Potential To Solve Mob SDT/MDB With Swipe/Lunge?

While trying to determine the exact formula for Swipe/Lunge with one rune I noticed my numbers were just slightly off the suggested formula on a level -1 bee in south gustaberg. I adjusted by adding 1 MAB because as far as I can tell mastered RUN99 has no MAB barring subjob or gear.

Once adding +1 MAB the numbers lined up perfectly, though I did have to adjust the formula by adding +1 skill.

My proposed formula for Swipe and 1 rune Lunge is as follows:

floor( floor( ( (Mainhand weapon skill + 1)* (0.5 + SwipeBonus) ) )*SDT) + MagicDamage

where Swipe Bonus is Lunge+ gear (aettir, soulcleaver have +10 each) or job points + which cap at +20 in percentage form in x/256

where SDT is the SDT of the element in percentage form in x/256

Do note that there are other magic terms I'm not listing like resist, magic burst, etc. My tests didn't include those as a baseline. The targets I chose can't cast shell or aren't known to have MDT.

in a test where I believe I solved a level 10 Amethyst Quadav having 11 MDB using the following variables:

SDT = (332/256) -- assumed to be 130% SDT to thunder
Mainhand weapon skill = 656
SwipeBonus = (51/256) -- 20% from 20/20 job points
MagicDamage = 0

crunch the math with the following:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.5 + (51/256))))*(332/256))+0 = 595.

Damage should be 595 if my MAB = their MDB, this Amethyst Quadav is a WHM which should have MDB 1 trait for +10 MDB

10 MAB:

We're off by 5 damage here...

11 MAB:

Spot on. This coincides with mobs having a base of 1 MDB, and players having a base of 0 MAB.

Can someone check my work here? It seems we can solve for elemental SDT and MDB on any target due to the fact that barring resist, factoring in MDT/phalanx etc, Swipe and Lunge do static damage.

Also, some additional bonus facts about Swipe/Lunge that are not listed on the wiki (as of this post)
* Does not give TP (tested with charm)
* Is blinkable by shadows
* The rune selected for Swipe is always the newest one
* The visible animation selected for lunge is either the last rune used or the highest strength rune if you expend 3 runes (2 ignis + 1 gelus = fire animation, even if gelus was used last)

Some issues I can see is that those properties for Amethyst Quadavs are off. Level 10 Amethyst Quadavs have 110 MDB (100 base from species, then +10 from WHM job trait), and take neutral damage from thunder magic.

This is a known target in the JP wiki testing. When I only have +1 MAB I get the same result (other variables unchanged) provided it has 130% SDT to dark.


source on the SDT:
https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/130595-Legends-of-the-Hidden-jp-testing
from https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/349586062856814593/406106601292824598/FFXI_Monster_Resistances_full_1-25-18.xlsx

same thing also indicates quads have varying ranges of SDT to thunder, but most commonly 130% in what they tested. It does not look like they tested many....

So I tested one with known 130% thunder SDT. and listed "110 magic defense" which from my understanding should be +10 MDB, and yet, I needed +11 MAB to get this result.

Those are resistance ranks, not SDT. SDT refers to special damage reductions or increases, like Acuex taking +50% from ice (though having a standard 100% ice resistance rank), or Rampart's -25% damage taken as a separate multiplier.

The MDB thing means your formula is off somehow, since those MDBs have been tested and confirmed using other methods that are more proven.

Give me a target with known SDT values and MDB and I will test it.

The Quadav you were fighting should be a perfectly good target (unless somehow we've had the wrong value for the tier 1 Magic Defense Bonus trait all along), but you can use lizards instead if you want to take MDB traits out of the picture. Standard, non-NM lizards with the normal skin (Rock Lizard, Hill Lizard, etc.) all have 0 SDT, 100 MDB, and a resistance rank spread of 100% fire, 150% wind, 100% thunder, 130% light, 150% ice, 100% earth, 130% water, 130% dark.

It's entirely possible that Swipe goes off of resistance rank, unlike normal magic damage, so using those values in your formula is fine if it makes damage line up; I was just making it clear that resistance rank and SDT are different parameters, and that Quadavs don't have any SDT.

You're missing the +.25 per-rune expended term on BGWiki

(Main-hand weapon Skill) × (0.50 + 0.25*Runes + ((JP+Gear) ÷ 100) ) × Magic Multiplier Term

This might not be the right formula, though

vs Lvl0 Mandragora outside windurst:

Master RUN w/ H2H (16 skill): Swipe gives 14dmg. This is lower than expected (16*(.5+.25+.2)) = 15.2
0JP RUN w/ H2H (16 skill): Swipe gives 12dmg, exactly as expected (16*(.5+.25)) = 12

I don't have time to test this fully, but consider if run JP instead land like this:

(Main-hand weapon Skill * (100+JP)/100) × (0.50 + 0.25*Runes + ((Gear?) ÷ 100) ) × Magic Multiplier Term

(16*1.2) * (.75) = 19.2*.75 = 14.4, or 19*.75 = 14.25. Either rounds to 14, which matches what we saw.

Taking this to your test against the Amethyst:

(656 * 1.2) * .75 * (111/110) = 787.2 * .75 * 111/100 = 595.767
787*.75 = 590.25
590*111/110 = 595.36

This holds to 595 dmg, flooring at any step.

alright so, after poking on the listed lizard

1) it does not have SDT
2) swipe is not effected by resistance rank
3) my formula was wrong, and I think I fixed it.

I switched to Epeolatry which is stronger than the great axe I was using, plus it has mdamage which helps confirm things..

new proposed formula:
floor((floor((Mainhand weapon skill + 1 )* (0.7 + SwipeBonus))+Magic Damage) * magic terms)

This needs no additional MAB. It seems I did wrongly assume the "bee" page on bg wiki was giving me 130% SDT for fire, hence that 1.3x bonus in the OP.

floor(floor((709 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+186)*1.00) = 823
add 1 MAB:
=floor(floor((709 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+186)*1.01) = 831

and testing on a wind elemental...


switch to greataxe:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+0)*1.00) = 590
add 1 MAB:
floor(floor((656 + 1)* (0.7 + (51/256))+0)*1.01) = 595

(I switched to +1 MAB in this shot for the second attack)

Lunge behaves the same as Swipe with 1 rune as far as I can tell. That bonus is listed for Lunge only, while Lunge does pretty clearly have a bonus for multiple runes used (damage is higher than 2x with only 2 of the same rune), I haven't gotten to Lunge (beyond 1 rune) yet.

The listed formulas on the wiki work great for low levels of skill and 0 mdamage but don't seem to work well on high skill/mdamage. That said, they really aren't that far off.

If I use the listed Swipe formula with 0 MAB...

floor(floor((656)* (0.75 + (51/256))+0)*1.00) = 622, which is higher than observed with my greataxe.

the job point description states it only applies to the skill portion. radec's formula works

ahh yeah, you're right; I should have checked that. I had also checked that with Vivacious Pulse too. I'll do some verification

epeolatry:
floor((709*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1)))+186 = 823, checks out

random greataxe:
floor((656*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1)))+0 = 590, checks out

Aettir (Lunge+10):
floor((682*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*1+0.1)))+0 = 695, checks out (see below)


Looks good to me!

Looks like it works for Lunge too

With Aettir:

floor((682*1.2)*((0.5+0.25*3+0.1)))+0 = 1104
1104 * 3 = 3312



I was (once again) thrown off by an incorrect assumption. But it seems we've hit the mark here.