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Oberon's knuckles vs. destroyers
Alexander.Socrates
Server: Alexander
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By Alexander.Socrates 2010-02-06 13:10:29
Friend has ACC+8 delay-11% and additional effect light dmg+10 on his knuckles. so he NPC'd his broken destroyers bcuz he said he never used them after he got knuckles. Was he HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE?
Carbuncle.Sevourn
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By Carbuncle.Sevourn 2010-02-06 13:14:59
Seraph.Jacon
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By Seraph.Jacon 2010-02-06 13:16:20
yes he has mental issues.
DMG: +5 Delay: +48
Latent effect: DMG +18
Critical hit rate +6%
plus crit. merits capped is just lovely.
light dmg+10 is pointless and everyone should have acc capped out elsewhere.. acc on h2h does not justify the loss of what destroyers offers you.
Hades.Hiryo
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By Hades.Hiryo 2010-02-06 13:17:31
Carbuncle.Sevourn said: yes
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Server: Shiva
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By Shiva.Xellith 2010-02-06 13:18:31
shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is ***
Alexander.Socrates
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By Alexander.Socrates 2010-02-06 13:20:22
Shiva.Xellith said: shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is *** What about Relic? >.>
Seraph.Jacon
Server: Seraph
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By Seraph.Jacon 2010-02-06 13:20:35
well not true at all. you have to put spharai in there as well. they aren't ***by any means lol.
and you can also put in Glanzfaust as well:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Glanzfaust
Server: Siren
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-02-06 13:31:18
Alexander.Socrates said: Shiva.Xellith said: shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is *** What about Relic? >.> Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter+.
And I can't imagine Glanzfaust even coming CLOSE to Destroyers. Unless you get some sort of crazy bonus from Focus. Wiki says 5-10% Attack bonus and crit rate bonus, which can only be up 40% of the time. Not worth the double delay.
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Alexander.Socrates
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By Alexander.Socrates 2010-02-06 13:34:06
Siren.Enternius said: Alexander.Socrates said: Shiva.Xellith said: shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is *** What about Relic? >.> Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter kill yourself
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-02-06 13:37:32
Alexander.Socrates said: Siren.Enternius said: Alexander.Socrates said: Shiva.Xellith said: shenlongs > destroyers > everything else is *** What about Relic? >.> Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter kill yourself That's an appropriate response. Coming from someone who can't see why 18 DMG, 48 delay, and Crit+6% is better than 19 DMG and 85 delay? Clearly, you know a lot about MNK.
Seraph.Jacon
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By Seraph.Jacon 2010-02-06 13:41:26
there are lengthy debates about h2h on other forums with alot of testing and you can also throw in Faiths in the discussion.
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By Fairy.Phatdade 2010-02-06 13:51:40
Forgive my Monkly noobishness, but what about Hades?
I mean I know the +7 Enmity kind of negates the +7 Evasion, and the +7 Subtle Blow, but 6 percent crit increase just doesn't seem like a massive number, and the ACC+7 should at least bring it up as a contender shouldn't it?
Someone help me see the flaws of the Hades vs the Destros.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-02-06 13:55:05
Destroyers are about 13% better than Spharai from a purely DPS standpoint. 20 Attack is superior to 6% crit, especially considering Asuran doesn't crit, but that's a lot of ground to make up even with 3x damage procs and a higher Weapon Rank. If you can make use of that Counter boost though, Spharai will pull ahead for sure. It's a tanking weapon.
Lots of people ignoring Faiths, which is a mistake. Glanzfaust blows, Shenlong's are *** awesome, Hades Sainti have their place considering higher Weapon Rank and Accuracy but it really depends on your ability to make use of the accuracy and what kind of swaps you could make if you don't need it.
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By Siren.Enternius 2010-02-06 13:58:09
Fairy.Phatdade said: Forgive my Monkly noobishness, but what about Hades?
I mean I know the 7 Enmity kind of negates the 7 Evasion, and the 7 Subtle Blow, but 6 percent crit increase just doesn't seem like a massive number, and the ACC 7 should at least bring it up as a contender shouldn't it?
Someone help me see the flaws of the Hades vs the Destros. A contender, yes. But 6% crit rate is still 6%. 7 ACC is only 3.5% increase in hit rate. And the higher delay doesn't help it at all. Even if it is only +3 delay, that's still a 7~% delay increase from Destroyers.
Carbuncle.Strawhat
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By Carbuncle.Strawhat 2010-02-06 13:58:21
yes
tell him/her to slap himself
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By Remora.Lynnminmay 2010-02-06 13:59:21
Quote: Destroyers are better than Spharai, as long as you don't need the Counter+. Quote: That's an appropriate response. Coming from someone who can't see why 18 DMG, 48 delay, and Crit+6% is better than 19 DMG and 85 delay? Clearly, you know a lot about MNK.
Destroyers fan boy ? Saying that spharai outdo destroyers is 100% wrong, they never outdo it. The minimal damage difference will be about 5%, assuming the hidden tripple attack proc only affects main hand.
You don't need a lot of good augment to beat destroyers. Since the +6% crit doesn't affect asuran fists, 6% crit is equivalent to +2 DMG.
The global rating of H2H weapon is the following :
uncapped accuracy :
Shenlongs > spharai > Hades Sainti+1 > Hades Sainti > wagh baghnaks > Destroyers. Include augmented Oberon's K. in this list, depending on your luck. Faith should also rank 3rd here.
Capped accuracy
Spharai > shenlong > destroyers ... Same remark, you can insert faith and oberon's K. here.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-02-06 14:02:39
Quote: A contender, yes. But 6% crit rate is still 6%. 7 ACC is only 3.5% increase in hit rate. And the higher delay doesn't help it at all. Even if it is only +3 delay, that's still a 7~% delay increase from Destroyers. Less than 6% due to not procing on WS and it's not a 6% increase in damage... 3.5% accuracy is an increase of at least 3.8% assuming you can make full use of the accuracy, less some if you're making a trade instead of a straight upgrade. It's not a 7% delay increase.
(300+51)/(300+48)=1.0086
or a 0.86% increase in delay and thus loss in DoT.
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By Fairy.Phatdade 2010-02-06 14:11:35
Looks like Phatty got a new thing to go and get.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:23:16
Spharai are better than destroyers, sorry.
Destroyers aren't even in the top 3 when it comes to h2h
Spharai > Shenlongs > Faith baghs > hades+1 ≥ Destroyers
Looking at 5 fstr
18 vs 23 DMG = 58 vs 63 DMG
63/58 = 8.62% increase in dmg/hit
Delay 1/(386/348) = 90.1% as fast
90.1 x 1.0862 = 97.8% the dmg of destroyers.
Then you have to factor in the 6% crits (about 5% increase to DoT only) and 20 attack (about 5% increase to DoT and WS dmg), the fact that destroyers will get more tp/hit, take less attack rounds to 100, and the counters. The only way destroyers would beat spharai is if you never ws, it had no attack, no counter+, ect.
Edit: also, triple damage procs.
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Caitsith.Heimdall
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By Caitsith.Heimdall 2010-02-06 14:31:33
sad thing out allthis is mnk still useing same weapon from 5-7 years ago while every other job has had several reasonable new options to use.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:34:33
Here's more detailed math from Kinematics Quote: Edit: Making some adjustments and corrections based on miscellaneous objections over time since this post was made.
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Use of 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill isn't the best choice. 70/30 is closer for attentive players, pushing 65/35 with Usu feet and 60/40 with Faiths. As such I'm going to do a slightly more calculated variant.
WSC will tend to be approximately 12 for Asuran. I'm going to assume 20 melee hits per weaponskill (average of about 110 TP per weaponskill). The ratio can then be calculated from:
BD = Base Damage (including fStr)
Melee further adjusted by crit rates. Thus BD * (crit rate * 20) * crit rate enhancement (ie: 2.0 cRatio critting to 3.0 pDiff gives a 3.0/2.0 = 1.5x enhancement multiplier) is added to the total.
Melee = (20 * BD) + (BD * (20 * Crit%) * (CritPDiff/BasePDiff - 1))
Weaponskill = 8 * (BD + 12)
Accuracy and pDiff amounts (as long as they don't change between melee and weaponskill) will cancel out, so we can ignore them.
Later posts need to more properly account for Focus in the value of accuracy.
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Caveat: This is based purely on our (my) understanding of the math of the game. Any flaws in our combat model would directly impact the validity of these estimates. That said...
Are Destroyers really our best weapon?
I know that it's long been held to be a truism for mnk, and I know the mathmatical reasoning for it, but I also know that the math that was used was... 'sloppy' in some ways. Certain things were simply assumed in order to simplify the math when we weren't sure of some of the specifics.
As our understanding of some of the intricacies of the damage formulas has improved, I thought I'd look at how Destroyers fair now, from a theoretical standpoint.
First I want to know how much Destroyers actually improve our damage. For this series of comparisons I'm only looking at d18 weapons, so the improvements will mainly be in the additional bonuses on each weapon. For Destroyers, that's Crit Rate.
I want to know what potential range of improvement +6% crit rate is. We know that the higher your base crit rate the less value additional crit rate has, and we know that the higher your cRatio the less value crits in general have, so I want to look at those two aspects.
Worst Case for Destroyers:
Base crit rate is capped at 20%. We know that this is possible from the crit rate thread. I'll use greater colibri as the targets as they also have relatively low defense, and we can use the high cRatio to further limit the gain of Destroyers.
To affect cRatio, I'll take the base attack provided in the crit thread for the Osode setup (351), add Minuet 4 (+65), Coeurl Sub (+75), Chaos Roll w/Drk (+30%), and Dia III (-15% defense).
Level 81 birds: 322 Defense
w/Dia III: 274 Defense
Attack: 638 total
Base punch damage: 60
Base kick damage: 42
cRatio = (638 / 274) - .3 = 2.03, capped at 2.0
Assume capped Kick Attack merits and Brutal Earring.
Crit rate is 20% + 4% (merits) = 24%
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 17.5 kicks
Baseline:
- punches: 50.4 crit, 159.6 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit
Base damage: (159.6 * 2.0 * 60) + (50.4 * 3.0 * 60) + (13.3 * 2.0 * 42) + (4.2 * 3.0 * 42) = 29,870
w/Destroyers:
- punches: 63 crit, 147 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit
Destroyer damage: (147 * 2.0 * 60) + (63 * 3.0 * 60) + (13.3 * 2.0 * 42) + (4.2 * 3.0 * 42) = 30,626
Now, Destroyers have no effect on weaponskill damage (except Ascetic's Fury, but not considering that here).
Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*60) + (60 * (20 * 24%) * (3/2-1)) = 1,344
WS = 8 * (60+12) = 576
1344/(1344+576) = 70%
Melee/WS split: 70%/30%
Total base damage: 29,870 / .7 = 42,671
Weaponskill damage from that: 12,801
Total Destroyers damage: 30,626 + 12,801 = 43,427
Total improvement with Destroyers: 1.8%
This is the minimum improvement you can expect while using Destroyers (relative to a flat d18/+48 weapon).
Best case for Destroyers (XP):
Body: scorpion harness (no +attack)
Legs: no byakko's haidate (no +dex/crits)
Overall unmodified attack set to 375
No food
No Minuet
No Chaos Roll
No Dia
vs Lvl 82 birds:
cRatio = (375 / 327) - .35 = 0.80
Base punch damage: 56
Base kick damage: 38
Crit rate: 5% (no merits)
Brutal earring, no Kick Attack merits
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 12.5 kicks
Baseline:
- punches: 10.5 crit, 199.5 non-crit
- kicks: .625 crit, 11.875 non-crit
Base damage: (199.5 * 0.80 * 56) + (10.5 * 1.80 * 56) + (11.875 * .80 * 38) + (.625 * 1.80 * 38) = 10,400
w/Destroyers:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: .625 crit, 11.875 non-crit
Destroyers damage: (186.9 * 0.80 * 56) + (23.1 * 1.80 * 56) + (11.875 * .80 * 38) + (.625 * 1.80 * 38) = 11,105
Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*56) + (56 * (20 * .05%) * ((1.8/.8)-1)) = 1,190
WS = 8 * (56+12) = 544
1190/(1190+544) = 68.6% (melee percentage)
Total base damage: 10,400 / .686 = 15,160
Weaponskill damage from that: 4,760
Total Destroyers damage: 11,105 + 4,760 = 15,865
Total improvement with Destroyers: 4.7%
So now we know the possible range of improvement from the +crit rate of using Destroyers (1.8% - 4.7%). I want to add one more data set in a moderate range, fairly good gear (my own) with a 'typical' meat + minuet config.
My own case for Destroyers:
Lvl 82 GColibri:
Attack: 400 + 60 + 65 = 525
Defense: 327 - 10% (Dia II) = 295
cRatio = 1.43
Crit rate: 7% + 4% = 11%
Base punch damage: 57
Base kick damage: 39
Brutal earring
2 KA merits
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 14.5 kicks
Baseline:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit
Base damage: (186.9 * 1.43 * 57) + (23.1 * 2.43 * 57) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 19,305
w/Destroyers:
- punches: 35.7 crit, 174.3 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit
Destroyers damage: (174.3 * 1.43 * 57) + (35.7 * 2.43 * 57) + (12.905 * 1.43 * 39) + (1.595 * 2.43 * 39) = 20,023
Edit: New Melee/WS ratio. Ignoring Feather Tickle as a modifying factor.
Melee = (20*57) + (57 * (20 * .11%) * ((2.43/1.43)-1)) = 1,228
WS = 8 * (57+12) = 552
1190/(1190+544) = 69% (melee percentage)
Total base damage: 19,305 / .69 = 27,978
@weaponskill damage = 8,673
Total Destroyers damage: 20,023 + 8,673 = 28,696
Total improvement with Destroyers: 2.6%
So, any weapon that can improve damage by at least 2% relative to a d18/+48 weapon is worth looking into. At 3% it's at least as good as Destroyers in some typical XP settings. Any weapon that increases damage by 5% or better relative to a d18/+48 weapon is probably better than Destroyers.
So much for what we want to compare against. I'll put the other weapon comparisons in separate posts to make things a little more tidy. Quote: As requested, Spharai
For this I'm going to have to fudge the 'Triple Proc' damage a little as I don't have solid info on it. From a couple parses I have with a relic holder (not Spharai), I'm putting the proc rate at 7.5%, which is +15% to melee punch damage. I'm uncertain whether it can proc on weaponskill damage, but will treat it as if it does.
d23/+86, +20 attack
Using the three tiers outlined above for Destroyers:
Max Config (worst case):
cRatio is capped, +attack on Spharai would have no effect.
20% base crit rate + 4% (merits)
+7 fStr
Base punch damage = 35 + 23 + 8 = 66
Base kick damage = 42
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches (Brutal) + 17.5 kicks (5 KA merits)
- punches: 50.4 crit, 159.6 non-crit
- kicks: 4.2 crit, 13.3 non-crit
Melee Damage: (66 * 159.6 * 2.0) * 1.15 + (66 * 50.4 * 3.0) * 1.15 + (42 * 13.3 * 2.0) + (42 * 4.2 * 3.0) = 37,349.76
Assuming 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill, weaponskill damage: 12,449.92
Total damage: 49,799.68
Scaled for delay at 348/386: 44,897.12
Base d18/+48 total: 39,827.2
Difference: +12.7%
Moderate Config
Attack: 525 (base) + 20 = 545
Defense: 327 - 10% (Dia II) = 295
cRatio = 1.50
Crit rate: 7% + 4% (merits) = 11%
fStr: +4
Base melee damage: 35 + 23 + 4 = 62
Base kick damage: 39
[Note: kept the 2 KA merits to make sure it was directly comparable with the Destroyers sample.]
100 attack rounds = 200 punches + 10 DA punches + 14.5 kicks
Baseline:
- punches: 23.1 crit, 186.9 non-crit
- kicks: 1.595 crit, 12.905 non-crit
Melee Damage: (62 * 186.9 * 1.5) * 1.15 + (62 * 23.1 * 2.5) * 1.15 + (39 * 12.905 * 1.5) + (39 * 1.595 * 2.5) = 25,017
Assuming 75/25 split for melee/weaponskill, weaponskill damage: 8,339
Total damage: 33,356
Scaled for delay at 348/386: 30,072.25
Base d18/+48 total: 25,739.56
Difference: +16.8%
Conclusion: Spharai ends up being around 10%-13% better than Destroyers, which matches some old parses of Destroyers vs Spharai with party damage share of about 30% vs 33%, respectively.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-02-06 14:37:15
Would the faith Baghs still be better @ nin sub with just the Brutal for Double attack?
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:42:03
DA attack isn't like hate. The less DA you have to begin with, the more you have to gain from faiths. The gap would be larger on /nin than it would be on /war.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-02-06 14:45:03
Fairy.Vegetto said: DA attack isn't like hate. The less DA you have to begin with, the more you have to gain from faiths. The gap would be larger on /nin than it would be on /war.
Ah, I see.
I've never seen anyone use the Faith bagh's before. Definitely gonna give those a try though If I get my hands on them.
Edit: But saying that, I assume you have to keep the Stones in your ammo slot, Would you still be getting a damage increase by removing A tiphia sting, or in some examples a black tathlum?
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:46:59
Stones go very fast. I use destroyers for general purposes. I bust out the faiths anytime I want to do some competitive parsing.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:47:28
Yes, the diff is including ammo slot.
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-02-06 14:49:58
That's pretty damn awesome, you've opened my eyes on this, I was always taught it pretty much went
Spharai > Hades +1 > Destroyers.
Didn't even know the Faith's were even up there due to the low dmg and high delay.
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:53:23
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-02-06 14:55:30
Thanks for that, Very interesting read. Now I just need to find a shell doing sea gods... And those are extremely rare it seems >.>
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By Fairy.Vegetto 2010-02-06 14:59:00
Well faiths are 100% drop and torque is well it isn't. Chances are anyone who pops it has more faith baghs than they'd have care to obtained so you should be able to pick up a pair for free pretty easily.
Friend has ACC+8 delay-11% and additional effect light dmg+10 on his knuckles. so he NPC'd his broken destroyers bcuz he said he never used them after he got knuckles. Was he retarded?
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