Random Plays

Saying this on a FFXI based site is *** wild considering the designers never intended for Ninja to be a tank job

was chainspell DL (and many other iterations of stun to entirely prevent/circumvent boss moves) decided by designers or the players? how about tp denial strats? how about kiting so that you can take as long as you like just by simply staying out of range? the developers give players tools to use, but don't predicate how and when to use them.

don't feel like typing the whole thing up right this minute, but also consider gearswap/spellcast. the developers make content, players create optimization to ensure they maximize dps and minimize being caught in the wrong set at the wrong time removing some amount of human error. devs then adjust future content knowing that players use these tools to enhance their gameplay. it's a big loop.


If you don't think there is a hierarchy of players who use gearswap and any other tool to ensure sucess vs. those who don't, I don't know what to tell you. to my knowledge there isn't a single encounter in FFXI that requires any of those things, but that doesn't mean the playerbase hasn't all but mandated their use when operating outside of close knit groups.

Ninja may not be intended as a tank role, but utsusemi giving 100% evasion rate to single attack is a stat assigned by designers, not players.

In a game with complicated stats interactions, it's very normal for the players to find certain stat interaction that's effective and use it in a way that isn't anticipated by designers initially. That doesn't mean designer lose control on how stat interaction should work though.

SE 100% has the ability to nerf NIN tanking if they really want to. They just decided add tanking as part of viable NIN playstyle that is. The designers still make decisions on how the system works, and it is the system and stats that allows effective build to even exist. Players only find and use those effective stats permitted by the system, they didn't build it.

Huh? The sentence that you quoted literally said there IS social hierarchy in MMO genre because the game design rewards optimized stats interaction.

If a MMO doesn't reward optimized stats interaction and they give reward to other activities like role-playing or something, Then very few people will optimize stat interaction. they'll mostly role play all day for the rewards. And people will write guides on how to roleplay better. Then social hierarchy will be shaped by who roleplay the best and gets the best rewards.

That's why I said MMO social hierarchy is shaped by how the game system is designed. In a system that rewards optimized stats interaction, of course social hierarchy will be built based on who optimize stats interaction the best.

Human behavior is shaped by the system that they are in.


If game designers don't want enemy to be interrupted at all, then they won't put a spell called "stun" in game.

CS stun or stun rotation only extend the time that enemy movement is interrupted by stacking bodies or ability to lower cooldown, it doesn't change how stun functions as enemy interruption move. Stuns functions exactly how it should be with or without CS.

If game designers don't want "limit enemy TP gain" to be a playstyle, then they won't put subtle blow trait nor TP drain move in game.

The reason why any of these strats are viable is because designers put those skills in game as part of answer to a challenge, and player simply "found" the answer. It doesn't mean those aren't intended by designers.


They do. That's why boss enemies in FFXI have stun resistance that builds up if you stun too much. This mechanic is there because designers assumed players will use stuns, so resist mechanics is there to limit the number of stuns you can use per fight.


And that's why there was "rage" mechanics on old NM and time limits in new content.

All of those counter mechanics, like stun resist, rage or time limits is basically game designers telling how certain strategy can't be abused. Aka "wrong" answer to the solution.

So in my eyes, the optimal strategy is always decided by system designers and math, not players. Players only "found" optimal strategy permitted in the system. Players didn't "decide" what the optimal stat interaction is because they can't change stats.

all I'm saying is that the devs and players BOTH decide in a continuous leap frog cycle. stun/bind resist, WS and MB walls, all of those did not originally exist until they were used to trivialize content and removed to add difficulty back to certain fights.

even if you can say a strategy is the wrong answer in terms of what the devs intended vs. what the players use, that literally never stops the players from universally adopting it as default until the next wave of adjustments.

how about AV, probably an even better example than any of the others.

Players will always try to break a game in the game world by trying everything, but ultimately it is the system designers that get to decide which answer is right and which answer is wrong after the possibilities are found.

If players beat the content in a way that dev don't see as legit, dev will nerf it or change the direction in future updates.

If dev doesn't react, that means they've decided this answer can be the "right" answer too. They allowed the strategy to exist by not nerfing it after it is discovered. So it is still their choice.

Players can find possible optimal solutions within tons of possibilities in the system after mechanics are built, and some of those solutions may not be anticipated by the designer initially. This happens often if the system is complex with very large numbers of possibilities. And it happens even more often in live service games that one system is often build on top of another after update, making the system and math hard to manage for the team.

But ultimately it is still system designers choice to decide if any of those stat interaction possibilities are "right" way or not since they have the power to control.

That's why I said right/wrong answer to game mechanical challenge is ultimately decided by system designers and math, not players. Players only "find" optimal strategy defined by math, they didn't "decide" what optimal strategy is since they can't change stats from the backend.


Isn't AV one of the best example that shows dev is the one who get to decide what strategy is legit and what is not? I thought the strategy was nerfed because it's beaten in an "unintended" way.

In other words, the system designers decided certain strategy is "wrong" by directly changing stats. Having the power to change stats means power to change the right or wrong answer for a strategy.

seems mostly semantic to me, I basically said the exact same thing. I just said that it is constant 1up between the two, you say dev always get the first and final laugh. not worth splitting hairs over.

From system analyzer's pov, an optimal stat interaction being "found" by the user, and stats/numbers being "created" by the creator, are not really semantic. They are 2 very distinct concepts.

But I guess for most users what matters to them is their playing experience, not how the system and numbers function underneath. So distinguish the difference isn't as important for them.

You mean when they adjusted enmity loss when absorbing attacks through a shadow and made enemy TP moves take multiple shadows?

Yes, they tried, and the players said "*** you this is a tank job, not a DPS job" and the dev's ultimately caved to it.

Did they? I am under the impression that tons of newer endgame NM often can't be shadow tanked fully .....to me it always feel like a move to make PLD and RUN real tank not NIN.

Either way, I am not sure what are you trying to say here? Dev made a spell that gives the character 100% evasion rate stat called utsusemi. Which leads to players using this stat to tank mobs, which may or may not be an intended party role for NIN, but this particular stat function the way they are IS created by the dev however.

So how can you say player behavior isn't shaped by math and stats? Players made this job a tank precisely because number says "utsusemi has 100% evasion rate to single attack." If utsusemi doesn't have this stat then players wouldn't make NIN a tank. To me player strategy is always shaped by stat interaction and math behind it, not the other way around. And that's my point.