Laphria Vs Hellheim

Id assume calad keeps pace just cause of constant odd/otd linked with torc spam. Drks on the slower end of tp gain so white dmg adds up to match the lower ws

It doesn't. White damage is like...20% of your damage, at best.

Also: Foenaria (talking St5 here) has 30% ODT, so it has similar white damage as well. So adding ~10% extra on 20% of your damage adds ~2% to your overall DPS. This isn't quite how the math maths, but either way...it's not a significant increase to your DPS.

When comparing 50% ODT to 0% ODT, sure it's not TOTALLY terrible, but comparing 30% ODT (which doesn't require an AM3 by the way) to 50% ODT, it's not going to make up for it.

That's my experience too as a Caladbolg DRK vs Foenaria DRKs in the same event with the same buffs. Origin is just better (they could have better gear/know how to gear better, but I don't think that would explain the gap in WS damage that can be easily eyeballed)

it sure isn't lol

Eyeball is not a good test. My WS avg during a recent Limbus run was 5k dmg higher as a Stage 4 Foenaria vs a Stage 5, but he had 25 more WS than me in Apollyon due to severe lag. He was also ML50 vs my ML34. Both Hoxne Ampulla and same gear/Nyame rank. Now, I probably was holding TP higher and maybe he was WSing at 1k for speed, so it could be any number of factors between the two that translates to the difference in damage. And this was comparing the same weapon and job. So with eyeballing Origin vs Torcleaver, it's not always going to be clearly obvious which WS is stronger just from looking at a log. From my personal experience, I haven't noticed a significant bump in damage between Origin and Torcleaver, but I would have to pay closer attention to it next time I use Caladbolg (which I rarely do anymore).

As another example of eyeballing and anecdotes, I've done a few Limbus runs with a Torcleaver DRK at I119 and he cannot 2shot any mob, ever, with 2 Torcleavers. Meanwhile, I always 2shot with 2 Origins (usually 1k and ~1600). This makes a significant difference in killspeed because 3 WS (or 2 WS and a ton of sitting around doing white damage) takes a hell of a lot longer than 2 WS.

If someone wants to put together some test data and share it, I'd love to see it, but IME Torcleaver's damage pales in comparison to Origin. I've been using Torcleaver for years and Origin is in another league.

I agree with this. Calad is still s strong option but Foenaria and Helhime seam to pull ahead pretty consistently. I dont get in the weeds technically like you guys do but comparisons in the parse on all 3 are consistently showing Helhime > Foenaria > Caladbold. Foenaria also consistently ranks behind helhime by a small but noticeable ammount as I think it should with Foenaria being such an epic utility weapon.

Definitely not saying Caladbolg isn't deserving of being in the conversation. Its still not vastly behind the primes in my experience but Torcleaver is alittle weaker and I think the lack of accuracy on it also dosent do it any favors in comparison.

No disagreement there. Would love to see some controlled tests.

Yeah. Wish it had some accuracy in its augments.

I was very set on making prime gs for my war, but this changed my mind immediately, brb making Lap

so I do have a question/comment about this. how does Laphria compare to chango and ukon? comparatively, how does helheim compare to war's strongest g-sword option? I have the stage 4 helheim, and I 'm loving the diversite it gives me. I also have chango and ukon, so I didn't feel it was as important to make another end game g-axe, or rather that the upgrade wouldn't be as much going from those compared to not having an end game g-sword for war.

Laphria and helhime will shred all other GA and GS options or war. B

Chango and Ukon would have exceptionally niche uses once you have Laphria. I put them both in storage.

I have to imagine that Laphria and Helheim occupy the same general spot in a WAR's kit, a 2h Naegling-dethroning slashing option that plays well in zerg and takes good advantage of skillchain opportunities. Notably, both Disaster and Fimbulvetr play nicely with Savage Blade, so if you pair up with a BRD or COR you can do some pretty sick work. Laphria offers break options, Helheim gives access to Shockwave.

In my experience, Chango is still the GOAT for WAR multi-stepping light solo but as Taint points out that's pretty niche. Ukon's ideal use-case is even more niche and sort of requires buy-in from a group to support it properly.

Unfortunately (for chango) i think it wins there too., My upheaval dmg is significantly higher with stage 5 Laphria and probably is making up for any loss in skillchain dmg.

Edit: I missed the solo part. There I would agree that chango wins.

The use cases I had in mind were mainly burning down GFNMs in low-man scenarios and sniping Ou with the ol' damage cap radiance. I haven't had much cause lately to try those out with Primes, I'd love to see how they fare.

The nice thing about both of the Primes available to WAR is that they can both be used for infinite multi-step level 1 SCs that you can then curtail up to Darkness at whatever your cap is, if you feel so inclined.

But basically with Laphria:

Disaster -> Steel Cyclone = Detonation, and after that you alternate them until SC window closes for infinite Scission/Detonation play. You may also do the endless Transifion <-> Compression if you opt into Keen Edge instead (opponent absorbs Earth or Wind)

With Helheim:

Fimbulvetr -> Resolution, Crescent Moon, or Hard Slash. and then alternate for endless Scission -> Detonation loop. Fimbulvetr -> Power Slash for the endless Transfixion <-> Compression loop.

Your WS damage with SC bonus from gear should be high enough that any level 1 closed with Prime WS starts to get up towards cap damage if you've got thicc buffs. Helheim is at advantage from getting to pair stronger WS in their infinite loop, but infinite loop is not something many people consider or execute. Disaster gives Great Axe the ability to single step Darkness by reversing order with Steel Cyclone -> Disaster, which has its place, sometimes.

Geas Fete NMs gonna get wrecked by either just standard spamming Prime WS. Since SC damage is first tied to WS damage, Primes kind of break the idea of enhanced SC damage aftermath. Since their WSes hit substantially harder than Aeonic, they'll produce similar SC numbers on top of higher WS number and higher white damage. The Aeonic SC is flashy and cool, and still has its place, but Primes just put it too shame (I wish they made Umbra or Radiance just so we could see the "new" animations independent of an aftermath tbh).

As a former Helheim S4 enjoyer, I still think the most fun I ever had on WAR was just watching big chunky white damage crits with Ukon. I know the dmg is suboptimal, but it's FUN.

I loved the heck out of my chango but I ended up doing the same. There isn't a single situation where I would want to use chango anymore. Laphria is like combining the best attributes of both chango and ukon. It's got white damage that's comparable to ukon, since it has the equivalent of empyrean aftermath 1 fulltime, and it skillchains like chango, just with darkness elements. It's not as good at either role than the alternative, but it's very close. When taken as a whole Laphria is so much stronger than every other G axe war can use that once you have it you never use anything else. The same goes for Helheim if you go that rout.

I haven't personally tested, but going on community testing I believe the prime ODT is ~30% and only procs on the first hit of a round, so I wouldn't say it's "equivalent". It's similar, but not close to equivalent IMO.

For the sake of simplicity looking at WAR with 100% DA, Ukon has 50% ODT and Laphria has effectively 15% (though a bit lower with TA/QA)

I said it has the equivalent of empyrean aftermath 1 full time. It's not as strong as Ukon's white damage, but it's comparable. The whole package makes it unmatched by any other G axe. Laphria is close to ukon's white damage, with skillchaining that's similar to chango's, and disaster is far and away the most powerful standalone G axe weaponskill. Put it all together and it's the best choice for a G axe. The alternatives aren't even close.

Sorry, missed the 1 and glazed right over it. Still, considering it only procs on the first hit of a round, the point stands. It's half as effective as empyrean AM1. Still not worthless, but definitely worth less and, I would argue, not comparable.

Bit like saying $1,000,000 is comparable to $500,000

Not trying to diss the gaxe, I think it's incredible. I just want to be clear that the main driver is a combination of the ODT, the skillchain properties, and (IMO) the incredible new WS. I think we need to be precise in how we speak about these things and want to make sure people aren't getting the (mistaken) impression that the white damage is similar between the two.

Just get all the ultimate great axes and dual wield them.

Don't forget prime AM. Its still not bringing it to Ukon levels but it adds up quick.

We did a LS segment run for fun, GA s5 vs GKT s5 and I ended up winning the parse with GA. Obviously there are tons of factors but the results were surprising.

I have s4 Laphria and s3 Helheim. For WAR, I would definitely go with Great Axe first. Great sword for WAR isnt bad, but it feels like there are less skillchain options. WAR does not get Torcleaver, leaving Resolution and Ground Strike as the alternate WS options. My current plan is to get a s4 Foenaria for my up-and-coming DRK before I worry about the s4 Helheim. At s3 on WAR, Helheim is only being used in Sortie (basically only for Leshonn and Gartell fights) and the rest of the time I am using Laphria. If I had the s4 Helheim, I probably still would prefer Laphria is nearly all situations.

Fimbulvetr feels like a nuke of a weapon skill, but there aren't really great second options WS for WAR, meaning you would be relying on the other DD to use other weapon skills to keep you off the wall (sortie basement bosses, etc). With that being said, Fimbulvetr spam gives distortion and darkness and feels good.

Laphria is what I use almost all of the time, except for when Naegling, Loxotic Mace +1, or Shining One is needed. My Chango has effectively been retired since I got the s4 Laphria. Generally speaking, the skillchain options on Laphria are better. I also like the Double Attack on Laphria, which opens up other equipment slots for other gears. Disaster is fun... sometimes it drops a bomb, sometimes it misses, and sometimes it hits for like 1800 damage. Regardless of the outcome, a disaster is always guaranteed.

I like Hellheim after seeing it referred to as Hellhime like it's hell's princess. Nothing to do with stats or usages.

General rule for any game. If there is a Great Axe weapon with a skill called Disaster, you get one.

Have you tried using Laphria in place of Naegling/Loxotic/Shining One in Sheol C? How does it perform comparatively against the various enemies there?


Fujito said last August that augmenting the primes is the next step, but for that happen we need content to utilize those augments. I think seeing Umbra/Radiance with Primes would be a really cool feature if Primes every get that augment.

I think a Great Axe that would do Level 4 darkness would seal the deal for me, for choosing Laphria. Maybe one day....

I'd rather they take another crack at relics before further boosting primes(like they said they were going to do at least WS wise...)

I don't remember this. Can you share when this was stated?

The picture checks