If accuracy req is 2100 like stated, it's just plain not enough without BRD. a 50% geomancy nerf puts you down 100 acc vs BRD right off the bat, and a setup with only BRD for acc buffs was already counting on quickstep and eva down to get there(you can't stack distract with breaks or beetle, it's the same debuff).
But, again, it depends on if the numbers are accurate or not. I'm leaning toward not, going by the general tone of the posts made, but that doesn't necessarily mean the real numbers are lower.
I think people are making a bigger deal out of dispel than they need to, there are ways to potentially mitigate it. If tank is kiting, a 10' aoe won't hit melee. Because he TPs so frequently, there are many opportunities to WS while he's being kited as well. This could be a potential avenue to avoid dispel entirely.
If you do need to get hit by it, a BRD with capped fast cast can have honor march back up in under 2 seconds, and full acc buffs in ~12. Sometimes dispel will go off back to back and you'll have just honor march for a while, but other times you'll have 50+ seconds between dispels and get quite a lot of time to utilize the buffs. And, again, this only applies to the portion of the fight against august, while you are fighting a naakual you have the option to use a tank configuration that lets melee avoid dispel entirely or CC august.
It's too soon to rule out things that haven't been actually tried, but what we really need is some hard numbers on evasion(would be nice to have them for defense/damage resistances too).
Oathsworn Blade Master Trial
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Oathsworn Blade Master Trial
FWIW, can use BoG/Ecliptic on precision, and it's impossible to have geomancy spells that are buffs reduced, they only reduce the effectiveness of debuff bubbles. BoG/Ecliptic precision would be 175 acc, and torpor would be 25~100 depending how reduced it is in this battle (or if).
It's still much less effective than a BRD from an accuracy pov, but it's not as bad as mentioned above. Still subject to recasts and luopan dying, and that means you have to stay within the buff bubble(so kiting or repositioning would cost you all that benefit for minutes). It's not like marcato, where as long as you don't eat a dispel you get the full 10 minutes benefit.
True, 2100 seems atrociously high. I wasn't aware that number was stated. Evasion down does stack with steps and a bubble though no? I know distract for instance wont stack with shield break but I thought steps and bubbles were different from "evasion down".
regardless, if its that high and geomancy is in fact nerfed... that's a major issue lol Bubbles stack with it, but the numbers with BRD already counted on having eva down and quickstep 10. So, using GEO instead of BRD can't be made up by adding those, they're already in play.
Shiva.Thorny said: » Still subject to recasts and luopan dying, and that means you have to stay within the buff bubble(so kiting or repositioning would cost you all that benefit for minutes). It's not like marcato, where as long as you don't eat a dispel you get the full 10 minutes benefit. Sure, there are definitely different pros and cons for BRD and GEO, just pointing out that -50% geomancy penalty would put you at +150 acc, not +100, since geomancy penalty doesn't apply to buffs at all. If you can do GEO-precision without it dying (use Widen Compass, Dematerialize, etc.) then it gets even better (225), if there is no geomancy penalty, it gets even better (275). If you have 2 GEOs and bubbles aren't dying, can do BoG/Ecliptic on both accurary-related bubbles (350 with no penalty). Really depends if geomancy is nerfed, by how much, and how often your bubbles are dying. Carbuncle.Maletaru said: » Sure, there are definitely different pros and cons for BRD and GEO, just pointing out that -50% geomancy penalty would put you at +150 acc, not +100, since geomancy penalty doesn't apply to buffs at all. edit: 267, forgot merits. If you were to sword madrigal in blurred harp+1(which seems reasonable if eating dispels), it's still 258. if you have s5 loughnashade, don't lose anything.
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Very valid ^^. I am just theory crafting anyhow at this point in time and trying to contribute some thoughts/ideas to those currently trying.
Will be interesting to see what some of these actual requirements and party compliments end up being in the coming weeks/months. In before something stupid like you have to nuke the opposite element of the naakuul 100 times to stop august regen. C/G Setting the stage fiasco all over again.
Shiva.Thorny said: » One group that wasn't known for being particularly good at the time spent a really long time refusing to give up It was widely known that BTL was the top LS on Seraph, with multiple members having relics and playing at the highest levels. They were as serious and good as any endgame HNMLS from any server during that era. The fact that their 18-hour PW attempt got picked up by Wired and Kotaku only adds to their prestige. IIRC correctly, most of their damage came from BLU/THF SATA Cannonballs behind tanks. Asura.Clintbeastwood said: » It was widely known that BTL was the top LS on Seraph, with multiple members having relics and playing at the highest levels. They were as serious and good as any endgame HNMLS from any server during that era. Top LS on one server, out of You can ego about something that was over 15 years ago if you want, but fact remains that it was one group making one attempt and the defining characteristic of that attempt was people committing to the sunken cost fallacy and refusing to give up. Noble in a sense, sure. But, hardly proof that it was unkillable or needed a nerf. The first fight against anything is always a mess, the primary difference here is that the pop item was seen as quite valuable and members refused to give up and rethink. You could easily have thrown bodies at AV for 18 hours, too. You could probably have thrown bodies at pre-nerf JOL for 18 hours if you were uncoordinated enough. The only reason it became relevant was people crying about their own choices to 'gaming journalists', which weren't much better then than they are now. Asura.Eiryl said: » It's just a (lack of) skill issue. It's absolutely hilarious to see people who aren't even trying the fight calling the guy who was among the first in the world to clear the last master trial, unskilled. Perhaps if Shiraj was half as skilled as Eiryl, he would have been able to solo Oathsworn Blade back in January.
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If he were half as skilled he'd have stopped trying an obviously unwinnable strat, and won, correct.
Failing to stuff the square into the starshaped hole repeatedly ain't where it's at. Making me look bad, I said it'd be beaten already and they're *** around on ranger. Ovalidal said: » It's absolutely hilarious to see people who aren't even trying the fight calling the guy who was among the first in the world to clear the last master trial, unskilled. Perhaps if Shiraj was half as skilled as Eiryl, he would have been able to solo Oathsworn Blade back in January. Ovalidal you'll have to forgive people on this forum, we have Mr. RMT that would rather play gossip girl with others for trying content and then letting community know about their findings, instead of using some of his many characters to do any research him self. And then you have Eiryl the forum troll, which doesn't even play the game anymore and yet feels an obligation to comment on every thread as if they had a clue.
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So spent some time tanking this guy on PLD, RUN, NIN and another time on SCH and these are some of my findings.
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Valiance/Vallation cannot be dispelled if you use it with three runes (any type).
Other than that, thanks for all the findings! Shiva.Myamoto said: » So spent some time tanking this guy on PLD, RUN, NIN and another time on SCH and these are some of my findings. Null field's dispel is a random dispel between 1-3 buffs. Meva does not effect it. I can provide a few screenshots if needed of it landing 3 dispels with Odyllic on August. Amnesia is also the same. I've tried fire carols, unda runes + pflug, more often than not I'd get a 45s Amnesia, rarely I'd get 20s etc. Sometimes it'd flat out resist and I'd wager it was a Tenacity Proc on RUN. Odyllic also does nothing for resisting it. Alabaster Burst is indeed a light based attack which also gives you a Dia effect with a -33% defense down. Definitely erase. And Enfeebles are hard to land throughout the entire fight. With BiS gear, We were having to nitro threnody + rayke + frazzle just to land distract. Sometimes it was only half duration as well. He might have a build up of resistances. Our RDM landed Petrify 1st try lasting 1-2 minutes? or so without saboteur, but couldn't land it again with chainspell sabo spam. Similar thing with Sleep. Edit: We also magic burst with the aforementioned steps to land debuffs and keep uptime with it. Survival is not really an issue until the adds pop. All the debuffs etc. Duban may be optimal for both adds + august. And as Sechs mentioned, Vallation/Valiance cannot be dispelled, even with a full dispel, making it pretty nice on some fights. His physical attack he lunges at you, It looks like a shield bash? is his stun attack. Lasts around 5s~ not commonly used though. He gets access to other TP moves during Daybreak, just similar to SR versions it looks like. Only casts Protect 5 and Shell 5 for buffs. Flash, Banish 4, Holy 2 for debuffs/damage.
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Ovalidal said: » It's absolutely hilarious to see people who aren't even trying the fight calling the guy who was among the first in the world to clear the last master trial, unskilled. Perhaps if Shiraj was half as skilled as Eiryl, he would have been able to solo Oathsworn Blade back in January. The last master trial was beaten by a dozen groups within 10 days. For that matter, Eiryl posted what the strategy would be(shadows, and that's really all it is.. the rest is pretty flexible) before it was even released. I beat it twice(so all my characters would have the dagger) in less than a day while 6boxing, without much difficulty. I'm sure someone will point out that I must've(and did) use bots and automation, but Shiraj's group is sitting there using anchor and auto-hover even with real people for each of their characters. I feel like it's relatively obvious that you're associated with their group in some way, perhaps you even posted this thread to jerk them off. But, nobody who understands the game is impressed by a RNG strat being backed by auto-hover lua, anchor, and probably other things. Even if it was manual and not using blatant cheats, RNG strat is by far the easiest to execute of the game's major strategy types. They didn't come up with some ingenius idea to get around an otherwise impossible fight, like Mischief's group did for Bumba V25. They took the most obvious strategy, tried it, found that it wasn't nearly enough damage, and continued doing it over and over for some reason. This is all well and good, but the primary reason I've been so negative toward them is because Shiraj came in posting statements as if they were absolute truth, while refusing to share any meaningful information because he still wanted first win. You don't get it both ways, if you're refusing to share the information that brought you to them then you can't expect anyone to believe your conclusions. And, no small coincidence, as soon as someone else tries to post hard data, he's ready with answers to it. But, he made sure to just barely convey that he knows more than they do, while not revealing anything else.
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Asura.Shiraj said: » Shiva.Myamoto said: » So spent some time tanking this guy on PLD, RUN, NIN and another time on SCH and these are some of my findings. So a few things I'll correct/add since you did some testing. Nice, thanks for the feedback. I honestly wasn't aware of that valiance/vallation thing. Don't play RUN a whole tbh, decently geared but not a lot of playtime. Usually opt for PLD unless MB is needed and even then I am usually on SCH. Learned something new today. Also to add, that sword physical attack that lunges is a small knockback. Very minor but does in fact knockback. Yeah on PLD survival solo was easy enough against august... only ended up caving basically because of I ran out of mp/viles/chivalry timer etc after 30 minutes or so. But yeah, based on the ML50 RDM I had join me on a run to test some enfeebles and such, Rayke would very much be needed to land certain debuffs for sure outside of stymie. Did try a single skillchain multiple times to land distract and that did nothing either. No immunobreaks either but also never a "completely resists". I would be curious to see unresisted rayke/gambit multistep sc Kaustra though. My 10k burst with no rayke/gambit/darkshot/multistep sc suggests to me that helix/kaustra dot is viable to be maintained when available. I am under the impression that his resist tiers are stupid high (near immunity but not quite) and perhaps slightly less resistant to dark but still very high. Shiva.Thorny said: » I feel like it's relatively obvious that you're associated with their group in some way, perhaps you even posted this thread to jerk them off. I don't know Shiraj from Adam. I didn't even know anyone in that group existed when I made this thread, I'm relatively new. I played casually on and off since 2022, but that's it. To tell the truth, I wasn't really talking about you. Criticising their strat is perfectly fine. Your back and forth with Shiraj has seemed productive enough. But taking cheap shots at the group when you have no intention of trying the Master Trial or contributing to the conversation in any way is something else entirely. Congrats on the 6-box clear of Crystal Paradise by the way. I recently came across your older post on 6-boxing Black and White. As a new player, this stuff is beyond impressive lol.
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Shiva.Thorny said: » but Shiraj's group is sitting there using anchor and auto-hover even with real people for each of their characters. Shiva.Thorny said: » I've been so negative toward them is because Shiraj came in posting statements as if they were absolute truth, while refusing to share any meaningful information because he still wanted first win. Shiva.Thorny said: » They didn't come up with some ingenius idea to get around an otherwise impossible fight, like Mischief's group did for Bumba V25. They took the most obvious strategy, tried it, found that it wasn't nearly enough damage, and continued doing it over and over for some reason. 1. Dispel from August 2. Infinite Blink from Bee for 3 to 6 minutes depending on add RNG. 3. Paralyze aura and full dispels from Lion 4. Doom from Tree + buff absorb aoe. 5. Weakness + heavy damage from Gabbrath and Bee. 6. Hate reset on bee and shark 7. AoE terror (5-20s) and high damage output during Daybreak. Pair it with obnoxiously high accuracy requirements, you need more buffs and debuffs for accuracy over survival, dps will struggle to stay alive. PLD can't solo aoe cure. This setup you posted: "RDM PLD DNC BRD WAR PUP" will not be able to survive the aoe damage coming in. Waltz will be paralyze procced, PLD will run into MP issues on Gabbrath due to Virus draining MP. How can you keep refresh/ballads up with dispels happening from adds + August. With so much downtime how can you be so adamant Ranged method, or even Magic burst method is not the play. Factor in downtime from adds causes August's HP to regen. Step into the fight for more than 10 minutes and kill some adds and you would understand. Shiva.Thorny said: » found that it wasn't nearly enough damage Asura.Shiraj said: » 1. Dispel from August Asura.Shiraj said: » 2. Infinite Blink from Bee for 3 to 6 minutes depending on add RNG. Asura.Shiraj said: » 3. Paralyze aura and full dispels from Lion Asura.Shiraj said: » 4. Doom from Tree + buff absorb aoe. Asura.Shiraj said: » 5. Weakness + heavy damage from Gabbrath and Bee. Asura.Shiraj said: » 6. Hate reset on bee and shark Asura.Shiraj said: » 7. AoE terror (5-20s) and high damage output during Daybreak. Asura.Shiraj said: » PLD will run into MP issues on Gabbrath due to Virus draining MP. How can you keep refresh/ballads up with dispels happening from adds + August. I'm not committing to any specific strategy being ideal. I'm theorycrafting based on the information provided, because I enjoy doing that. Asura.Shiraj said: » With so much downtime how can you be so adamant Ranged method, or even Magic burst method is not the play. Factor in downtime from adds causes August's HP to regen. Step into the fight for more than 10 minutes and kill some adds and you would understand. If RNG isn't enough damage, then SCH SC+MB isn't going to be enough damage either as it has a much lower ceiling.. which leaves melee being involved in some way. It's the logical progression here that if you refuse to accept it's impossible, you have to entertain melee strategies. Maybe it's impossible to keep melee healed and buffed enough to be active. I can't tell you you're wrong and it's doable, I'm just pointing out that there are potential solutions to everything you claim is impossible, and most of them come down to more preparation and coordination. I haven't done much with it myself because I don't have prime weapons, don't intend to grind prime weapons, and feel that makes me undergeared and unable to win even if I got to the correct strategy. I haven't made any effort to try for firsts or publicize my clears in years anyway, because it's kind of lame for someone running a bot party to brag about doing something, it isn't legit by most standards and it cheapens the achievements of people who do clear legitimately. Shiva.Thorny said: » 1-3 buffs every 24 secs, you can recast them. If kiting is feasible, you don't even have to be hit by it 1st dispel:  2nd Dispel  This was 12 seconds apart and just unlucky the back to back TP move was dispel. This kind of RNG is just not viable for something as tedious as buffs when they are so reliant for dps. I'd imagine more TP feed from melee strat as well, so you may see more TP moves in faster time frame. Shiva.Thorny said: » This doesn't effect melee any more than RNG if it's a percent chance to absorb all attacks. If it's a set amount of shadows being reapplied on a tick(which seems more likely), it effects melee far less. Shiva.Thorny said: » This would suck. There's no getting around that, but there also hasn't been extensive testing into whether auras can be removed, and fights with dispel have been won before. Shiva.Thorny said: » Root of the problem has been single target historically, did you verify it's aoe in this fight Shiva.Thorny said: » bee weakness is cone and shouldn't be hitting your DPS much or at all. Shiva.Thorny said: » 6. Hate reset on bee and shark Again, not a big deal. Tanks have hate JAs. Shiva.Thorny said: » High damage output is just incredibly abstract. I would have to see exactly how much damage it is and how frequent,  This is on a RUN, It would definitely hit a DD/Support much harder. (The auto attack hit me during my enmity set) It's possible it has an element, not sure. This is with this gear set: No vallation was up due to amnesia.  Shiva.Thorny said: » It's a master trial. If it's that big an issue for PLD to keep MP available, you can have everyone bazaar vile elixir/+1 after stepping inside and then PLD has a dozen fast MP recoveries available for shortages, and they do not have to go without refresh the entire fight anyway just because dispels happen on occasion. I'm not committing to any specific strategy being ideal. I'm theorycrafting based on the information provided, because I enjoy doing that. Shiva.Thorny said: » You claim to have made every effort to optimize your RNG damage, but still came up very short. Saying 'dealing 99k' is not really meaningful, either. Is it 99k + sc? Is it 99k from 2 RNGs, or 99k from 2 RNGs and a COR? How often between WS? A melee can probably WS 50% more often, and if SCs are involved the peak damage from a WS is closer to 200k than 100k. You also have the option of getting damage out of your BRD / GEO if you're using melee buffs, while you don't really with a ranged setup. I am taking your word as accurate to the extent that I can, and trusting that you've optimized RNG as far as possible and still came up that short. If RNG isn't enough damage, then SCH SC+MB isn't going to be enough damage either as it has a much lower ceiling.. which leaves melee being involved in some way. It's the logical progression here that if you refuse to accept it's impossible, you have to entertain melee strategies. Ranger's Last stand during soul voice:   I tried to find some variance in the damage, and it seemed 85k was as low as it dipped during Soul Voice. I'd assume a debuff like dia wore or hover shot stacks reset or something to get variance in Last Stand. For this run we had Soul voice for 40 minutes as it was our bestrun at 50% on August. When skillchains happened they cap damage on adds, do about 50k on August. Each WS has around 7-11s delay for the RNG. COR around 8-13s depending on whiffs. Since COR does struggle for Acc in this fight. The COR's Last stands are around 50k during Soul Voice. With 30-45k Light
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Majesty can 100% be dispelled. Cooldown isn't long to reuse but certainly can be an issue between potential dispel/amnesia.
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Asura.Shiraj said: » Kiting won't be an option if you want to keep solid uptime and prevent losing damage, since damage is ofc the main factor. Asura.Shiraj said: » That's the problem I have with suggesting Melee setup. Ranged attacks go through the Infinite Blink. Melees and Spells do not. Asura.Shiraj said: » This is a big deal when you factor in August likes to Amnesia for up to 45s relatively frequently. Very little windows to spike enmity back, lower HP will make it rough when DDs have build up so much enmity. Asura.Shiraj said: » This is on a RUN, It would definitely hit a DD/Support much harder. It's possible it has an element, not sure. Asura.Shiraj said: » I tried to find some variance in the damage, and it seemed 85k was as low as it dipped during Soul Voice. I'd assume a debuff like dia wore or hover shot stacks reset or something to get variance in Last Stand. For this run we had Soul voice for 40 minutes as it was our bestrun at 50% on August. When skillchains happened they cap damage on adds, do about 50k on August. Each WS has around 7-11s delay for the RNG. COR around 8-13s depending on whiffs. Since COR does struggle for Acc in this fight. The COR's Last stands are around 50k during Soul Voice. With 30-45k Light Shiva.Thorny said: » But, have you tried it? Presumably if he's TPing nonstop Shiva.Thorny said: » Have you used a melee setup with several people engaged and sufficient accuracy to verify it's infinite? Blink seems to be coded with a count regardless of the mob  Shiva.Thorny said: » what's stopping you from using them on august for the worse adds? Shiva.Thorny said: » Probably the most interesting thing here is that you're saying 'when skillchains happened', which implies there wasn't a concerted effort to coordinate them. You're also using exclusively last stand(?) Counting all Last Stand in 1 fight, around 400~ Quote: Have you used a melee setup with several people engaged and sufficient accuracy to verify it's infinite? Blink seems to be coded with a count regardless of the mob, even when it's a high count like Wrathare. Presumably the blink aura is resetting the count periodically, so it may be less 'infinite' than it appears with casual testing. You don't need to have entered the master trial to answer this one. Bztavian blink is extremely potent. They gain the effect after every tp move. It's a hell of a lot of shadows. Just go fight WKR Colkhab if you wanna get a feel for it. Sure melee setups can get through it, but it's definitely slow and annoying to do so. Asura.Shiraj said: » So from the outside yes I see your pov on that, but skillchains are basically happening almost the entire fight. I'll see if I can show - will edit in a few minutes when I comb through logger/vod for accurate-ish number. Asura.Shiraj said: » This was 56 absorbs of blink by the bee within a 4:24 period. I didn't want to include the entire list of blink absorb or it'll just be too big of screenshot, so I just showed you a decent chunk. While the bee is absorbing all of our spells/auto attacks it's dying fast paced. Asura.Melliny said: » You don't need to have entered the master trial to answer this one. Bztavian blink is extremely potent. The amount of shadows is absurd. They gain the effect after every tp move and the number of shadows is in the 10-20 range. It's a hell of a lot. Shiva.Thorny said: » There's no high rate of attacks, though. It's getting one shadow every few seconds. If it were a system like, apply a fresh 3 shadow blink every regen tick(we know most auras work on regen ticks), it would appear to be 100% in your situation but be much weaker in a situation where multiple people were attacking. I can include some footage of day 1 JPs attempting to see if it'd give any indicator of how it's like. Skip to 2:15:00 in the vod for the bee spawn. However it is using RNG method as well. They warped out on their melee method prior to the Ranged. YouTube Video Placeholder Shiva.Thorny said: » Noble frenzy is a gkt ws, is it even AOE? It isn't from the trust. Edit: Just checked vod + log, you're right. Noble Frenzy is Single target only, It's light damage. I absorbed it with Tenebrae runes. It's fulminous fury that's aoe + terror only. my bad. |
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