Offhand Katana

For Blade: Ten, the jump from 1000tp (4.5 fTP) to 2000tp (11.5 fTP) is a bigger increase than the jump from 2000 to 3000 (15.5 fTP). So, shooting for 2000 effective TP is the sweet spot for the WS. And you're less likely to over-TP; if you use Heishi/Hitaki, any TP over 1250 is effectively wasted. It's very easy to over TP on a job like NIN that swings so fast and has a lot of multi-attack in most TP sets. If you were a perfect robot that could always WS between 1250-1300tp... maybe Hitaki wins in a close call. In reality? That's never going to happen, so Ternion +1 wins and it isn't particularly close.

Ternion +1 is also better than Hitaki for TP generation. It has much lower delay, TA+4% that applies to both hands, and substantial Accuracy that applies to both hands. On difficult mobs, Hitaki is going to whiff a lot more often than Ternion. Not to mention Ternion +1 provides significantly more offhand white damage. Yes, your damage will still skew more to WS, but it's something.

FWIW, for Savage Blade, Naegling/Hitaki may also lose to Naegling/Ternion +1 these days. SB has similar TP scaling to Ten, though Naegling does make a stronger case for TP bonus offhand mainly due to the much more forgiving risk of over-TP. You can simply spam WS at 1000tp and you're good for effectively 2250tp WS (or 2000 without Moonshade), and if you accidentally WS somewhere in the 1000-1750 range it doesn't get totally wasted.

You can still manage to fail spectacularly if you aren't completely sure you are able to support the garbage acc from a non-ilevel offhand though. Even in a best case scenario for Hitaki, it will be pretty close. And there's so much more risk of the Hitaki setup going badly and losing by a lot. Safer to default to Ternion, IMO.

Naegling also has the Buff>Att conversion which is quite nice if you're not att capped.
Granted that I imagine some buffs are ignored for the conversion, but in general it's gonna give you like, what, 15% att during WS?

I'm not saying it's gonna make a difference like night and & day, but it's not gonna be unnoticeable either eh, if you're att uncapped of course.
At ~2000 TP they have pretty much the same fTP bonus, but Savage Blade has better mods (50% instead of 30%) and that >10% att bonus.
Last but not least, let's not forget that SB gets a ~15% damage bonus thanks to Naegling. You don't get this luxury for Blade: Ten.

In hindsight I think it's these three factors, mainly, that make so Savage Blade performs slightly better in several situations, at least that's been my (saaaaad) experience.
Can't even blame my gear because on SB I pretty much copy my Blade: Ten set, mostly.

Is Achiuchikapu no longer a good offhand?

That offhand is pretty far behind everything else. Ternion+1 is the default that you cannot go wrong with

Using the Blade: Ten set of the main guide for both, forcing mob defense and evasion to 1 each, and using 1000 TP exactly which is best case scenario for TP Bonus offhand:


Savage Blade can get some extra damage with some better swaps, though. Seething +1, Regal Ring, Gere Ring for example brings it up to:


I just want to reiterate this was forcing capped acc and attack, Ternion will give faster TP gain from lower delay and TA on it. I shouldn't have to explain how the accuracy comes in.

That's objective data and it's somewhat useful I guess, but it's also sorta unrealistic?
Or are we gonna assume perfect 1000TP WS usage, constantly att and acc capped on every possible target 100% of the time and so on?

Imho it's not realistic, but if we want to assume that to be the average situation every NIN will play in, then of course Naegling is not the best in such a scenario, I won't argue against that, nobody should honestly.


The main advantages Naegling SB has over Heishi Blade: Ten are:
1) ~15% Att bonus on WS
2) 50% mods instead of 30%
3) More space for overTP if you OH Hitaki

In the scenario you described point 3 and 1 become moot and only 2) remains.
I can only say -and I hate saying this because I despise Naegling and I still refuse to use it- that on Dynamis Divergence stuff I was doing a much larger damage with Naegling MH spamming SB than Heishi MH spamming Blade: Ten.
Parser doesn't lie, and we're talking about ~5 runs of 2 hrs each.
On Trash I was doing fine with Blade: Chi honestly, but only when the GEO was correctly applying both Malaise and Frailty. They were up most of the time, but not 100%.
On red eyes Hybrid sucked and Savage Blade was doing much more damage.
Overall in the whole run I tried alternating the two weapons for 30 mins each, and I HATE to say it but the difference was there.

Buffs were Sam Roll, Regain Roll, Marcato HM, Minux2, Scherzo, Frailty and Malaise (which weren't up 100% of the time but mostly they were).

My SB set isn't optimized on NIN btw, I basically copy my Blade: Ten set (which is nice but not BiS) with maybe 1 or 2 swaps.

I think you're missing the point, this is best case scenario for OH TP bonus, not every situation.

the ninja guide itself assumes this, you are aware right?

Majority of the cases where Naegling attack bonus comes into play, heishi shun is better anyways.

Yeah, but :Ten will be 500TP higher, because Naegling doesnt have 500TP bonus like Heishi.

Austar numbers are generally very hard to achieve in reality, because NIN has TP overflow even when playing solo and when playing with full buffs (especially samurai roll), it tp overflows a lot and there is no way you will TP close to 1000TP. Naegling/Hitaki Savage Blade is the only combo that can beat Heishi/Hitaki :Ten and thats only because of TP overflow (Like you can see in Austar's post in ideal world of WSing at 1000TP Heishi is still better). Any other offhand and Heishi :Ten is stronger, because of 500TP bonus higher and tp overflow not being a problem without Hitaki. So Savage will only win in group content with strong buffs, when you can use hitaki (so not wave 3 imo, NIN doesnt have enough native acc imo). Now like people suggested, in group content with strong buffs, you can use hybrid WSs instead of :Ten for much better results. Overall for anyone with Heishi, I wouldn't bother with Naegling.

I mean you clearly was doing better with SB, because you were far from attack cap (no Chaos roll >.>), while also having tons of buffs, so you were getting massive attack bonus from Naegling.

Well it's not massive, it's "only" 15% and only during WS (which is like what, 80% of our overall damage split?), not even sure when this % gets calculated, I guess multiplicative somewhere.
Still, it was nice for sure.

Difference was there even when I had 5 songs (SV minuets, and 1 more Minuet as 5th song. 5th song actually was tipically up for the majority of the non-jeuno runs, but clearly not 100% and clearly not soulvoiced)

Those savage blade numbers seem waaay off. I get closer to 32k with just some napkin math using Naegling/hitaki and the blade ten set.

You are incapable of wsing at exactly 1000tp so, that would be why.

Also, zone bonus/ eye color stuff

Yes, 1100 tp is more than 1000

Austars numbers are "perfectly 1k" and neutral zone bonuses etc, so you should, in practice, see higher.

Look the set with tp offhand has a minimum 2250tp right? Cause moonshade in it and 1k from offhand which means minimum fTP in that is going to be 11.125. Capped pDif for 1h on NIN is 3.35 and the set has the JSE neck which is a 10% increase taking it to 3.685. That set has 56 WSD in it. It has, assuming a Hume here, about 340ish str and 216ish mind so it’s total WSC is 279 with a base damage weapon of 166. If we just add the base D and WSC we get 445.

445*11.125*3.685*1.56 is about 29k. Add in an additional 15% from Naegling and you over 32K. Doesn’t even add the second hit or Ma procs. That’s what I am saying. It doesn’t look right at all.

Edit* if I had to guess it looks like the SB numbers used the same 30% WSC that ten has instead of 50% and it used PDif incorrectly of just the base 3.35 cause that come out to 22kish.

All the attack buffs you had, it was additive fixed attack. You had zero +% attack buffs like Chaos or Fury. I seriously doubt you were attack capped with just that and frailty. You for sure werent on NMs with gimped GEO bubbles, but even on Trash -42% (assuming Idris without JA buffs on trash) def down is way too low for NIN with only static +attack buffs to be even close to cap. +% attack from Naegling was your only +%attack buff and its rumored its +1% attack per buff (not sure if that was fully tested). You probably had like 20 buffs I would guess, so +20% attack basically means you were doing 20% more damage just from that. In case of Dynamis, when TP overflow happens a lot, especially with SAM+Tactician rolls, :Ten would probably only have like marginal damage advantage with even attack. With like +20% attack, Savage would easily win.

Some guy did some small and non-conclusive tests that seemed to hint at numbers similar to that, then a JP test came out hinting at 1% attack per buff.
Numbers seemed in line so everybody kinda believed them. If I recall?
We still don't know if every single buff works or if there are some exceptions, or a cap (like can't go over 20% etc)



Anyway: when I test stuff on the spreadsheet with my stuff, my gear and my exact situations, most of the time I get Heishi winning, be it with Shun in severaly attack-starved situation, or with Ten normally, or with Hybrids.
When I test with parsers with hours of gameplay though, Naegling always comes ahead (talking about Dynamis here), and by a pretty large margin too.
I don't think the culprit here can be just the Buff>Att% conversion, but hey, what do I know.

I'm not even a fan of Naegling, I despise it with every inch of my NIN soul, I'm just saying I can't deny it always performed better than my Heishi (which truth be said is just Rank1, but then again R1>R15 is not really that huge of a difference from what I tested on the spreadsheet)

Już się robi.

Used same set for :Ten thats in NIN guide.

With:
- 55% WSD (I changed SoA ring to Regal, but included 5% WSD gift)
- 340 STR
- 204 MND
- 274 DEX
- Capped 3.685 pdif for both
- 14.5 fTP (2750TP) for :Ten
- 11.125 fTP (2250TP) for Savage. Applied 15% Naegling bonus here for 12.79375 fTP
- Both weapon base damage 166
- Ignoring fSTR and offhand/Multi-attack proc hits

Savage: 32006
Ten: 29003

Pushing to more real 3000TP on Ten (1250+1000+250+500) and 2500TP Savage (1250+1000+250)

Savage: 34524
Ten: 31003

So WS damage alone with Hitaki, Savage will win. Now you need to keep in mind that Heishi/Hitaki will get TP faster, but on the other hand the result will sometimes be, faster WS, but also sometimes wasted TP by going over 1250. Overall when Hitaki can be used and physical WS damage is priority, Naegling+Savage will be better. If hybrid WSs are not resisted tho, even without malaise, they should make more damage with good enough set.

It’s actually last after everything same way that REMA WSD bonus is.

i think you missed the points. that it doesn't matter the order of factors so adding in 15% increase at the end or directly upon another factor is the same as long as we are talking factors
aka
10 x 10 x 10 x20 x 1.5
is the same as
(10x1.5) x 10 x 10 x 20

So 15% unique bonus you can directly add it into the fTP factor. it comes out the same as if it "was at the end"

really hate the term "At the end". Unique or separate factor is a better term IMHO