20 Years After The Fall Of The Berlin Wall And I Think We're Finally Ready To Cast Off Capitalism.

Crap system is crap.

Gogo first-comment derail!

no u

What does the Berlin wall have to do with capitalism? It was just 2 enemy nations and one decided to build a wall. Also better read on how the wall fell; it was a communication missunderstanding, some guards opened a checkpoint and all others thought the "wall is down" and took it down...

Capitalism > "equality" since some of us are more equal than others.

Lol, you're German and you don't know? The fall of the Berlin wall marks the end of the cold war.

The western and eastern blocs represented western Europe and the communist bloc.

Learn your nations own history.

Although I enjoy the topics of you're threads, but this is a video game forum and you really need to stop baiting everyone.

How can I bait anyone with this topic? Honestly, if you're not interested in talking about it you can choose not to post and it will die anyways.

I just think people are sick of the incredibly outdated, inhuman capitalistic society we live in.

I remember watching that on T.V. Those people seemed so happy. Only the private sector is capitalist these days. Government is well on its way to becoming social. Like Michael Moore pointed out, we have the post office, social security, welfare, public schools and soon universal health care. I live in a red state and the people here are always moaning, bitching and complaining about what the democrats are doing. I'm not sure if I totally agree with them yet. I have the feeling like I'm giving something up that they aren't telling me about. THEN BAM they're sucking out my brain fluids (If there is such a thing!)

some people are born in gang/drug riddled ghettos, and some people are born in white picket fenced suburbia. your absolutely correct!
boo poor people that arent even real people or matter.
go capitalists!

Yeah, we see what capitalism does, alright.

The people on top of a company get millions of dollars on bonuses for being the main hand in bringing down the company, while the middle class hard workers get layed off without a penny.

ok.

Yeah, how can you bait somebody who's all for captialism and is the most hated person on this forum.

Lets hear your reasoning behind your hatred of captialism.

BBL for classes.

hey, he had to keep the people in East Berlin somehow. Same thing America is trying to do today by building that wall along the Mexican border.

olawd guess ffxiah has its very own political troll now

this is going to fill up korpgs schedule for a while

Haha, I don't think we're ready to give up capitalism.

It might be the case where we ain't got no choice!

I'm personally not ready to give up capitalism for the shear fact that if a socialist or anything other type of party tries to overthrow our government in an attempt to change our system, it'd result in a civil war. you can agree or disagree but it doesn't change the fact that if we tried to change our type of government there are people who will fight to change it and people that will fight to keep i t the same...

take a look at the American Civil War from 1861-1865, and no it didn't start because of slavery. I really don't want to see another war on our soil... especially with some of the weapons the United States has come up with in the last 100+ years >.>

I've had enough people lost from wars in my family to want to change governments. Grandfather I never met in WWII, Uncle in Vietnam, another Uncle in Desert Storm, and right now I have a very close friend in Afghanistan and another in Iraq.

So I guess my position would be no, I'm not ready for a change.

EDIT: and just to add i suppose, I'm not one of those that are making big bucks or living the high life, I'm making 14 bucks an hour in a dusty warehouse and my wife is about to lose her job.

But you know what, capitalism gives us the right to be free to choose how we make our money and how much. It follows along with the American Dream.... it's just that, a dream... We can dream endlessly and make our lives whatever we want, we have that right.

Take away Capatalism, you'll see our rights as free people of the modern world vanish over time. Is that not worth having?

(sorry for the rant, bored I guess)

Pure capitalism doesn't work (and afaik has never existed), pure communism doesn't work (has been tried a few times, and always fails to remain 'pure').

Everything has to be some form of middle ground.

People need to be rewarded more the harder they work, as this encourages the country to grow and will drive 'human advancement' (to a point).

People also need to be supported when it all goes wrong (lose their job, become unable to work), as this allows the country to improve the quality of life for all its residences and give the next generation (born into the poor families) the chance to go out and work, so they can be productive in the future.

People argue over there is a suitable middle ground. see: USA thinking of implementing additional state funded health care for poorer families.

Im really wondering why you dont show your nation.

If this is the best you got... Remember capitalism provides us with all the luxuries, that if the government had control of surely wouldn't want to pay to keep going. Trust me, if it was that easy, we would all be millionares.

Time for my Mathematical Economics class or I would feed the troll more.

Profitability remains the only primary goal in a capitalistic environment. Employees are sheep that are compensated ONLY as much to improve productivity.

If you see merit in such a materialistic system, that's fine.

It is human nature to be driven by rewards,

See Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it describes what people need to be fulfilled in life.

Some of the items on the list are 'ticked' in a materialistic/capitalist world, and other items are 'ticked' by a socialist/communist worlds.

True capitalism offers every little in regard to the safety section of the hierarchy (level 2), but can offer some of the items on higher sections.

Ture communism offers every little in regard to the esteem section (every one is equal, means no one is doing well) (level 4), but does cover a lot of the lower levels.

Which is why there needs to be some form of balance. Things such as employment law is put in place in a capitalist society in order for people to feel more secure in their jobs (thus allowing them to achieve level 2 and move on).

And you think the government is any better? Look at how they control taxes, welfare, and any of their public systems. The government is the worst when it comes to treating people like numbers.
Taxes are a decent example. When was the last time you had a tax collector come to your house and make personal contact with you before they took your money? They don't care what happened to you during the year, only the money you owe.

You are just another number to everyone, regardless if it is gov't, corporations, or even a complete stranger down the street from you.

That's exactly why the soviets won the cold war.

Here's the problem we see with people who see Captialism as only rewarding those who are powerful. That is not true. Captialism rewards effort, you can't become rich without busting your *** doing SOMETHING that benifits EVERYONE.

Bill Gates didn't become rich by doing nothing.

Neither did Warren Buffett

Nor Lawrence Ellison.

Ask Theo Albrecht how he got his money.

You don't get rewarded for doing nothing (like you would in a socialist society, which I think is the point of your thread). Effort = rewards.

You could argue about the Walton Family, and how they became rich because of birth, but here's the thing. Their effort also equals rewards. They are squandering their wealth, and are slowly losing their money. They aren't sustaining their wealth, so they are losing it to those who work hard and profit from it.

Capitalism is the basis of today's society, regardless if you like it or not. It will be here for a very long time until a better system is proven to be more effective than it. Thats the natural order of things.

idc rate us down but quite right korpg

I think one of the issues isn't that people are getting what they don't deserve, but that people aren't getting what they deserve. In other words, there are people out there who work JUST as hard or even harder than some wealthy people for a fraction of their income.

Kind of like what Argettio said:


The sad fact of the matter is, life isn't fair (DURRRRR), and in reality, people are overpaid for doing nothing but look pretty, others are underpaid for saving lives; people take advantage of systems whose goal is to help those who are truly in need, and those truly in need are overlooked simply because the system is flawed due to the sheer number of people who make use of the system. And that's all I can think of before my morning coffee. *Sips*

At any rate, Korpg has a point: there really isn't any other developed system out there that has worked better than capitalism. It's much easier to point out the flaws (like I just did) than to point out the advantages. We all say we seek equality in society, but when it comes down to a governmental system that preaches equality but acts otherwise, it just goes to show how much human nature is so fallen that we tend to use each other as rungs on the ladder to fulfilling our desires.

BUT I LOVE YOU GUYS <3

And I think that sip of coffee did something. What'd I just write?

Man, if you think that is bad, you should try going to a country where the state runs everything and doesn't regulate labor practices at all. In a great, wonderful country like, say China, things are so much better for the middle class. I bet you'd love to be a textile worker in Southeast Asia! Hell, you could become a RMT!

Sadly, as long as there are humans there will be manipulation and exploitation of people by other people. The great socialist experiment which was the Soviet Union, or the Chinese Cultural Revolution, demonstrate this perfectly. You might think that socialism is about you and your equality with all others. However, the reality of this is that Socialism is nothing more than an equalizing of experience based upon the ideals and vision of... wait for it... the powerful! Its a scam! Lenin didn't give two shiats about the proletariat. Mao was too busy poking pre-teen girls to care about equality for the masses.

If I am going to be manipulated by the powerful, which I've already stated is an unavoidable reality of the human experience, I want the greatest possible illusion of freedom I can find. Capitalism and Republican Democracy is that best possible illusion.

To Anye: Yes, its unfair that those who get overpaid for doing nothing but look pretty or shoot basketballs into hoops, but since its a very hard industry(s) to enter, the rewards of being on top equals their pay (I still say tone it down though, its not ok for people to get paid 10 million dollars to make a 70 minute bad movie).

Since they have to work their *** off to become the best (I don't know the numbers, but I think its safe to say that only .15% of the world's sports figures make 90% of the world's sports salaries) shouldn't the get rewarded likewise?

And you have to figure that most of the high prices are driven more by ego than talent. You have to have the 60 million dollar figure for Shaq, although he is just a lump on the middle of the lane who can't hit free throws to save his life. Its ego, since he brings the revenue into the team. Likewise with corporations. GM had to have the highest paid CEO just to say it has the highest paid CEO, but that doesn't mean he is worth it (not to go against Ed Whitcare, who is speaking at my school tomorrow evening, which I'm looking VERY forward to his speach). Its all basically ego.

@Raef: Yes, being controlled exists, and by working FOR somebody you WILL be manipulated. But do you honestly think that you can do their job as well or better than them?

Cause if you can, go run for President. I can name about 50 people who can do a much better job than Obama, but I have to give him respect in the fact that he is running a nation, one of which has a bunch of whiners in it who wants their way and to hell with anyone who doesn't 100% agree with him (you reading this Nancy Peloski?). I wouldn't run for it, but I would accept the offer to be president if it happens, because I personally think I could do a great job (without killing everyone in the process at least).

Long story short, either be controlled or be the controller. You don't like it? Tough, thats human nature. Just remember that if you want to be the controller, you will never do a good job without having some leadership experience.

everything is crap, all the -isms suck, too.

Ideals/values/whatever aren't the problem; the only constant amongst all of these is that people will *** up whatever they get their hands on.