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Lionheart vs Epeolatry in Modern Era FFXI
 Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
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Posts: 1841
By Phoenix.Iocus 2025-02-28 08:25:05
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I imagine most people who are deciding between Epeo and Lionheart aren't considering their St4/5 Helheim...I'm sure it's possible, but I think assuming people have or are interested in picking up a prime is misguided. It should be more of a footnote than anything.
It's a bit like the GEO thread recently: which is best for Judgment spam? It would be really strange to say "well, get a Lorg Mor, it will do more damage!"
Yeah I'm going to have to disagree. The only point of Lionheart is DD. If your considering Lionheart at all then you'd want to consider Helheim, for SC properties and damage potential. OP expressed interest in a 'bonkers dps weapon' but realized the gear creep is the real reason you wouldn't want Lionheart in 2025. Helheim actually leans into the only DD gear RUN has gotten which is Nyame and even gives them access to some PDL in the AM because there is no good pieces for RUN other than TVR ring.
An aeonic clear vs a stage 3 is a completely different metric as far as effort goes. But after you spend your galli on important +3 empy armor, what you spend it on is up to you. It would be crazy if you spent it having fun instead of chasing a meta that doesn't get used for anything relevant. Even if it was a Lorg Mor.
My question is whether Lionheart is THE WORST Aeonic in 2025. It's a real contender, I'd put it in the very bottom tier with Sequence and Tri-Edge.
At least it can produce a decent Radiance, sequence is total poop and I assume Tri-Edge makes equally unimpressive ultimate skillchains
 Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2025-02-28 09:08:50
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I imagine most people who are deciding between Epeo and Lionheart aren't considering their St4/5 Helheim...I'm sure it's possible, but I think assuming people have or are interested in picking up a prime is misguided. It should be more of a footnote than anything.
It's a bit like the GEO thread recently: which is best for Judgment spam? It would be really strange to say "well, get a Lorg Mor, it will do more damage!"
Yeah I'm going to have to disagree. The only point of Lionheart is DD. If your considering Lionheart at all then you'd want to consider Helheim, for SC properties and damage potential. OP expressed interest in a 'bonkers dps weapon' but realized the gear creep is the real reason you wouldn't want Lionheart in 2025. Helheim actually leans into the only DD gear RUN has gotten which is Nyame and even gives them access to some PDL in the AM because there is no good pieces for RUN other than TVR ring.
An aeonic clear vs a stage 3 is a completely different metric as far as effort goes. But after you spend your galli on important +3 empy armor, what you spend it on is up to you. It would be crazy if you spent it having fun instead of chasing a meta that doesn't get used for anything relevant. Even if it was a Lorg Mor.
Still gonna disagree with this and the other comment suggesting the same. Not because the weapons aren't relevant to the job in question, sure a Helheim is clearly a replacement for Lionheart. Lorg Mor is also an excellent replacement for Magemasher+1 and literally all of the same things apply to it (it's great with Nyame, GEO has extremely few PDL weapons, etc.).
My problem with both is still the same: people have a shitload of things to spend their muffins on and telling them that the answer to their choice of "should I get an Ergon or an Aeonic?" is "get the prime weapon" is pretty silly to me. Especially so for the fact that for Helheim you need a St4, not a St3, to use it (since basically nobody is using DDRUN in Sortie).
I think, especially in this context, when someone is asking whether they should pay 35m or spend 3 hours getting a weapon, telling them to spend (at least) 2 months getting a prime weapon when you have no idea what their other needs are w/r/t muffins, is a very odd answer to the question.
I'll stick by my previous response. You can put Helheim as a footnote in the recommendations, but telling someone not to get an Aeonic which is extremely low-effort because they can invest a couple/few/several months getting a prime which is better (at the cost of getting ANY OTHER PRIME weapon or 8+ full sets of empy+3) is very strange. Assuming someone has 3.5m muffins to piss away on a weapon for DDRUN is an odd response when they ask about an Aeonic.
Should I get a Trishula? Why bother, just get Gae Buide instead.
Should I get an Apocalypse? Why bother, just get a Foenaria instead.
Should I get a Masamune? Why bother, just get a Kusanagi instead.
Should I get a Twashtar? Why bother, just get an Mpu Gandring instead.
Should I get a Gandiva? Why bother, just get a Pinaka instead.
...Congrats, now you've spent 25m muffins and you won't be able to build any empyrean armor for the next 2 years.
I think primes should be suggested as a "if you have the opportunity" and not an "obviously superior" option because of the opportunity cost associated with it, and the nature of FFXI (people playing many jobs).
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2025-02-28 09:28:46
I completely agree with your point generally.
Minor correction though. Lorg mor am is not pdl. It’s stupid cure potency.
I wasn’t advocating for helheim. Atorox78 made a claim that Epeo is better dps than helheim. I’ve got literally hundreds of millions of damage parses that have Epeo 5-10% below dps of lionheat. And lionheart is almost 25% behind helheim.
This is all where run actually has buffs
Server: Ragnarok
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By Ragnarok.Ragingmonkey 2025-02-28 09:47:27
I agree 100% with Maletaru. Galli is a long grind and people's "did you know prime weapons exist? that means all other weapons are poop" mentality is kinda wild. Resolution is really not in a bad spot, probably the best it's ever been since Aria exists now. Is RUN attack starved? yeah. Does Nyame prop up Epeo? sure. Can epeo make mutisteps? nah not really, but Lionheart can.
The best commentary on a weapon would be what it can and can't do, not how the prime blows it out of the water. I'd say go head and make your Lionheart if you want to be able to triple reso into a radiance SC and do some pretty good dmg while still being a RUN. Chango is better for sure, but Lionheart isn't "gather dust in mog house" bad.
Also worth noting that Helheim mostly makes Darkness skillchains, so it's the opposite side of the coin.
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By Asura.Helmaru 2025-02-28 09:55:35
I have S5 Helheim.
SV Aria and Embolden Temper spamming Resolution with Lionheart is not that far off. Resolution gets a massive boost under SV Aria.
I dont have a hard number though.
There is no reason to wear Epeo in sortie.
And to say that Epeo dps is comparable to lionheart in a fullbuff situation is just silly.
So yes, lionheart is very worth it.
Ragnarok.Nekonarf
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By Ragnarok.Nekonarf 2025-02-28 10:45:40
cope
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By Asura.Reidden 2025-02-28 10:50:16
Why not just get every weapon? Gotta catch em all!!!
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Ragnarok.Nekonarf
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By Ragnarok.Nekonarf 2025-02-28 10:59:57
nah see the numbers that I wont produce because of ddex reasons support that epeo is bad and you should never be found or caught dead wearing it. ever.
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By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2025-02-28 11:02:52
Ragnarok.Nekonarf said: »nah see the numbers that I wont produce because of ddex reasons support that epeo is bad and you should never be found or caught dead wearing it. ever.
Who is saying that?
Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2025-02-28 12:11:09
I agree with opinions here. Lionheart is lockstyle only. There is no reason to ever take off Epeo. It parses better then all other h)gs including stage 4 helhime for run (I have stage 4 helhime and epeo won in the little parsing ive fone with it). Wow really?? That is very impressive if Epeo is out parsing even the prime G sword Helheim on RUN. That sword is way out of my league currently, which is why I didn't bring it up at all. But with how they are the newest REMA type weapon SE added and with how difficult/super grindy the primes seem to be in aquiring them, I figured that Helheim would smoke Lionheart for sure regarding DPS and DD in general on RUN.
I know Epeo would still be the better tanking choice, but I figured Helheim would beat Epeo damage wise. That's very shocking to hear the opposite is the case, and makes me feel even better about putting the effort in to getting Epeo. Although I would imagine the stage 5 version of it would probably beat Epeo at that point. But I'm definitely going to try and get my Epeo R15 eventually to unlock it's full potential.
I would say whether it's worth making or not depends on what you play RUN to do.
I agree 100% that r15 Epeo is the way to go these days for most endgame groups, but if you also do solo stuff or non-tanking activities as RUN, Lionheart can be a lot of fun, even if it's technically behind R15 AM3 Epeo.
If your solo play is mostly as other jobs and you mainly use RUN for endgame tanking, then yeah, probably safe to skip LH. Yeah I mostly solo play in general or dual box. But when I do group content it's usually on either RUN or WHM, and sometimes SMN when it's useful for certain content. I would like to get my DD jobs into group content, but it's hard to land a DD slot most of the time for parties, at least for more modern end game. I haven't done really much soloing on RUN though aside from VE Ambu for fun and super easy trash mob stuff.
Since I do like soloing the older content a good bit, that was mainly why I wanted to mess around with seeing how RUN would do for that since it's more sturdy of a job than my other current leveled/geared jobs aside from probably WAR. That was what I was thinking about Lionheart originally how you mentioned it for solo stuff. If I didn't have Epeo I would have definitely gone for it. But I think like others mentioned with having Epeo it's probably not worth it anymore to get Lionheart like it used to be back in the day.
While people are giving the "correct" answer, Epeo over Lionheart for DPS, I think it's important to understand why.
Gear growth over the past four or five years has centered heavily on single high scaling WS's. With Temper RUN can get around ~50% DA on Reso (give take), making it average out six hits for 8~9 fTP at 85% STR, which is pretty good. Unfortunately it's all spread out making all that wonderful WSD we got kinda worthless, plus at -15% attack on a job not known for high attack. Dimidiation is around (2.812 + 1.0) fTP, 80% DEX with a +25% attack bonus along with a AM3 multi-attack making TP growth faster. You really should wait to 1500 TP to fire it off making it ~(3.9 + 1.0) http://fTP. Having that first hit scale makes all that WSD we've gotten lately actually do something while the +25% attack bonus makes any PDL more useful as well.
Now give Lionheart to WAR and all it's natural bonus's and abilities would just amplify it to absurd levels. Sakpata can be such a broken set of gear on some WS's.
Then there is Helheium with Fimbulvetr that gives another really strong one hit high fTP / high WSC WS.
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By Asura.Pergatory 2025-02-28 12:25:29
All I see is everyone saying all 3 greatswords are inferior to each other so they must all be bad. Clearly Naegling + Reikiko is the superior RUN DD choice.
By Godfry 2025-02-28 12:42:41
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »I completely agree with your point generally.
Minor correction though. Lorg mor am is not pdl. It’s stupid cure potency.
I wasn’t advocating for helheim. Atorox78 made a claim that Epeo is better dps than helheim. I’ve got literally hundreds of millions of damage parses that have Epeo 5-10% below dps of lionheat. And lionheart is almost 25% behind helheim.
This is all where run actually has buffs
I can come here 10 years later and the same people would still be using quotes dishonestly to win an argument against a point that was never made.
Nobody suggested Helheim (like shadow is saying) over Epeo or Lionheart. Helheim came into a DPS discussion. Pretty much everybody replying to this thread knows Helheim does not replace Epeo. The very second reply to the thread (from Kylo) even stated as much.
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Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2025-02-28 13:30:53
Lionheart isn't useless!
I used it in Cait Sith HTB just what feels like no more than 5 or 10 years ago.
Cait's melee attacks are magic damage so there's literally 0 physical in the whole fight, and the fight is generally over too fast to make Epeo AM3 outpace Lionheart.
So yeah. That's the one place I use it. The only place.
But it's not useless!
If we keeping it a bean, you can use RUN DD for this month's ambuscade and double as tank too. BLU or THF to remove spikes, then just go Ham with Reso after popping JAs Liement/OFA/Valiance/Battuta for hate and walk through Volt Strike spam.
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Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1841
By Phoenix.Iocus 2025-02-28 21:53:55
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »...Congrats, now you've spent 25m muffins and you won't be able to build any empyrean armor for the next 2 years. Jesus calm the hyperbole down.
Bahamut.Negan
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By Bahamut.Negan 2025-02-28 21:54:55
Jesus calm the hyperbole down. Jesus take the wheel
By Dodik 2025-03-01 09:06:12
All out of advil?
Bahamut.Senaki
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By Bahamut.Senaki 2025-03-01 20:27:33
I have both Lionheart and Epeo.
After the Resolution / multi-hit WS nerf, Lionheart has fallen off. Epeo is consistently better -- even more-so with Nyame WS damage.
I only use it for lockstyle. Trying to DPS with Epeo has given me better results than Lion. The only exception is if for some reason you need darkness skillchains.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2025-03-01 21:40:30
After the Resolution / multi-hit WS nerf
its time to bring this bug back.
Fenrir.Zenion
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By Fenrir.Zenion 2025-03-01 22:27:04
So now I'm curious. The whole thread seems to be reading "Lionheart is worthless because Nyame makes Epeolatry and Dimidiation awesome."
I'm just getting started on Rune Fencer, and one of the reasons I'm building it is because I want to eventually have it as a tanking option for Odyssey; ranked Nyame isn't an option for me right now.
If I want to do hybrid tank/DD on stuff before I get into Odyssey bosses, is Lionheart still useful at all, or is it outclassed even without support from Nyame r20+?
Carbuncle.Maletaru
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By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2025-03-01 22:59:23
I think it's likely you'll get (more) speculation and guesses.
I'd suggest putting your own gear into the simulator of your choice and see what you get with the buffs you think you'll have. The answer is highly situational and plenty of people are going by feels or eyeballing.
For my speculation, I think, especially on RUN and especially if you're trying to tank at the same time as doing damage, you really can't beat the AM3 from epeo. Most of the time, you'd end up with almost 500 extra TP from AM3 alone, so the 500 TP bonus is hardly even relevant, if at all.
I'd also argue that the tiny, if any, DPS increase you might gain from lionheart will never actually matter, because if you're a DD RUN, the content is already a total joke anyway.
I have a lionheart, it's R15, I've never hit an enemy with it.
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Bahamut.Senaki
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By Bahamut.Senaki 2025-03-01 23:02:40
So now I'm curious. The whole thread seems to be reading "Lionheart is worthless because Nyame makes Epeolatry and Dimidiation awesome."
I'm just getting started on Rune Fencer, and one of the reasons I'm building it is because I want to eventually have it as a tanking option for Odyssey; ranked Nyame isn't an option for me right now.
If I want to do hybrid tank/DD on stuff before I get into Odyssey bosses, is Lionheart still useful at all, or is it outclassed even without support from Nyame r20+?
Prior to Nyame, the multi-hit build for lionheart was Herc augments. Herc provides basically no defensive stats at all, so if you get hit wrong it’s ’Game Over’. While you can go this route for a multi hit built, you would find it expansive for poor returns on investment.
Assuming you don’t have Epeo or Lionheart, I wouldn’t even try DPSing on Run. At max buffs (Cor and Brd) is the only time you can really dps. I’ve mostly done it in Ambuscade during ‘easy months’ while also tanking. And even then, I’m rocking Epeo for the -dt.
I really cannot recommend trying to go hybrid DD on Run without Epeo / Nyame. If you’re a fresh run, focus on building Enmity and -DT sets first.
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Bahamut.Senaki
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By Bahamut.Senaki 2025-03-01 23:06:05
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »I have a lionheart, it's R15, I've never hit an enemy with it.
I only got Lionheart after the multi hit WS nerf. I used it one or two times and was left disappointed. I just use Epeo unless I need Savage Blade for some reason.
By Draylo 2025-03-02 00:09:27
There a lot of misinformation in this thread
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2025-03-02 00:27:08
I think the useful information was on page 1. Is Lionheart useful? Not really. Can it be used? Perhaps. In exceptionally niche circumstances.
Should the OP get Lionheart over other options? I wouldn't advise it. Chango is a better option. And he has other jobs that could make use of their Aeonics far more than his Rune Fencer would use Lionheart. He could just collect 'em all. Or he could just get the most useful and not worry.
The question was answered. Bringing prime weapons in to this is pointless. Saying OP should make Lionheart because it is useful in one situation is pointless. The weapon just isn't that good these days. Not unless you know exactly when and where to use it, and most players aren't going to experiment enough to know that.
By Hovann 2025-03-02 02:12:28
I was reading Buukki's comment about how Lionheart should of had WAR/DRK on it, and it got me thinking regarding RUN's repertoire as a whole.
Epeo's been said and done. But then you have other situational pieces:
Peord/Morgelai Path C is a glorified Regen+/Vivi Pulse macro piece. Even self-targeting yourself you can get 100+/tick thanks in conjunction to Taean pieces and the Sortie Earring.
Aettir still has +70 Magic Evasion compared to the Epeo if need be.
Lycurgos is a Great Axe. Armor Break is accessible, and you have Fell Cleave to mess around with.
Hepatizon Axe if you want Full Break.
The Dolichenus is useful for Ongo with Ruinator (technically you can also do this with GAxe Steel Cyclone but Ruinator seems to be more reliable.)
There's others like the Reikiko's Regain/TP Denial with Stoneskin, Agwu Claymore for its MDB+5, Malignance Sword if you want to be fancy with a Resist build.
What do all the above weapons have in common?
None of them require a RUN to have access to damage boosting abilities.
Now I wasn't around when Lionheart had debuted, but the way I see it is that SE designed it long ago as a "alternative playstyle" to RUN while also being able to close a lv4 skillchain. Due to the broader scope of gear, powercreep, ingame changes, and weapon availability, that idea has shifted away. Had the weapon been made more job available then it would be a different story. . . and yes, Helheim does exist, but even that has its own pros and cons to RUN, WAR, DRK and PLD compared to its other weapons, as well as having different skillchain properties.
Phoenix.Iocus
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By Phoenix.Iocus 2025-03-02 11:59:09
Peord/Morgelai Path C is a glorified Regen+/Vivi Pulse macro piece. Even self-targeting yourself you can get 100+/tick thanks in conjunction to Taean pieces and the Sortie Earring. And is such a fun toy!
I will echo that hybrid dps/tanking is hard unless it is a battuta scenario for newer RUNs. Regardless of my advocacy for Helheim, I will fully endorse that there is only 1 GREATsword and that is Epeo. The rest are okswords. The weapon I used most often after Epeo is the ambu axe for armor break.
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By Lili 2025-03-02 15:55:26
https://www.bg-wiki.com/ffxi/Category:Aeonic_Weapons
Quote: Aeonic Weapons are a series of powerful high-damage and low-delay weapons created via defeating some of the strongest Notorious Monsters in the game, offering Relic-equivalent weapons to Seekers of Adoulin jobs.
And like most Relic weapons, both Lionheart and Tishtrya are entirely useless in 2025.
How consistent of SE.
By Nariont 2025-03-02 16:02:21
Relic weapons had some uniqueness(some of them anyway) while aeonics were just dmg sticks, stp+10(or OA+30) and tp bonus+500 so would say that is selling relics a little short
I've been doing a lot of research online from both past threads on here and other sites like BGwiki and some threads on the official SE XI forums about the usefulness of Lionheart for RUN in 2025. I know in the past it was considered a pretty bonkers DD weapon for the job if buffed properly for Resolution spam. However most of the info I found for it was from between 2016 to 2019 and not a whole lot recently on it.
There's 3 main factors I was taking into consideration for whether or not it would be worth getting the Lionheart at this point for my RUN. First is I already have Epeolatry at the afterglow (III) version but without any Oboro augments yet. I noticed Epeo gets a much bigger DPS boost with R15 augments than Lionheart does. With Epeo going from around 37.4 to 42.2 DPS, where as Lionheart only goes from 42 to 44 DPS at R15.
Second is the amount of gear creep we have seen since the 2016 to 2019 era, since Odyssey and Sortie have really made a big difference with gear choices since then. Especially in the case of WSD on Nyame, which seems to favor Dimidation a lot more than it would Resolution.
Third is with or without having party support buffs and which WS would be better to use overall in an non-buffed/not attack capped scenario. If I wanted to do some solo content on RUN with trusts like Easy or Normal Ambuscade or some HTMB where I'm not buffed aside from trusts support buffs, would having the Lionheart make Resolution more powerful than Dimidation with Epeo in uncapped attack/non-buffed situations if you also factor in the Nyame and other modern era gear creep as well? Likewise in modern day full party support/buff situations, does Epeo Dim seem to do better now than Lionheart Reso or vice versa?
Back in the day it sounded like Reso was much better than Dim from what I had read in older posts. But I would assume that might have changed since then, plus I saw that Reso has that attack penalty and Dim can also make self light SC more efficiently with Epeo aftermath. Not to mention Epeo is obviously superior taking weapon, however I would like to try and experiment with some older 119 era content with my RUN solo outside of when I'm main tanking in a full party.
So my main TLDR questions are:
1) is Lionheart still worth obtaining in 2025 with the new gear creep and if someone already has Epeolatry upgraded to either afterglow or R15? I would assume without Epeo then Lionheart would still be worth it compared to non REMA options. At least for DD/lower end content potential and not so much in higher end more difficult NM tanking scenarios. I would probably use Aettir for high end tanking if I didn't have Epeo.
2) Is Dim or Reso the more powerful WS option in under buffed/not attack capped situations and same question for fully buffed situations as well?
3) Will Reso with Lionheart out perform Dim with Epeo in modern day with the new gear creep or vice versa?
I'm mainly trying to figure out if it's still worth it for me or any RUN in general to get the Lionheart in modern era FFXI or just stick with Epeo full time. Thanks for taking the time to read this for those who do, I appreciate any advice and insight on this topic.
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