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Most Worthless Moves In FFXI?
 Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2961
By Ragnarok.Martel 2024-10-09 07:23:34
Hard disagree. Swipe is used a lot for magic burst Sortie strategies. It's an easy 15k+ dmg, if geared right. I did a quick search of my logs, and here are the highest Swipes I've done on Sortie Basement bosses. Code [19:49:35]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Triboulex takes 89666 points of damage.
[20:36:08]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Dhartok takes 80560 points of damage.
[20:04:37]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Gartell takes 76872 points of damage.
[19:38:40]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Aita takes 73975 points of damage. These are the record high damage values, so of course, My averages wouldn't be nearly so good. The damage is massively affected by how badly you get nukewalled. Manage to slip it in there between vollies just right, and the dmg can be pretty high.
The really frustrating thing about Swipe and lunge is the recast. Well, and the rune maintenance. You're only getting one set per sortie boss unless things go very wrong.
Bahamut.Senaki
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 122
By Bahamut.Senaki 2024-10-09 08:12:10
Hard disagree. Swipe is used a lot for magic burst Sortie strategies. It's an easy 15k+ dmg, if geared right. I did a quick search of my logs, and here are the highest Swipes I've done on Sortie Basement bosses. Code [19:49:35]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Triboulex takes 89666 points of damage.
[20:36:08]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Dhartok takes 80560 points of damage.
[20:04:37]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Gartell takes 76872 points of damage.
[19:38:40]Martel uses Swipe.Magic Burst! Aita takes 73975 points of damage. These are the record high damage values, so of course, My averages wouldn't be nearly so good. The damage is massively affected by how badly you get nukewalled. Manage to slip it in there between vollies just right, and the dmg can be pretty high.
The really frustrating thing about Swipe and lunge is the recast. Well, and the rune maintenance. You're only getting one set per sortie boss unless things go very wrong.
Would Lunge do higher on-average MBs?
By Nariont 2024-10-09 08:23:44
Well, and the rune maintenance.
That's largely what made me stop doing them altogether bar the occasional swipe, though i never did mage strat sortie on RUN so would be more inclined to do there, the animation delay plus the time to get runes back up(not a big deal for swipe, sucks for lunge/rayke if you're going from 3 -> 0)
They're great magic spikes, just annoying as far as upkeep goes for runes, more JAs coulda used the maneuver QoL that dropped the animation delay.
Would Lunge do higher on-average MBs?
Swipes just 1/3rd a lunge iirc so yeah, they'd easily cap dmg
By Mavii 2024-10-09 08:33:01
I'd be willing to add Self-Destruct to this, because of what Shichishto said. Are there any practical uses for it in any content? Self-Destruct is part of the optimal Auto-Refresh set up til 74. For that alone I'd put it (barely) over Final Sting in utility, which gave us Zanshin one level cap increase after BLU got access to native DW.
That said I've at least cast both for more than trying to figure out what the hell they do + set SD while leveling back at 75 cap. SD gives you a way to trigger Weakness without dying, and Final Sting is a quick and dirty way of lowering HP for cure tests etc. That's it though, neither has ever been useful for content.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 12:19:43
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's
9. Absorb-CHR
10. Aspir Samba
11. Odin
12. Astral Flow Blood Pacts
(minus Clarsach Call, Altana's Favor & Perfect Defense)
13. Level ? Holy
14. Brave Hero Glenn
I'm not going to add those BLU spells as they can be used for something on the way up. Also I recall reading somebody has found a use for Choral Roll for Sheol Gaol, so have removed that.
I am not convinced that Assassin's or Warrior's Charge is worthwhile in any scenario. They require merits that should otherwise be put in to something more useful.
And as a Rune Fencer who has done mage setups in Sortie, Swipe and Lunge are awesome when you have the time to do it. Survival obviously comes first, but if you feel safe enough you can add to damage pretty well.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 12:23:36
12. Astral Flow Blood Pacts (minus Clarsach Call)
Also Altana's Favor and Perfect Defense.
Is the list meant to be a meme? Because I think listing individual spells or pets is going to make this list a million miles long.
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Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 12:29:03
Not exactly. BSTs have pointed to Brave Hero Glenn as the worst pet, and I pointed at Absorb-CHR as the most worthless spell for Dark Knights. No one has disputed either of their inclusions. Also, there has already been discussion about lower tier spells and how most of them can't be included. Many of them have use as players level up.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 12:43:52
His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et.
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 12:51:31
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et.
Ehh. I guess. Both exceptionally niche circumstances that isn't really changing much if you didn't use them.
 Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 12:55:23
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et. Why are you using anything other than requiem, threnody and nocturne to debuff Taxet??
They dont get removed.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 12:57:53
There are dozens of blue magic spells that are practically useless. Spells with no trait, a trait nobody ever sets, or their only value is 1-3 of a single stat. Nobody would ever set these spells in any realistic scenario but you could just claim "you could cast it on a mob" at that level, despite the fact that nobody ever did.
From levels 18-50 everyone spams Bludgeon, are we going to claim that Claw Cyclone is good because it gives Lizard Killer?
Who's using Poison Breath? For Clear Mind traits? For poisoning enemies? Why?
Has anyone ever cast Bomb Toss for damage? Is someone setting it for the 2 STR?
How about Venom Shell?
I could go on forever. There are TONS of blue magic spells with no practical use.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 12:59:17
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et. Why are you using anything other than requiem, threnody and nocturne to debuff Taxet??
They dont get removed.
More debuffs remove more DT every use of Exuviation, so you want to (in some strategy) pile on as many debuffs as possible, to get his DT down as fast as possible.
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 13:02:26
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »There are dozens of blue magic spells that are practically useless. Spells with no trait, a trait nobody ever sets, or their only value is 1-3 of a single stat. Nobody would ever set these spells in any realistic scenario but you could just claim "you could cast it on a mob" at that level, despite the fact that nobody ever did.
From levels 18-50 everyone spams Bludgeon, are we going to claim that Claw Cyclone is good because it gives Lizard Killer?
Who's using Poison Breath? For Clear Mind traits? For poisoning enemies? Why?
Has anyone ever cast Bomb Toss for damage? Is someone setting it for the 2 STR?
How about Venom Shell?
I could go on forever. There are TONS of blue magic spells with no practical use.
I used Bomb toss in Dynamis wave 3 to pull on RUN/BLU. But yeah, I'm fine with people debating whatever spells. There could be a lot, but I am sure it can be narrowed down to a few that are super bad.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:04:57
If we're including spells:
When was the last time you saw literally anyone cast Cura II? Full-cure? Boost-CHR?
What's the use case for Gain-CHR? RDM using Dancing Edge?
All the BRD status ailment resistance spells.
Deodorize. It has a use, but nobody has ever actually used it for that.
All the Enspell IIs
Blaze spikes isn't worth the MP it takes to cast it.
By Tarage 2024-10-09 13:09:56
For the most part, CHR is worthless.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:09:58
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »There are dozens of blue magic spells that are practically useless. Spells with no trait, a trait nobody ever sets, or their only value is 1-3 of a single stat. Nobody would ever set these spells in any realistic scenario but you could just claim "you could cast it on a mob" at that level, despite the fact that nobody ever did.
From levels 18-50 everyone spams Bludgeon, are we going to claim that Claw Cyclone is good because it gives Lizard Killer?
Who's using Poison Breath? For Clear Mind traits? For poisoning enemies? Why?
Has anyone ever cast Bomb Toss for damage? Is someone setting it for the 2 STR?
How about Venom Shell?
I could go on forever. There are TONS of blue magic spells with no practical use.
I used Bomb toss in Dynamis wave 3 to pull on RUN/BLU. But yeah, I'm fine with people debating whatever spells. There could be a lot, but I am sure it can be narrowed down to a few that are super bad.
Cursed Sphere has a lower cast time, recast time, costs fewer set points, costs less MP, and is available at a lower level.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 13:16:03
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et. Why are you using anything other than requiem, threnody and nocturne to debuff Taxet??
They dont get removed.
More debuffs remove more DT every use of Exuviation, so you want to (in some strategy) pile on as many debuffs as possible, to get his DT down as fast as possible.
Thats an edit according to SpicyRyan with no data cited to support it, so I dont trust it.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:21:02
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »His broth is incredibly cheap (basically free) to make and he's an ilvl aquan for Killer Instinct.
Absorb-CHR can be used by DRK on Glassy Thinker to stack debuffs if you don't have a Crep or Twilight Cloak. Or any other thing you're trying to debuff, like Tax'et. Why are you using anything other than requiem, threnody and nocturne to debuff Taxet??
They dont get removed.
More debuffs remove more DT every use of Exuviation, so you want to (in some strategy) pile on as many debuffs as possible, to get his DT down as fast as possible.
Thats an edit according to SpicyRyan with no data cited to support it, so I dont trust it.
Not sure if you're memeing but it's obvious to people who have fought Tax'et a bunch. I've done a lot of bee delve for mats and it's clear when you're applying a bunch of debuffs how much faster it takes damage vs when you just do a couple debuffs. I also fight Tax'et quite a lot outside of Delve for trials. Sometimes my WS (giving a debuff) will cause it to Exuviation, but it only SLOWLY loses DT because it's only a debuff or two at a time. When you stack a shitload of debuffs its DT absolutely flies down.
Not saying there are loads of people with 4 DRKs trying to kill Tax'et as fast as possible, but...how many people are level 40 BLU trying to set Plantoid Killer?
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 13:33:13
Its HP also flies down when its not restoring HP and you dont have to keep on top of re-spamming debuffs on it.
Minimal effort for the exact same result.
By Tarage 2024-10-09 13:38:39
Thats an edit according to SpicyRyan with no data cited to support it, so I dont trust it.
Random aside but I find it *** hilarious that that guy threw his ***tantrum about "not being wanted by the community" and how he wasn't ever going to contribute again, only to continue editing as if nothing happened. What an absolute *** tool he is.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:41:13
It starts with 99% DT, so that's not true at all. You need to debuff it at least somewhat to get it to take any damage, even from ilvl characters. The more debuffs you use, the faster it will be killable.
Eventually (maybe) it makes sense to stop debuffing it, but a key part of any strategy to kill Tax'et involves piling on a ton of debuffs.
In fact, I'd argue that the more debuffs the better, because then you're getting more bang for your Exuviation.
Putting together a list of effectively-useless BLU spells, should be done soonish. It's a very long list.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 13:45:03
When you have six people meleeing it, it gets tp quick. Its doing another exuviation before you can get dia back on.
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Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2850
By Shiva.Thorny 2024-10-09 13:50:57
When it was still relatively new, I only used songx3 and dia2 and it was still dying in under a minute, which would be a max of about 8 tp moves(*4 = -32% DT?). I cannot conclusively say that more debuffs does not result in a greater DT reduction per use of exuviation, but I don't think the 1% per debuff number is correct.
Granted, this is based on anecdotal evidence from quite a few years ago, so grain of salt
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Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 13:51:07
Anyways this is moot because Ceizak is by far the slowest and most annoying because of the Gnat. You shouldnt ever enter Ceizak more than once.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:53:32
I'm sure I forgot about some extremely niche use for some of these, but IMO these spells are all either entirely useless or so incredibly niche that setting them or casting them is just being inefficient for the sake of fun.
Power Attack
Helldive
Blood Drain
Claw Cyclone
Poison Breath
Bomb Toss
Smite of Rage
Digest
Jet Stream
MP Drainkiss
Venom Shell
Mandibular Bite
Awful Eye
Blood Saber
Flying Hip Press
Spiral Spin
Seedspray
1000 Needles
Body Slam
Hydro Shot
Corrosive Ooze
Warm-Up
Ram Charge
Final Sting
Vapor Spray
Thunder Breath
Pyric Bulwark
Bloodrake
Foul Waters
Blistering Roar
Crashing Thunder
Sweeping Gauge
Nectarous Deluge
Palling Salvo
Cesspool
Add these to your list, or someone come defend the time they set one of these killer traits instead of something actually useful.
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Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 13:56:44
Anyways this is moot because Ceizak is by far the slowest and most annoying because of the Gnat. You shouldnt ever enter Ceizak more than once.
I kill the Gnat with a single WS + SC so he takes probably 5 seconds. Tax'et is a little longer because of the need to put debuffs on but still reasonably fast. Ceizak is quite fast and if you need Crests and Rostrums, at least twice as rewarding per run as other zones (using plasm to buy the mats you need), unless you're 6boxing or something.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4089
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2024-10-09 14:06:16
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »unless you're 6boxing or something. 
Shared currency that doesnt scale, why would you not bring more in? (Inb4 leo pointing gif about how this is why sheol and sortie arent alliances permissible)
im in and out of yorc in 6 min, none of these are difficult and the pressing point is “how much of a nuisance are the mobs in the area”
Gnats variable dt falls very high on the nuisance scale for me.
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 14:12:10
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »If we're including spells:
When was the last time you saw literally anyone cast Cura II? Full-cure? Boost-CHR?
What's the use case for Gain-CHR? RDM using Dancing Edge?
All the BRD status ailment resistance spells.
Deodorize. It has a use, but nobody has ever actually used it for that.
All the Enspell IIs
Blaze spikes isn't worth the MP it takes to cast it.
All the CHR spells could go in there, along with the rest you said except for Dancing Edge, because this isn't about being job specific. Dancing Edge is great on Thief until you get Evisceration and Rudra's Storm, which are locked behind quests.
Also I'm not sure about Cursed Sphere being better than Bomb Toss for pulling the fomor. I can't find a range. Bomb Toss was used because you can pull from over 13 yalms, so I would use that and then follow up with other moves.
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2676
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-10-09 14:18:00
All the CHR spells could go in there, along with the rest you said except for Dancing Edge, because this isn't about being job specific. Dancing Edge is great on Thief until you get Evisceration and Rudra's Storm, which are locked behind quests.
I didn't say DE was useless, I said Gain-CHR was useless unless you're going to use DE on RDM (a joke).
Cerberus.Kylos
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 4473
By Cerberus.Kylos 2024-10-09 14:21:59
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »All the CHR spells could go in there, along with the rest you said except for Dancing Edge, because this isn't about being job specific. Dancing Edge is great on Thief until you get Evisceration and Rudra's Storm, which are locked behind quests.
I didn't say DE was useless, I said Gain-CHR was useless unless you're going to use DE on RDM (a joke).
Obscure joke, lol. I never would have remembered that Dancing Edge had a CHR mod.
As the title suggests, I'm looking to concoct a list of FFXI moves that are so ineffective they might as well not exist. However, I'm only adding moves that can be adequately explained as to why they are worthless at least 95% of the time. There are always going to be niche uses for some moves. Let's take Steal on Thief for example. It may not see as much use in 2024 as it did back in the day, but it remains useful for stealing buffs and Impish Boxes.
I'd like to begin with Modus Veritas on Scholar. Heavily abused back when introduced, SE nerfed it so hard that nobody has used it for anything meaningful ever since.
Description: Increases damage done by helix spells while lowering spell duration by 50%.
If the ability lands, the DoT effect of the Helix will be doubled, and the remaining duration will be halved. Resist rate is high even on regular enemies, and extremely high on NMs. Modus Veritas will always fail if the current potency of the Helix effect is 5,000 or higher.
There are two reasons why Veritas became useless.
1) The resist rate is so high on everything, and even more so for NM (the prime target for putting a Helix on), that it doesn't work most of the time.
2) It only makes sense to use on a low damage Helix. Scholars aim for a Helix effect of 10k, which is the cap. Therefore, if a player hit a 4k Helix and then used Modus Veritas, they would get a 8k Helix for with a lower duration. But that's only if it lands. Most Scholars would prefer to Magic Burst another Helix to cap, or at least get close to capping.
Does it have any use? Perhaps. When a player is in a situation where setting up a skillchain to Magic Burst isn't viable, then they could nuke a Helix and boost it further with Modus, but that only makes sense if the target won't last for a long time, and if they know it won't resist, which it probably will, so why bother? I'm not clued up on the most advanced endgame strategies in Odyssey, so maybe it has found some use somewhere? Feel free to confirm it has. Please be encouraged to add your own moves here with an explanation. Thank you.
Edit: This is the list I made from the comments. Please know that it is subjective, and some of the moves may still be viable in exceptionally rare scenarios.
1. Charm / Gauge
2. Modus Veritas
3. Unlimited / Flashy / Stealth Shot
4. Assassin's Charge / Warrior's Charge
5. Concentric Pulse
6. Tranquility / Equanimity
7. Smiting Breath
8. Scholar's / Avenger's / Courser's Roll
9. Any CHR boosting spells and songs
10. Aspir Samba
11. Odin
12. Astral Flow Blood Pacts
(minus Clarsach Call, Altana's Favor & Perfect Defense)
13. Level ? Holy
14. Brave Hero Glenn
15. Deodorize
16. Many BLU spells (look at Maletaru's list to agree/dispute)
17. Enspell II
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