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Non-Lowman Abyssea rage thread
 Gilgamesh.Tweeek
Server: Gilgamesh
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Posts: 2169
By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 12:45:08
If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get an atma why would you not want ~18 people who need the atma to participate?
If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get a "win" why would you not want ~18 people who need the zone win to participate?
When someone posts something like:
Quote: I can't really speak to how it is in big groups, although if you're doing something in a group of over 6, you have bigger problems to deal with!
They do not specify that it only applies to farming seals, +2 items, equipment. So they are assuming not only that the group of 6+ can only get a kill with more than 6 they are also assuming the purpose of the kill when it very well could be for the atma the same as you guys are assuming that you know the purpose of every group formed to get a kill.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 12:47:42
Quote: If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get an atma why would you not want ~18 people who need the atma to participate?
If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get a "win" why would you not want ~18 people who need the zone win to participate?
Argument valid once per NM.
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Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 12:50:24
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get an atma why would you not want ~18 people who need the atma to participate?
If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get a "win" why would you not want ~18 people who need the zone win to participate?
Argument valid once per NM.
Everyone starts somewhere / sometime.
The post in the quote I mentioned does not specify or exclude, they only say things such as "if your group is over 6 people insult insult insult"
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 12:53:31
Quote: Everyone starts somewhere / sometime. My point still stands.
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By Sylph.Liltrouble 2011-01-27 12:56:27
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get an atma why would you not want ~18 people who need the atma to participate? If the only purpose of killing an NM was to get a "win" why would you not want ~18 people who need the zone win to participate? Argument valid once per NM. Everyone starts somewhere / sometime. The post in the quote I mentioned does not specify or exclude, they only say things such as "if your group is over 6 people insult insult insult" I agree, and with Abby, it seems most are starting at 90. XD. (Saw a 90 Blm in port jueno, rank 4, without even a moldy and nukin in AF1) So I took him and got him his Moldy and then did 2 runs of nyzule to get him his Goliard hands(at least it's something). Thing is, this thread evidently is an anti-elitist thread, which I am all for.
Friends joining an NM fight and contributing nothing whatsoever will garner alot of experience just from a spectator's view. And the comadre is more important than anything else, imo
Lakshmi.Aurilius
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By Lakshmi.Aurilius 2011-01-27 12:57:51
But their point stands too (Tiger and Night). You get the atma just by being in the zone. My friend needed some atmas while I was fighting an NM. He came in the zone and was by the conflux guy and got the atmas.
If you have 18 people with you, they can still split up. In fact if they do split up, you can do two or three atmas at once.
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2011-01-27 12:57:57
The cool thing about this thread is that there seems to be two sides:
1. "I can bring as many people as I want to a fight. We are here to have fun."
vs
2. "If there are people not doing anything, they find something else. What's the fun in standing there. We're here to have fun."
Don't really see any "OMFG n00b, XXXXX people is too many!!1!" (Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I don't really see it here. Yet everyone is all mad and ***.)\
I don't know though.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:02:57
If I'm at a ls event and we have more ppl than necessary, and I'm not a key player in a particular fight, I just go solo ***for TEs till they do something where I'm needed.
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Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:07:11
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Quote: Have you ever helped a friend on a mission you had already beat?
You ever help a friend with a quest you did not need?
You ever help a friend get old AF? Yes. The difference between them receiving aid and 14 people on a NM now is that everyone made a significant contribution in the above examples whereas half the people in an alliance are basically going to be sitting on their *** vs a single Abyssea NM. Granted, we didn't bring 18 people to farm a single chest key either.
Yes, you helped them to help them that was my point. People help people all the time in the game to help them. I help friends kill NMs for seals that drop nothing I need (lowman or not) the same way I would help a friend on a mission. The same way someone who already has RR would help friends get RR etc. It's to help people so I don't understand why people put others down for helping.
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Also, I really don't think any of the posters you're trying to make this thread about
The posters I'm trying to make this thread about are only people who continually put down any person for EVER having a group of more than 2-6 without ever asking the purpose of the kill or any other information. If that's what you do or if you are constantly saying "you took more than 2 people urdoinitrong" then so be it.
This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally.
I have no doubt (you two specifically) are great players and have a vast knowledge about the game more than many other typical players. I would not debate that you are more skilled at the game than many other players. What I would debate currently is that the content out currently is not a very good platform for distinguishing your gameplay and what separates you two from a mass amount of the population that plays the game.
My point is that there is a widespread flood of people who feel they are great/amazing players with an elitist type attitude because they lowman or duo. I can duo, I can lowman but that does not mean I'm some amazing player, just because I can duo some ***does not make me equally as good as all players who can duo most ***. People feel the need to parade this around that they are lowmanning or duoing ***like there are trophies being handed out for such an accomplishment. At the same time, these people put down others who choose to play with more than 6 like there are even more trophies being handed out.
If someone wants to have an elitist attitude that's fine, that's not my issue that's not even what I'm talking about. But using the fact that they lowman ***as the main reason behind their elitist attitude is laughable given the game content right now because most people can and do lowman/duo.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-01-27 13:07:12
There are multiple problems with taking atma proc into consideration:
1) once per NM
2) don't have to actually be at the NM
3) everyone is only able to participate (provided they're able to proc and somebody else isn't covering their WSs) so long as you're attempting to find and proc red. Once red wears off, most of them have to get the *** off the NM or ***will get ugly in a hurry due to infinite mob TP and the sheer amount of damage taken.
Boss clears pose similar problems. When I got my Rani clear on a LS run, it was painfully obvious that about half the alliance contributed nothing to the fight. tbh, most of us weren't even really contributing to red proc and the NM was brewed (to hilarious effect, resulting in a second brew used) once red was proc'd so little if any interaction with the NM occurred for most of the members. Boring. Might as well have popped two NMs simultaneously and pulled them near each other, we certainly had the manpower and it would have been much less boring.
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Gilgamesh.Hanbok
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By Gilgamesh.Hanbok 2011-01-27 13:08:17
well IMO: even if your friends are semi useless there it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a chance to participate, some of the NM's in abyssea are a pain in the ***, it may be weeks before a person gets a chance to fight them, so if you have a friend that just recently joined and doesn't have a job that could be usefull during the fight for procs, stun's, pulling TP/providing mobs etc, OR if you've those jobs are already covered, it doesn't mean they should gtfo.
i could be missing the conversation entirely though lol >.<
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-01-27 13:09:53
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said: Yes, you helped them to help them that was my point. People help people all the time in the game to help them. I help friends kill NMs for seals that drop nothing I need (lowman or not) the same way I would help a friend on a mission. The same way someone who already has RR would help friends get RR etc. It's to help people so I don't understand why people put others down for helping. Then you should probably deal with the disparity between what people are saying and what you think they're saying.
Quote: This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally. Who says we're taking it personally? notevenmad.jpg, I'm bored camping Megalobugard for trials and you made a post that I felt like responding to. Tiger doesn't seem to be taking it personally either from my perspective.
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By Sylph.Liltrouble 2011-01-27 13:12:03
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally. My point is that there is a widespread flood of people who feel they are great/amazing players with an elitist type attitude because they lowman or duo. maybe cause they recognize an anti-elitist thread and SHOULD take it personally?
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:12:23
Quote: This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally.
Who said I was taking it personally? Aside from this post, have I said anything such as "you're a moron", "idiot", etc.?
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By Sylph.Liltrouble 2011-01-27 13:16:03
Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally. Who said I was taking it personally? Aside from this post, have I said anything such as "you're a moron", "idiot", etc.? why would you start now?
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:16:10
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: There are multiple problems with taking atma proc into consideration:
1) once per NM
2) don't have to actually be at the NM
3) everyone is only able to participate (provided they're able to proc and somebody else isn't covering their WSs) so long as you're attempting to find and proc red. Once red wears off, most of them have to get the *** off the NM or ***will get ugly in a hurry due to infinite mob TP and the sheer amount of damage taken.
Boss clears pose similar problems. When I got my Rani clear on a LS run, it was painfully obvious that about half the alliance contributed nothing to the fight. tbh, most of us weren't even really contributing to red proc and the NM was brewed (to hilarious effect, resulting in a second brew used) once red was proc'd so little if any interaction with the NM occurred for most of the members. Boring. Might as well have popped two NMs simultaneously and pulled them near each other, we certainly had the manpower and it would have been much less boring.
3rd time posting this.
Quote: Yes it is more "efficient" to have fewer people come with the most ideal job roles to kill and/or proc depending on the purpose of the party. No one is arguing this, no one is trying to debate this. Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Gilgamesh.Tweeek said: Yes, you helped them to help them that was my point. People help people all the time in the game to help them. I help friends kill NMs for seals that drop nothing I need (lowman or not) the same way I would help a friend on a mission. The same way someone who already has RR would help friends get RR etc. It's to help people so I don't understand why people put others down for helping. Then you should probably deal with the disparity between what people are saying and what you think they're saying.
I have been very specific about the messages that this thread is regarding. I know exactly what people are saying. If you have never said it then I'm not specifically talking about you. I'm talking about (also 3rd time posting)
Quote: I can't really speak to how it is in big groups, although if you're doing something in a group of over 6, you have bigger problems to deal with!
I understand exactly what Terminus is saying which is exactly why I keep trying to reiterate wtf I am talking about. There is not much room left for interpretation in that quote, they are simply putting down any group in Abyssea that ever use more than 6 people.
 Fenrir.Havster
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By Fenrir.Havster 2011-01-27 13:17:18
I actually like this post.
Agree with all being said and think both arguments going on are valid.
But I think a deffinate point that is valid is increase efficiency of the entire group at least by either farming TE's and pop items or going with your 6 people and doing a diff NM, sharing lights and chests.
Everyone wins, everyone gains.
Had a friend who needed THF seals and they were going FFA "Sure you can come down, come on THF and you can cap our pearl for us while we kill and poss a few ele WSs for base feet yeah?" "np at all" was the obvious reply. He came down, kept us supplied with pops done the above and it worked like a charm, would kill a few mobs in between pops and extended our time by about 70-80 mins and he got 8/8.
No fooking feet though.
My point is if you are staying for longer than just a single kill for zone boss/atma at least do SOMETHING to help the peeps that are getting you your gear :)
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:17:44
Quote: well IMO: even if your friends are semi useless there it doesn't mean they shouldn't have a chance to participate,
Standing there doing nothing =/= participating.
Quote: so if you have a friend that just recently joined and doesn't have a job that could be usefull during the fight for procs, stun's, pulling TP/providing mobs etc, OR if you've those jobs are already covered, it doesn't mean they should gtfo.
It means they should be working on TEs, helping with another NM that your group has a large enough number to do two at once, etc. No reason to just stand there, ever, unless you're afk.
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:18:37
Sylph.Liltrouble said: Sylph.Tigerwoods said: Quote: This thread was also not titled Attn: Nightfyre and Tiger I'm not sure why you two are taking it so personally. Who said I was taking it personally? Aside from this post, have I said anything such as "you're a moron", "idiot", etc.? why would you start now? Who said I planned on it? I would if I were taking it personally, though, which was my point. I haven't taken a single thing said in this thread personally.
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:18:53
I posted that it seemed as if you two were taking it personally because you keep posting about something other than what I was specifically talking about and like Terminus pointed out it we are talking about two different things even though I am continually trying to point out the specific type of messages I am talking about.
the more i read this ^ the more it looks like ***but lol i can't simplify right now idunno why hopefully some sense can be made of it sorry
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:21:35
Quote: I posted that it seemed as if you two were taking it personally because you keep posting about something other than what I was specifically talking about and like Terminus pointed out it we are talking about two different things even though I am continually trying to point out the specific type of messages I am talking about.
I'm talking about other things because what you just mentioned was already addressed by me. With no disagreements or arguments presented to it, so why bring it up again?
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:24:21
Sylph.Tigerwoods said:
Quote: so if you have a friend that just recently joined and doesn't have a job that could be usefull during the fight for procs, stun's, pulling TP/providing mobs etc, OR if you've those jobs are already covered, it doesn't mean they should gtfo.
It means they should be working on TEs, helping with another NM that your group has a large enough number to do two at once, etc. No reason to just stand there, ever, unless you're afk.
That's on the leader of the party/ls though, if they can't find something for every person to do then that's on them. I'm sure I've been guilty of it before but I do think I try and find some purpose for each member in any event. Yes some roles are more useful to the purpose of the party than others but you can usually find something for everyone to do i.e. debuff, support, help proc people get TP, stun, farm lights or other things.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-01-27 13:25:14
Considering that I do think taking 14 people to any single Abyssea NM is a waste of time (aside from aforementioned one-off scenarios), I'm not entirely sure where things diverge aside from the fact that I usually don't comment on the matter in public channels. If I have that many people in alliance on a NM run, we're doing multiple NMs.
EDIT: clarification
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By Sylph.Tigerwoods 2011-01-27 13:26:06
That's my point. Everyone should be doing something. If anyone is sitting there doing absolutely nothing, then it's being done wrong.
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:30:50
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: Considering that I do think taking 14 people to any Abyssea NM is a waste of time, you're going to have to explain where things diverge aside from the fact that I usually don't comment on it in public channels.
You thinking it's a waste of time or not efficient =/= the following:
you telling someone they suck
you antagonizing someone saying they are doinitrong
you assuming they require 14 people to kill the NM
you commenting in public channels that you are better than them because you killed it with less
you entitling yourself to an elitist attitude based solely on the fact that you are able to lowman
Probably more but that's off the top of my head. By you not making posts like that you are not doing the above so I have no beef with you.
Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn
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By Quetzalcoatl.Dawnn 2011-01-27 13:32:58
I happen to like big groups of people doing NM's and stuff, the only problem I find is shout groups most always turn out to be fail...
for instance yesterday! We fought orthus with 14 people and nearly wiped! The white mage was slow as hell on paralyna's and cures, I happened to be on dancer at the time and figured I wasn't doing much good just standing there. Swapped out to regain atmas, and guess what happened? the Whm ran out of time and people were standing in range for that stupid fire move, wiped then HP'd and disbanded, so I was main curing my party.
Was it harder than it was supposed to be with 14+ people? yes
Was it easier at the end when it was just 2 DD's and me healing? yes
sucks only being able to cure once every 14 seconds but we managed to take it down, Its fail shout groups that tend to get everyone all pissed off, and 2~4 people who know what they are doing can do it faster/more efficient than 14+
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:34:09
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: If I have that many people in alliance on a NM run, we're doing multiple NMs.
EDIT: clarification
You've already said you took that many people for Rani the first time. What about the first time you got RR atma?
If you were to go get the RR atma now with a full ally yes now you could and would go get more NMs and do them at the same time but those people are not you. They could be doing RR for their first time. Why would you (not you specifically) put someone down for doing something the same way you once upon a time did it? That's my point.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-01-27 13:35:26
Gilgamesh.Tweeek said: Fenrir.Nightfyre said: If I have that many people in alliance on a NM run, we're doing multiple NMs.
EDIT: clarification
You've already said you took that many people for Rani the first time. What about the first time you got RR atma?
If you were to go get the RR atma now with a full ally yes now you could and would go get more NMs and do them at the same time but those people are not you. They could be doing RR for their first time. Why would you (not you specifically) put someone down for doing something the same way you once upon a time did it? That's my point. Fenrir.Nightfyre said: (aside from aforementioned one-off scenarios) Late edit, sorry. That said, at least a few people will be essentially leeching credit in such a scenario.
 Sylph.Vestal
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By Sylph.Vestal 2011-01-27 13:38:52
Bismarck.Elanabel said: FFXI is now about having simple fun, and no longer about masturbating and self-appreciation.
Mastutbating is simple fun. And self appreciation so, ffxi is masturbation. Meaning..... I masturbate while i masturbate!
Gilgamesh.Tweeek
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By Gilgamesh.Tweeek 2011-01-27 13:40:49
Fenrir.Nightfyre said:
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: (aside from aforementioned one-off scenarios) Late edit, sorry. That said, at least a few people will be essentially leeching credit in such a scenario.
Well I wish every person edited that in their insult posts that litter the forums but they don't and even if they were asked I have a feeling most people who are constantly posting ***like "urdoinitrong if doing more than 2 people" would not.
It would better serve them to come in make some stupid *** remark like OMG you don't have RR? you're a n00b gimp I could solo the giant on my RDM!!
They don't bother saying ***like "unless it's for zone kill" they just post how they could solo/duo/lowman the NM in question and insult the other person.
No one is saying certain spots in bigger parties should not be considered leeching though, sure maybe they are leeching that's the choice of the people letting them in the party or helping them. Similar to when someone helped me with my WHM AF1 body (painful experience ty DH, Sneakie, Fushi) I was leeching as I did nothing to help.
What people are doing with their posts on FFXIAH.com is assuming that the group needs the leeches for the kill.
I'm pretty sick of people talking about what they can kill with 2 people or when people freak out if you play with more than 6 people.
Could I duo (as WHM) most shit with my MNK friends (or NIN or THF etc)? Yes.
Do we duo stuff often? Sure it's fun.
Believe it or not, people do not need permission from FFXIAH.com to play with friends. Everyone hold on I'm about to shock you, sometimes I play with 13 other friends AT THE SAME TIME omg I know I have so many problems how dare me help more than myself or one other friend at a time on this MMO game.
Should we not be allowed to ever party with friends or help friends who do not have specific jobs?
"Oh, I'm sorry of the absolute minimum jobs required to maximize efficiency I no longer have a requirement to 'use' you as a friend. The only jobs I am interested in are MNK WHM NIN BLU BLM BRD WAR gieven the current state of the game you either do not have one of these jobs or we have already filled that spot please get out of my life I would not want to disappoint FFXIAH.com"
You are not special because you lowman, you are not special because you duo in Abyssea, to think that people who run in god forbid a partial or full alliance are incapable or that they never lowman is just plain ignorant. This newest form of elitism is fucking hilarious to me because it doesn't even require someone to be elite other than an attitude. At least the older era of elitism actually did shit not everyone else could do or was doing or was willing to do. Lowmanning/duo is literally being done by most of the population playing the game it's nothing special it's not as if there is a few select set of people with such uber skills and gear that only them alone are able to do this.
What exactly do people get out of making statements about people playing with more than 4 people? Why do people constantly go out of their way to let people know how they lowman a number of NMs in Abyssea?
Yes it is more "efficient" to have fewer people come with the most ideal job roles to kill and/or proc depending on the purpose of the party. No one is arguing this, no one is trying to debate this.
Sometimes the roles additional people have outside those jobs are less useful but this does not mean you need to tell them to go crawl in a corner and die. It does not mean you are no longer allowed to help more people out at a time, this does not mean you have to limit the people you socialize with or party with. Or here's another insane concept, not every single friend or person plays the game 24/7 or they do not ALL play on the exact same schedule. Having more than the tiny limited amount of friends I'm allocated by FFXIAH.com people could actually change jobs and fill different roles depending on who was online.
tl;dr
What people need to fucking understand is there is an obvious difference between choosing to party with 7+ people and a requirement to party with 7+ people to get shit done. Just because someone plays in a group of 7 or more does not mean they can't do shit without the group.
/rant
/nerdrage
//calming down
thread was inspired from countless posts but most recently:
Quote: I can't really speak to how it is in big groups, although if you're doing something in a group of over 6, you have bigger problems to deal with!
inb4floodofratedownsidc
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