in that case i've got only double march from a non relic 3 song bard a lot of the time, so i'm also looking for an ilevel TP set with either 1or2 marches from non relic non SV bard and haste1 at best.

The haverton ring feels like it could be useful in cases where im not getting top tier buffs or subjected to debuffs often.

I did not take Haverton so I do not know.

I do not know why you assume DNC needs to keep fan dance up to becomparably durable to other melee regardless whether we are taking hate. Fan Dance is for oh ***moments. It does have done utility as a potential TP option if you really need the extra durability, but we just became one of the best DD jobs in the game. Hopefully people will actually invite you to DD now.

Tanking the diremite when it pops hundredfist does hurt so fandance does nice there.
Ive also just said f-it and rode my am3 set that has no -dt instead and had to be curebombed. Sometimes I dont have healers fast enough or a backline good enough to do that.

I'm in perpetual states of oh **** when I play dancer because you cap hate incredibly fast and have no way to shed it.
I'll use fandance less when other people hold better hate, and mages cure faster. I enjoy the improved chance of not dying and being able to waltz 25% more often at the cost of 50dps because i dont sabredance and samba isnt even needed with maxbuffs.

My damage output loss in fandance means little when it improves the survivability of other, allowing a rag drk and a glanz mnk to keep going full dps mode because i'm holding hate. DNC is pretty OP when it comes to holding hate and tanking if anyone ever cares to try it.