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Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angrying it deeply?
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 17:40:13
Asura.Bartimaeus said: This thread is out of control. Stop making such heated topics. Talk about something less controversial like abortion.
Or Female Genital Mutilation.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:43:21
Are you familiar with the animal phenomena of empathy? That humans naturally feel empathy towards other humans unless taught otherwise. Also, note the fact that many children are forced to memorize the Qu'ran to appease their parents. That would be all fine and dandy... if the Qu'ran didn't have such hideous dehumanizing passages in it...
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures." (98:6)
"Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe." (8:55)
"Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful." (7:179)
There are more, lots more, stating that unbelievers aren't even human.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 17:46:34
Trebold said: Are you familiar with the animal phenomena of empathy? That humans naturally feel empathy towards other humans unless taught otherwise. Also, note the fact that many children are forced to memorize the Qu'ran to appease their parents. That would be all fine and dandy... if the Qu'ran didn't have such hideous dehumanizing passages in it... "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures." (98:6) "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe." (8:55) "Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful." (7:179) There are more, lots more, stating that unbelievers aren't even human.
Meh, I'd rather not be human, humans are *** stupid by nature.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:47:54
Garuda.Mabrook said: So basically your trying to create an argument with God?
That makes perfect sense!
All this time I thought you didn't like me.
And then you get people, who actually believe that all this trash is the word of God.
Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 17:48:56
Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: Are you familiar with the animal phenomena of empathy? That humans naturally feel empathy towards other humans unless taught otherwise. Also, note the fact that many children are forced to memorize the Qu'ran to appease their parents. That would be all fine and dandy... if the Qu'ran didn't have such hideous dehumanizing passages in it... "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures." (98:6) "Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe." (8:55) "Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful." (7:179) There are more, lots more, stating that unbelievers aren't even human.
Meh, I'd rather not be human, humans are *** stupid by nature. don't forget evil.
I have been saying that for years
Seraph.Zoey
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By Seraph.Zoey 2010-05-03 17:50:36
Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angering it deeply?
#1 Islam is a religion and not something that can have feelings.
#2 The question is very general and loaded with what seems like racism by the blanket generalized assumption of a negative reaction tied to a faith not of your own.
#3 Islamic people are not like the Borg on Star Trek with one over mind or something like that.
#4 Get off your high horse and take your head out of your ***
If you are lets say, a christian, which is obvious given the high ingorance question, than do you think all christians are pissed alongside you for some junk you heard in your head or on TV? Common sense tells me it's highly unprobable.
Even folks of other religions than you value indapendant thought. The only reason you assume that Islamic folk are so co-dependant for thoughts is because you yourself look to a religious authority or TV person for how to think and what to think and are projecting yourself onto an entire religion and than casting out that crap as what you think is an interesting question. Now go back to your Fox tv and feel those feeling you like to feel, the feeling of xenophibia fueled hatred.
[+]
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 17:52:09
We are not going to solve anything on here. Just offend someone even more. Peoples feeling will always be hurt when talking about religion.
There has to be an open dialog if people want to solve the problems that we currently have. Our leaders just cant ignore the matter like nothing is going on and think that it will simply go away.
After all, dont we all want to live in peace? How do we do that without offending anyone? I do not have an answer, do you?
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:54:22
Seraph.Zoey said: Why is it so difficult to criticize Islam without angering it deeply?
#1 Islam is a religion and not something that can have feelings.
#2 The question is very general and loaded with what seems like racism by the blanket generalized assumption of a negative reaction tied to a faith not of your own.
#3 Islamic people are not like the Borg on Star Trek with one over mind or something like that.
#4 Get off your high horse and take your head out of your ***
If you are lets say, a christian, which is obvious given the high ingorance question, than do you think all christians are pissed alongside you for some junk you heard in your head or on TV? Common sense tells me it's highly unprobable.
Even folks of other religions than you value indapendant thought. The only reason you assume that Islamic folk are so co-dependant for thoughts is because you yourself look to a religious authority or TV person for how to think and what to think and are projecting yourself onto an entire religion and than casting out that crap as what you think is an interesting question. Now go back to your Fox tv and feel those feeling you like to feel, the feeling of xenophibia fueled hatred.
improbable
Actually, I'm not religious at all. But no other religion challenges the human-rights of people as often and as cruelly as Islam does. That is where I draw my line.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:55:27
Seraph.Rafik said: We are not going to solve anything on here. Just offend someone even more. Peoples feeling will always be hurt when talking about religion.
There has to be an open dialog if people want to solve the problems that we currently have. Our leaders just cant ignore the matter like nothing is going on and think that it will simply go away.
After all, dont we all want to live in peace? How do we do that without offending anyone? I do not have an answer, do you?
Well spoken.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 17:56:45
Asura.Korpg said: don't forget evil. I have been saying that for years
It's just, in my eyes, people are living every day of their lives by books written, millenia ago. Be it that they are interpreting it wrong or not, it is MY personal belief that to not question something written by man 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago is stupid. What if everyone is right about God, but wrong about religion? "Heavenly Father, my Lord & Savior, I vanquished millions of non-believers for you, following the teachings of..." "You followed what? Written by WHO? Oh, he's been in hell for 2000 years, by the way, tell him I said 'hello'." Then what? I'd rather take my chances with neutrality, myself.
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 17:57:02
Asura.Korpg said: I think what bothers people about Muslims the most is, there is no camp training people to spread the word in any religion, there is no camp training people to enjoy life, but there are camps in Afghanistan and possibly other places we don't know of that are training radicals.
Islam has the largest radical/rational population in all religions. You can't deny that.
What do you call Southern States? Catholic Schools? etc.. Come on, do you honestly believe half the people in our red states are all about cultural tolerance or closet racists desperately trying to cling to maintaining their circles of like-minded individuals?
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By Seraph.Zoey 2010-05-03 17:57:35
There are over a billion Islamic folk on Earth. Not all of them are that Cleric which runs Iran.
[+]
Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 17:58:11
Asura.Bartimaeus said: Dunno about that. The Hindu caste system was pretty harsh..
unless being untouchable is your kind of thing.. That is true, look at Buddhism.
6 levels of reincarnation, all of which you don't know even if you are good and all that.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 17:58:12
Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: don't forget evil. I have been saying that for years
It's just, in my eyes, people are living every day of their lives by books written, millenia ago. Be it that they are interpreting it wrong or not, it is MY personal belief that to not question something written by man 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago is stupid. What if everyone is right about God, but wrong about religion? "Heavenly Father, my Lord & Savior, I vanquished millions of non-believers for you, following the teachings of..." "You followed what? Written by WHO? Oh, he's been in hell for 2000 years, by the way, tell him I said 'hello'." Then what? I'd rather take my chances with neutrality, myself.
lol, this made me giggle.
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 17:59:50
Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: don't forget evil. I have been saying that for years It's just, in my eyes, people are living every day of their lives by books written, millenia ago. Be it that they are interpreting it wrong or not, it is MY personal belief that to not question something written by man 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago is stupid. What if everyone is right about God, but wrong about religion? "Heavenly Father, my Lord & Savior, I vanquished millions of non-believers for you, following the teachings of..." "You followed what? Written by WHO? Oh, he's been in hell for 2000 years, by the way, tell him I said 'hello'." Then what? I'd rather take my chances with neutrality, myself. lol, this made me giggle.
How so?
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 18:00:42
Trebold, feel free to shoot me a PM if you're really interested.
Seraph.Rafik
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By Seraph.Rafik 2010-05-03 18:00:47
Tell me this.
What normal human being will blow themselves up?
It does not matter what religion they are, because they are mostly Fanatical, Radical or an Extremist. Every religion has its own nut.
Why do they do what they do? That is the million dollar question.
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 18:01:32
*** google with their singlemuslim.com ads, lol
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By Asura.Korpg 2010-05-03 18:02:21
Fairy.Maimed said: Asura.Korpg said: I think what bothers people about Muslims the most is, there is no camp training people to spread the word in any religion, there is no camp training people to enjoy life, but there are camps in Afghanistan and possibly other places we don't know of that are training radicals.
Islam has the largest radical/rational population in all religions. You can't deny that.
What do you call Southern States? Catholic Schools? etc.. Come on, do you honestly believe half the people in our red states are all about cultural tolerance or closet racists desperately trying to cling to maintaining their circles of like-minded individuals? Now you are just generalizing.
Every southerner is a radical? When did that happen?
I didn't say there were no such things as radicals outside of Islam, I said that there are more radical/rational people in Islamic communities than there are in any other religion.
You are assuming too much, go back to doing whatever you were doing before you came here on this thread.
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By Fairy.Maimed 2010-05-03 18:02:32
Seraph.Rafik said: Tell me this.
What normal human being will blow themselves up?
It does not matter what religion they are, because they are mostly Fanatical, Radical or an Extremist. Every religion hast its own nut.
Why do they do what they do? That is the million dollar question.
They would do it for a Klondike Bar :)
Phoenix.Kojo
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:03:06
Seraph.Rafik said: Tell me this. What normal human being will blow themselves up? It does not matter what religion they are, because they are mostly Fanatical, Radical or an Extremist. Every religion hast its own nut. Why do they do what they do? That is the million dollar question.
Well, if it's a Christian doing it, it's probibly insanity. If it's a Muslim doing it, it's probably because someone has manipulated him to do so, or it could be insanity.
By Trebold 2010-05-03 18:03:16
Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: don't forget evil. I have been saying that for years It's just, in my eyes, people are living every day of their lives by books written, millenia ago. Be it that they are interpreting it wrong or not, it is MY personal belief that to not question something written by man 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago is stupid. What if everyone is right about God, but wrong about religion? "Heavenly Father, my Lord & Savior, I vanquished millions of non-believers for you, following the teachings of..." "You followed what? Written by WHO? Oh, he's been in hell for 2000 years, by the way, tell him I said 'hello'." Then what? I'd rather take my chances with neutrality, myself. lol, this made me giggle.
How so?
In a good way, that you've made a good point.
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By Phoenix.Kojo 2010-05-03 18:05:48
Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Trebold said: Phoenix.Kojo said: Asura.Korpg said: don't forget evil. I have been saying that for years It's just, in my eyes, people are living every day of their lives by books written, millenia ago. Be it that they are interpreting it wrong or not, it is MY personal belief that to not question something written by man 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago is stupid. What if everyone is right about God, but wrong about religion? "Heavenly Father, my Lord & Savior, I vanquished millions of non-believers for you, following the teachings of..." "You followed what? Written by WHO? Oh, he's been in hell for 2000 years, by the way, tell him I said 'hello'." Then what? I'd rather take my chances with neutrality, myself. lol, this made me giggle. How so? In a good way, that you've made a good point.
Ah.
Fairy.Maimed said: Seraph.Rafik said: Tell me this. What normal human being will blow themselves up? It does not matter what religion they are, because they are mostly Fanatical, Radical or an Extremist. Every religion hast its own nut. Why do they do what they do? That is the million dollar question. They would do it for a Klondike Bar :)
"Hey, Lee Harvey Oswald, what would YOU do for a Klondike Bar?"
....
I think I figured out how it is possible that the large majority of people from the Muslim world would be so profoundly offended when their Prophet is criticized or made fun of. I mean, to them, it could very well look obvious, yet it seems they do not really understand why either. A lot of them just accept that someone would be killed for depicting the prophet Mohamed, even though we ask them why, in a way that we feel cannot be argued with. How is it possible that someone would be hated for openly making fun of something as mundane as religion, we ask? I think I can reasonably explain why they would accept the idea, believe it or not. I want to know what is to be done if we're going to help these people stop feeling so persecuted and if we’re going to finally gain the right to criticize Islam, as it should be, without threatening the people in it. The answer, I think, lies in our perceptions of what religion is versus where it should stand in relations to ethnicity. Help me out.
First, it is difficult to argue against the idea that Islam, to this day, is majorly against the advancement of secular culture. It is associated so directly to what I would refer, for lack of a better word, Arabian culture, that criticizing a religion tied so closely with it, appears (at least from my personal experience) to insult them, as people. Another factor to consider is how Muslims, despite their divisions, have the strength in numbers to lead us into being cautious about criticizing Islamic beliefs, even if it shouldn’t be so. Any critic, whether it is well intentioned or backed with incredibly solid and logical arguments, seems to backfire when it is targeted at Islam. More than often, it seems to be giving more reasons to feel justified, leading Islamic countries to cocoon themselves from modern secular culture. Unlike other ethnicities that are also extremely tied to their religion; the Jews, for example, the fact that they’re over a billion, somewhat gives them the mental ability to feel universally justified. It’s as if any strong criticism of Islam was a threat to their identity, integrity and intelligence, even when it’s not...
In a secular view, insulting religion doesn't necessarily equate to racial discrimination, and the fact that our western culture systematically ignores this, is the key point that prevents the western world from understanding why Muslims would be so offended. I have come to realize that a lot of Muslims try to say it, but it seems they do not understand what I am writing here, at least not enough to put it into the proper words that would make us understand. My goal is to help us both come to understand, through careful yet fortunate observations which I feel have led me to grasp some of this intricate psychology.
Let’s think for a second about this analogy: Let’s compare some white guy shouting racist comments towards blacks to your average non-Christian openly criticizing Christianity. Which is the worst, in the eyes of the average American, or European? Racism, isn’t it? Racism is undoubtedly the worst of those two things, at least according to our modern secular values. This is not to say that racism has been eradicated from the Western world, far from it. But even for the most racist among us in North America, it is extremely discouraged to make a racist statement publicly. It is not viewed as acceptable at all.
Have you ever seen a single Arabic person and expect him not to be a Muslim? It's as if their religion has so much grasp that it's nearly impossible for an Arabic person to not be a Muslim. But why doesn’t anyone seem to question this fact? Isn’t it fishy, considering that religion should be a choice? In fact, Muslims, in Muslim countries, are taught, from childhood, that the punishment for apostasy is death. The indoctrination is done to them so early in their life, and in such a strong and unquestionable way, that it achieves terrific results; it is almost irreversible. To them this is a good thing; to us, it’s just wrong.
In my opinion, the fact that Islam, as a religion, has been able to keep such a strong grasp, to this day, on the lives of the almost entirety of Arabic cultures is leading the Islamic world to a dangerous path. We all know that not only religion can be used to control masses, ii can also be a dangerous weapon. In America, some will argue, television is used for mass propaganda and it is difficult for the majority to avoid being brainwashed by many ideas that they would otherwise have never acquired as individuals. However, an average occidental still gets to make SOME choices about what morality should be; they chose whether they’ll be for or against abortion, whether they’ll be against slavery or not, whether they’ll vote for a black man or not.
It is possible to speak with a Muslim about what we dislike in Islam, without him getting angry. I have experienced it myself. It is difficult, however. Even as I was able to converse, I would feel the incredible pain that questioning one’s own identity can inflict on an indoctrinated individual. As we cannot tolerate being racially discriminated, they cannot tolerate negative criticism of Islam; they view is as their culture.
It may be sad to say, for most of us who wish for world peace, but secularism is not going to happen anytime soon in the Arab world. It could never be forced on Muslims. It is completely against their conception of what a religion should be and what place it should have in their life. Through what I have just explained, we can even understand the bottomless frustration of Muslims against non-Muslims when faced with debates like whether or not we should be banning the Burka in public spaces. The same issue arises: to us, it’s common sense and required for secularism, to them it’s a slap in the face, not as a Muslim but as an Arab. To us, it's freedom of speech; to them, it's against it. It is an insult to their culture, just as we would react to someone trying to deny our right to have a cultural background, just as we would react to a Muslim telling a White woman that wearing g-strings is degrading and wrong.
How can we possibly achieve a secular society, with Muslims living in it, if we do not agree on whether it’s okay to force someone to act secularly? Aren’t we stuck with the problem of having many kids arguing about who gets to play with the ball, while one of the kids sits on the ball, arguing that it should not be played with in the first place? How flexible can secularism be, without ending up betraying itself?
Can we find a temporary solution? I would like your opinion.
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