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Newer players need to step up their game
 Leviathan.Isiolia
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 472
By Leviathan.Isiolia 2024-11-26 10:42:27
Iamaman, I'll welcome you to disagree with me on this if you'd want to: Even if people within SE had the skills needed to reverse engineer the entire PS2 Dev Kit system & virtualize it, they still would not do it. Money?? Not wanting to pay employees to do it...? Yes... However, there's another factor... Japanese culture would prohibit it.
It's all just business decisions. Sony already kept services running extra long just to support XI, and have probably already given SE whatever they've asked for in that respect.
Realistically, "development hardware" is an easy shorthand. It's the whole pipeline for generating XI content. Older employees that still know the old processes/tools for generating content for an old engine only used for a single old product in the company's active lineup.
Focusing on the dev kit hardware itself is likely barking up the wrong tree. When the PS2 was still in scope, sure, they needed them to verify/debug for the hardware. Same with 360 dev kits.
At this point though, if/where they're still in use is probably in service to keeping the workflow functional without needing to spend money and/or retrain people.
 Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1626
By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-11-26 11:00:37
It's not just new players though
Every Odyssey C run have to tell others open chests if you can
Don't run by them
The DD always respond with I have to keep my hands on my *** at all times bro that's the healers job
Nope the healers job is to keep you from being face down
*** up
AoE Long duration Regen V and phalanx, then go open some chests. You have time. If you can't do that then you're on the wrong healer for segments.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 11:24:05
Everyone needs to pull their weight in these events. The whole "healer should be opening chests" is just another lazy subjective perspective that has evolved over time from established groups who knew what they were doing down to PUGs who have no idea what is going on in the event. Yes, it makes sense for the healer to do it, just like it makes sense for the Tank to have pop items for the UNM bosses. But I've found that these traditional expectations don't carry their way into real PUGs. Most people don't even see the chests in Seg farming, they just mash the DP for 25+ minutes. There's absolutely nothing preventing anybody from clicking a chest and spending your 20+ izzat to open the damn chest, unless you don't have the max discount yet and prefer someone else who has it maximize points. Why are groups getting to the goal of Sheol C and clicking the end, and then running back to spend their 20+ izzat? That betrays the entire purpose of max segments in a run. There's also nothing preventing a player from grabbing each pop item and keeping it handy so that you don't roll up to a Junction and have to hear "oh, I don't have pops". That whole "not my job" thing is just another way of admitting you are a lazy player.
Everyone should be cognizant of all of these smaller details in groups, otherwise the group as a whole will fall apart. It's just like when people say "damn, I died because the healer was slow to cure me" (which could definitely be the case), but maybe your dumbass was rocking full glass cannon gear and you hit the floor because you're brittle? Another player-created problem.
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By buttplug 2024-11-26 11:30:59
Well usually either go PLD/SAM/WHM for that event and open chest on all them and have gotten full clears so shut the *** up iocus you stupid piece of ***
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Phoenix.Capuchin
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-11-26 12:11:17
Specific to opening Sheol chests, you also want to have the chest opener have the highest Moogle Mastery level in the group, so they have a lower izzat cost. Pretty likely that newer players won't be the highest MM in their group, and in that case they should NOT be the ones opening chests if you want to maximize rewards for the team. For that one, I can see how people would get burned by being told NOT to open chests and then getting used to not wanting to mess it up for others, so they just get in the habit of not opening chests.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 12:15:11
you also want to have the chest opener have the highest Moogle Mastery level in the group, so they have a lower izzat cost
The chest discount is independent of Moogle Mastery level, it just so happens that Moogle Mastery level is gained by reaching chest tiers. It's the same with UNM pop material cost per floor (independent of MM level, based on how many times you've killed that NM). Think its -1 Izzat for every 10 of that kind, capped at 50 boxes per type. Common misconception, but a person who only does Sheol C every single day would probably cap the discount in a couple of week's worth of running Segs, and if they only do Sheol C, they might have MM7 or 8 within that timeframe, but still be able to pop capped discount chests (Coffers might be another story)
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1809
By Cerberus.Shadowmeld 2024-11-26 12:19:44
you actually don't want everyone opening chests. It's very common for people to get soft locked by interacting with a chest while someone else is opening it.
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Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 12:25:28
Yeah, that's just a general Odyssey problem, same as multiple people picking a Gaol NM and someone losing their KI and warping back to the lobby. Anyways, I wasn't implying that every player should be actively opening chests; a simple 15 second discussion can iron out who is responsible for that duty. I've just noticed people assume the healer is going to do it, but then never does (because he wasn't told and he doesn't know he's supposed to), so nobody pops them, and then you end up with 28 izzat at the end with 40 seconds remaining that could have been otherwise spent had at least one other person had the presence of mind to spend izzat along the way, or at just remind the group.
Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1626
By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-11-26 12:27:12
Well usually either go PLD/SAM/WHM for that event and open chest on all them and have gotten full clears so shut the *** up iocus you stupid piece of ***
Definitely just won this thread. And it feels good.
Yeah, that's just a general Odyssey problem, same as multiple people picking a Gaol NM and someone losing their KI and warping back to the lobby. Anyways, I wasn't implying that every player should be actively opening chests; a simple 15 second discussion can iron out who is responsible for that duty. I've just noticed people assume the healer is going to do it, but then never does (because he wasn't told and he doesn't know he's supposed to), so nobody pops them, and then you end up with 28 izzat at the end with 40 seconds remaining that could have been otherwise spent had at least one other person had the presence of mind to spend izzat along the way, or at just remind the group.
Very much agreed with this thought process. If you are hitting the end of the run with a ton of izzat, it's all your faults. No one gets a pass on that.
By Kaffy 2024-11-26 12:27:45
While working on izzat costs, is it better to open as many chests as you can, or save for coffers and aurums?
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 12:35:15
Izzat costs are based on box type opened. You get a -1 Izzat reduction for opening 10 of any type of the same box. They cap at -5, or 50 boxes opened (of that type).
So Chests start at 13 Izzat, capping izzat reduction gives you -5, or 8 Izzat to open a chest at max discount. At that point you can't reduce it any further. I think Coffers start at 15 Izzat and can be reduced to 10 after 50 Coffers opened. Aurums are 20 starting cost and can be reduced to 15 opening 50 coffers.
So the izzat reduction is all based on what box type you are opening. Normally, in Sheol C runs, you rarely will be opening Aurums and very unlikely to be opening Coffers (because most people don't have those discounts, so the izzat cost is higher, which is less efficient use of izzat and ultimately seg returns). Most people will have the Chest discount and might have the Coffer discount, but unless the person is actively farming Moogle Mastery tiers, they will unlikely have the max discount for Aurum Strongboxes. I would say if you are in a group where you all want to maximize all discounts, spend a handful of runs trying to open the bigger box types to bring the cost down. Eventually it will max out, but keep it mind it is less segment-efficient to get the higher box discounts down, and many people don't even open Aurums anyways, so it's kind of pointless unless its something you want yourself.
If you've done THF key/mimic farming runs in specific zones, you'll find yourself capping the discount a lot faster than doing actual runs, since picked chests count towards your total "opened chests" at the Pilgrim Moogle
By Kaffy 2024-11-26 12:37:42
Thanks, should have mentioned this will be by myself, so lower segs in the short run isn't a huge concern.
By Dodik 2024-11-26 12:40:34
When trying to cap chest cost best to save izzat to pop as many of the chest type not yet capped.
So chests -> coffers -> aurum. For aurum specifically you won't be able to pop more than one initially, 5(capped chest)+8(capped coffer)+20(initial aurum cost) is 33 per aurum chest, if it pops.
So save up whole run's worth for aurum and pop at the end hoping for aurum pop.
For coffers same thing, save up and pop as many coffers at the end as you can.
Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 12:49:05
Oh my numbers are wrong for Chests and Coffers, my bad (had the boxes flipped). Its 10 starting cost for chest, discount maxes at 5, 13 starting cost for coffer, discount maxes at 8. Dodik is correct.
Phoenix.Iocus
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1626
By Phoenix.Iocus 2024-11-26 13:34:50
It was mentioned other places but after you have your chests capped chests and aurums give more segments per izzat vs coffers by a little bit if you care about that. I open every chest I can during our runs and if we start getting a bunch of extra, I try to get to aurums.
Phoenix.Capuchin
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3628
By Phoenix.Capuchin 2024-11-26 17:15:26
Cerberus.Shadowmeld said: »you actually don't want everyone opening chests. It's very common for people to get soft locked by interacting with a chest while someone else is opening it.
You also wouldn't want two people opening different chests around the same time, potentially leaving the group without enough izzat to open a coffer.
Anyway, as kinda proven here by (1) the fact that there's this much to say about it, (2) the mechanics are not obvious, and (3) there's something of a strategic element... it's not necessarily the best example of newer players playing badly if they aren't confident enough to know when to open chests.
I kinda feel that it's the more veteran players' responsibility in this case to provide some instructions on who opens chests, and when (as soon as you have enough izzat to open a normal chest? only when you have at least enough for chest+coffer? save it until last floor to try to get enough izzat to open an Aurum?)
Carbuncle.Maletaru
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2685
By Carbuncle.Maletaru 2024-11-26 17:25:18
Oh my numbers are wrong for Chests and Coffers, my bad (had the boxes flipped). Its 10 starting cost for chest, discount maxes at 5, 13 starting cost for coffer, discount maxes at 8. Dodik is correct.
Chest starts at 10, discounted down to 5
Coffer starts at 15, discounted down to 8
Aurum starts at 20, discounted down to 10
I agree, the best strategy is to max out one box first then do the others, though I think in terms of your personal rewards, it all comes out in the wash.
The quickest/easiest way is to have someone who already has them maxed out do it for you. They still count for your tally even when someone is paying minimal cost to open
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Lakshmi.Buukki
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2024-11-26 18:34:04
Carbuncle.Maletaru said: »Chest starts at 10, discounted down to 5
Coffer starts at 15, discounted down to 8
Aurum starts at 20, discounted down to 10
It's been so long, I forgot what the starting value and calculation was, but now I remember it with your post laying it out. IIRC, it came out to be a 10% reduction for each tier, rounded down, at 5 tiers each per box (not a flat -1 izzat cost as I stated previously). Thanks for clarifying.
Look I'm not trying to gatekeep here, everyone wants the community in this game to be the best it can be and that means helping beginners evolve into veterans.
However, I saw this thread on Reddit today about WoW and it really reminded me of my experience in FFXI lately: https://old.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1fl6az3/wow_has_a_problem_where_everyone_wants_to_do_hard/
"WoW has a problem where everyone wants to do hard content but only 5% of those people want to put in the absolute bare minimum amount of effort required to do that content"
I feel like this accurately describes modern FFXI as well. The last few linkshells I've gotten into that actually did events, it was roughly 3 or 4 veteran players who knew what they were doing and had a solid spread of jobs with adequate gear and knew how to play them, then 10-15 somewhat newer players who have absolutely nothing except one or two DD jobs which they claim are "pretty well geared" but are actually rocking a Kaja weapon and fulltiming Ambuscade armor. These players go quiet the moment folks mention that we need a COR, BRD, GEO, WHM, etc in order to do the content they're wanting to do. Same when directly encouraged to level a job that can contribute at events without top-end gear, they just kind of go quiet and weeks/months later they're still doing the same thing: asking to come on their crappy NIN because they "need to get better gear." (Hint: DD jobs need better gear than anyone else in the group. Literally ANY other job will be easier to contribute with than the one job newbies all want to play which is DD.) These people are trying to dive into Odyssey/Sortie/etc (the hardest content in the game) to get the more advanced rewards while still being unable to contribute in intermediate content that they regularly get carried through. It's completely out of order!
New players: We want to help you. We really do. But carrying dead weight gets old pretty fast. This game has a progression, it doesn't "start" once you reach the peak of performance. It basically starts when you hit Lv99. If you're 99, you are IN the prime of the game. Be patient and build yourself up brick by brick. Enjoy the journey.
Research the content. Research what builds people are doing the content with. Level and gear more than one role so that a melee job isn't the only thing you have to offer. Research how those jobs are played. ASK QUESTIONS, don't just quietly join and assume all you have to do is wack stuff with your weapon. Ask about strategy if you don't know. Ask what your job needs in order to be "good enough" for that content if you don't know.
Yes, you'll get some elitist pricks who just don't want to deal with you. Don't let that discourage you, you still did the right thing by outing yourself as a beginner. FFXI also has a fantastic base of extremely helpful players who will spend hours helping you and ask nothing in return, but we're going to lose interest pretty fast if you aren't proactive about trying to contribute. So don't take advantage of helpful players; try to find ways to make it easier for them to help you, most importantly by having a job that can support them in some way while you're with them.
FFXI players, for the most part, love helping people and are some of the most awesome and helpful MMO players around, but if you make helping you as difficult as possible then you're going to have a harder time finding willing help.
Thanks and God bless
-Perg
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