Hello, Would You Be Willing To Help Settle A Bet?

Maybe.

Total DD, one of the best in the game!





-.- Really? It's called "Dancer" wtf you think it is?

Well sir based on the name and me being good at grammar I would deduce that it is a sumo wrestler.

LoL Agles
What are you? 12?

You`re in a forum, if you expect people to not discuss you`re better of going to yahoo answers or hell, google your own damn questions.
The forum is made of people who actually use your heads to play Expect more than a simple yes or no.

Here's a tip: Don't post it on a forum. If you wanted an answer, use the voting system IN GAME and poll your linkshell, not a bunch of people who don't give a flying *** about your little bet. Otherwise, quit QQing that people are actually giving you feedback. (Oh my gawd, what a HORRIBLE thing to do: GIVE FEEDBACK!)

And technically, you lost the bet, in my opinion. You asked simply if it was a DD, not if it was a GOOD DD. If you want to truly win a bet, ask a specific question next time, mmmkay?

I only finished lvling DRK to 75 last week. I was saying that in regards to DNC not DRK. And by no means am I saying its a cakewalk to do so. DNC weapon skill dmg was comparable and on average better (due to piercing bonus). Here is a rough outline of what I did:

- As much haste as you can possibly get in gear, I was at 21%. With haste you get from samba, haste spell, songs and adding in Sabre Dance you will look like you are using 100-fists for the entire party. You will be hitting so fast that the swinging animations will regularly skip. To get a good idea of what this is like, take your haste set into campaign, get a Spy's Drink (30% haste) from the campaign NPC and use it with your fully merited Haste Samba and Sabre Dance.

- Superb WS set to macro in. Most DNC's rarely WS so they are generally using their TP set when they do.

- Highest DMG daggers available. At the time I was using Azoth and Behemoth +1.

- Maxed merits for dagger, closed position, sabre dance, reverse flourish, no foot rise, and haste samba are absolutely needed.

- Playstyle is dramatically different. This means never using curing waltz on anyone (not even yourself) unless its an absolute emergency, not recasting utsusemi unless you're about to die, and eating expensive food like Pizza or Yellow Curry Buns (depending on songs) even though you know you're going to lose it.

So it can be done, I've done it. If you look at it from a logical point of view it makes sense. As Vegetto and others have pointed out the chances of finding a DNC who will go to this extreme is far and few between. Also, any DD jobs who are playing their own jobs with this much enthusiasm will obviously widen the gap by a large margin again. The only point I'm really trying to make is that with alot of work DNC can be turned into a respectable DD (at bird camp). Just being in 100-dagger mode in itself is a sight to see, and I've had many times in merits where the other DD's will say "WTF, how are you doing that??"

I sincerely hope when you said Hagun SAMs you weren't talking about GC merit DDs, because that's... not a good merit DD >.> Needs more polearm!

Even with trance a non 2hring rdm can cure more in that amount of time lol.

I beg to differ.

Yeah so while I'm sure those are great if you max merit them all you listed 3 different Tier2 dnc specific merits... all of which are greatly effect by the amount of merits you put into it

Closed position sucks in merits anyways, unless you can somehow get all the DDs to stand right on top of each other.

And again, dnc benefits less from adding haste buffs than other jobs.

Sorry I meant maxed merits for dagger specifically. The tier 2 merits you obviously can't max all of them, I personally only put 1 each into Sabre and Fan Dance and split the rest btw the other two.

Yea it can be a pain, but if the SAMs have Overwhelm merits it makes it easier to deal with.

Not necessarily. A dnc can hit capped gear haste and not all DDs are using hasso. Not to metion that depending on the amount of haste 50% double attack could beat hasso even considering its exponential nature. Mind you would have to fully merit saber dance

Compared to what? MNK? SAM? DRK? DRG? WAR? THF? Not even close.

DNC is a support job that uses TP, it's not a DD job.

Any pt that can't support a DD cannot be fulltiming hasso, and the pt has a dnc in it, the dnc needs to swap to heal mode, period. So fulltiming of hasso in any pt w/ a DD dnc is not even going to be a question.

As far as saber, even fully merited its not 50% (since drops the recast to 3 ins). Averages to 40

Even with zero percent haste, thats still a 40% increase in DoT from one job ability alone.

"Even with zero percent haste, thats still a 40% increase in DoT from one job ability alone."
Haste is totally independent from double attack. It's the same amount of increase whether you have 0% haste or whether you have 80% haste.

Edit: and it's a 38% increase though that's close enough to 40

What I meant was that comparing to a support DNC who is wearing full AF (no haste gear) and healing their party (and therefore not using Sabre Dance, since you can't use curing waltz while its up). Naturally the added benefits of double attack are the same whether you have haste or not, 40% is still 40%.

A no from me!

The reason I brought up healing to begin with is because someone said that not all DDs can fulltime hasso. IF that is the case, then you need to take saberdance down and contribute to healing. All the other DDs being able to fulltime hasso or mnks swapping from /nin to /war is going to outdo what you can contribute as a DD and the only time DD dnc should even be considered is if there is there is no problems with MP management and the RDM does not require assistance.

And again, technicality and such, but it's closer to 38% than it is 40, that is unless you don't plan on wearing a brutal earring.

True but generally speaking it will increase your attack rate by more than 10% haste. Also if we assume brutal earring your averaging more like 43.333 double attack.

Also how does 40% double attack only equate to a 38% increase in dot? 40% double attack litterally means every 100 attacks 40 of them will be double attack meaning you get 140 swings. Last time I checked 140/100 was 40% increase unless you were counting brutal

140/100 is yes a 40% increase

You're comparing no saber dance vs saber dance though.

Your BASE DA is 5% because of brutal. You will wear this whether you have saberdance up or not.

= 105

Adding saberdance gives you an average of +40 DA. This brings you to 145

145/105 = 38.09% increase

If you have any DA to start with, you gain less from adding more. Decreasing returns.

Meh whatever still close enough. In most xp situations saber dance will increase dot more then hasso.

Also you don't really gain less the more double attack you get. You gain exactly the same amount. It is just a smaller percentage. Well aside from double attack caps

Not really. w/o a dnc in the party, yes, you'd be right. WITH a dnc in the party, hasso will give more benefit.

Take my drg for example. 21% haste in gear on birds.

21 + 10 (hasso) + 10 (haste samba) + 15 (haste) +20 (double march) = 76% haste

10/(100-76) = 41.667% increase

My hitrate on drg is just about 90% w/o hasso. Hasso caps my acc, bringing me to 95%

5/90 = 5.555% increase

1.0555 x 1.41667 = = 1.495295 = 49.5295% increase

This is w/o even looking at the 1-2 fstr you get from the STR of hasso as well.

Hasso > saberdance

49% increase > 38% increase

I never said you gained less number of attacks. You gain less % of damage though, which was my point. Add more haste, you gain a higher % of damage, add more DA, gain less % of damage.

Actually that's a misnomenclature, double attack is an example of constant returns to scale (not decreasing returns):

When the base unit of input = x, the base output is = x

or

40% double attack = 40% increase in DoT

Saying its decreasing returns is like saying 30% DA = 30% increase in DoT, and 35% DA = 25% increase in DoT, which is not the case.

Assuming a RDM BRD DNC support at the least, SAM as DD's since it's been a topic! Average 5hit for polearm usu feet/walahra/swift/byakko's for haste, march/march/haste/max merited haste samba for haste support.
[ 1 / ( 1 – newhaste ) – 1 / ( 1 – oldhaste ) ] / [ 1 – ( 1 – oldhaste ) ]
[ 1 / ( 1 - 0.61 ) - 1 / ( 1 - 0.51 ) ] / [ 1 / (1 - 0.51 ) ]
[ 1 / ( 0.39 ) – 1 / ( 0.49 ) ] / [ ( 1 / ( 0.49 ) )
[ ( 2.6 ) – ( 2.0 ) ] / [ ( 2.0 ) )
[ ( 0.6 ) ] / [ ( 2.0 ) ]
[ ( 0.3 ) ]
30% increase per pt member using hasso.

Edit: fffff beat, did I do my math wrong somewhere veg? ><

Yes or No - most jobs aren't that easy to answer if it one category or another. Some evolve depending upon the level and Dancer is one of them. I have seen Dancer be DD in parties depending upon the other jobs, gear and skill level of the players in said party. Dancer can also support buff/support heal at the right level but again it depends on the amount of damage other party members are doing so they can maintain their tp level. At level 75 if geared properly and played by the right person Dancer is an amazing solo /tank job. If you ever get to see Reaperofsoul on Seraph play Dancer you will understand the range and ability of the job. Reaper has soloed and duoed many tough NM's in my presence. He also tanks Charby for my ls when I need him too. While he has other level 75 jobs Dancer is the one he takes the most pride in and knows far better then any other player I know. Proprs to Reaper and all the other people who aren't afraid of this amazing job SE gave us. ~.o

No, it's not constant returns. It's a constant number of attacks, yes, but the % of damage you gain is lower.

Let's say you have 0% DA. You swing 100 times for 1 damage each

Now you add 40% double attack

So instead of 100 attacks, you attack 140 times for 140 damage

You've done 140 damage instead of 100

140/100 = 40% increase.

Now let's say you ALREADY had 5% DA and go 100 attack rounds

105 damge

Now add 40% more DA, 145 total attacks, 145 damage

145/105 = 38.09% increase

Now, yes, 145/100 is a 45% increase over 0 DA when adding 45, but saberdance and brutal DO NOT come together. They are seperate.

This means when saberdance is down, you still have 5% DA. Yo udon't only put on brutal when saberdance is up, and then macro it out when saberdance is down.

We compare the old number to the new one.

The old number is 105 dmg, the new one is 145. The increase going from 1 to the other is 38.09%