The Odyssey - || Strategy And Discussion ||

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The Odyssey - || Strategy and Discussion ||
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By 2021-05-17 11:14:32
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-17 11:17:47
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I could be entirely wrong here, but I think people would've been more willing to extensively test alternative strategies and approaches if you didn't need a KI for every player every time you fail an attempt and if that KI wasn't bound behind a content that you can't do more than once every 20hrs.


As far as I'm concerned Mboze can go die in a fire, now that I'm done with it I'm not touching that thing again on V15 until they nerf it or a new efficient and reliable strategy is found.
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2021-05-17 11:22:20
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I could be entirely wrong here, but I think people would've been more willing to extensively test alternative strategies and approaches if you didn't need a KI for every player every time you fail an attempt and if that KI wasn't bound behind a content that you can't do more than once every 24hrs.


As far as I'm concerned Mboze can go die in a fire, I'm not touching that thing again on V15 until they nerf it or a new efficient and reliable strategy is found.
This right here if you limit people on access they gonna have no real choice but to come up with meta strats.
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-17 11:25:57
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I don't wanna jump to the opposite extreme and claim that gatings are bad.
Some sort of gating to artificially slow down player progress is necessary in my opinion, in some form.

The gating of Odyssey paired with the difficulty of some NMs though makes a lot of players "scared" of failures imho.
This ends up in the opposite result that they wanted to obtain and shared with us through the interview (promoting different setups and fighting against the current meta).

I'm not sure how they could've done it better. Maybe with a system like Ambuscade, where the KI is consumed not when you enter but when you win.
That approach might have made players less "scared" about failures I think, and more willing to test things for hours and hours and hours, which converts into "content that keeps players busy", hopefully "hours of entertainment".
Of course in this scenario I would've removed the partial amount of points you get for failures, or the fact that the NM doesn't regen if you attempt to fight it multiple times in a row without exiting Gaol.

Not sure if that would've worked out better, maybe?
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2021-05-17 11:44:41
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I don't wanna jump to the opposite extreme and claim that gatings are bad.
Some sort of gating to artificially slow down player progress is necessary in my opinion, in some form.

The gating of Odyssey paired with the difficulty of some NMs though makes a lot of players "scared" of failures imho.
This ends up in the opposite result that they wanted to obtain and shared with us through the interview (promoting different setups and fighting against the current meta).

I'm not sure how they could've done it better. Maybe with a system like Ambuscade, where the KI is consumed not when you enter but when you win.
That approach might have made players less "scared" about failures I think, and more willing to test things for hours and hours and hours, which converts into "content that keeps players busy", hopefully "hours of entertainment".
Of course in this scenario I would've removed the partial amount of points you get for failures, or the fact that the NM doesn't regen if you attempt to fight it multiple times in a row without exiting Gaol.

Not sure if that would've worked out better, maybe?
I had the same mindset if it didn't hurt so bad to lose people would be willing to try different strats. I don't think gating is a bad thing if done right. I don't mind grinding for stuff losing to stuff to find a way to beat the hard content. What I mind is multiple gates with little to no way to test things.

If SE gave people a way to try out different setups you'd have people working together as a community to try and think of different way to beat mobs like mboze. People now once they beat v15 mboze they never wanna see it again. Me I wanna fight him again because I don't like looking bad during a fights. I love seeing blm strat again for stuff like ongo different strats are great if your allowed to play around with them and test.

If se made the ki like ambucade it would be better than what most people want I'm sure. If it were up to either take the 1 ki a day for segment farm off and up the rp cost. Other one would be the same but charge people gil to get a ki everytime which would help with all the gil out on the market and allow more points for people to test stuff.
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By Fenrir.Melphina 2021-05-17 11:56:29
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The reason players are hesitant to experiment is absolutely because of the time gated content entry. If segment runs weren't so repetitive and you didn't lose 3k if the the nm beats you people would be more willing to try out new stuff. But getting the currency to enter the battlefield is a slow and arduous process. It's not something people are willing to just squander away on a gamble.
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 Shiva.Thorny
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-05-17 12:05:40
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I wouldn't really call it 'slow and arduous' any more, any group that can actually clear the NMs can farm 8k+ a run, and solid groups are well past 10k now. You spend as long doing the NMs as you do in odyssey.

Look back to old school time-gated content like Proto-Ultima, where a shell that doesn't do proper splits would have been looking at potentially 3 weeks to get a single pop. They might not even have won that either, because they were willing to do content that wasn't a free handout. Yet, they still tried.

Now, we can't give up the results of a single 20h cooldown and 30 minute event because we might lose?
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By 2021-05-17 12:14:52
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-05-17 12:15:25
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3-4k in sheol-C after the post-25% boost is not even trying. I'll acknowledge that I may have exaggerated the numbers a bit for groups that don't have access to multiple weapon types, or proper buffers, etc. But, you really should not be sitting at 3-4k either.
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By 2021-05-17 12:18:06
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-05-17 12:18:50
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I have joined a few PUG before bonus was added and even then, never got under 5k
 
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By 2021-05-17 12:21:31
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By Shiva.Thorny 2021-05-17 12:30:48
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If an event where you get to stay constantly engaged against a variety of mobs and actively play isn't fun, what exactly is? Segment farming is the kind of event that's completely representative of the majority of content at 75(dyna, limbus, ein, exp, merits).

Is it more fun to sit there for 2 minutes idle receiving buffs, mash savage blade macro until mob falls over, then go back to town? I don't get it.
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 Asura.Bippin
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By Asura.Bippin 2021-05-17 12:32:43
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Of course a static group will be better, but that is how everything in this game is.

Even trying to segment farm if you can get 2-3 other people and PUG the rest can help a ton
 
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By 2021-05-17 12:34:21
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By Asura.Gotenn 2021-05-17 12:36:21
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
If an event where you get to stay constantly engaged against a variety of mobs and actively play isn't fun, what exactly is? Segment farming is the kind of event that's completely representative of the majority of content at 75(dyna, limbus, ein, exp, merits).

Is it more fun to sit there for 2 minutes idle receiving buffs, mash savage blade macro until mob falls over, then go back to town? I don't get it.

This is what I keep saying, and it really shows the difference in skill level when you are in pugs.
I'm usually on PLD weather on a fill in for a static, or a PUG, and I end up having to take command to keep people moving. Not moving is points lost, being indecisive or fighting the wrong mobs are a time killer.

If I say skip the casting skeletons, don't go and pull one after I've passed them. I guess this was more of a rant on a specific run, but I said "Lets skip most of floor 4 and get to the end, so we can farm the end mobs, and get our 25% bonus", and the "leader" started pulling mobs off the circle instead. (3500 points total for that run)
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-17 12:39:12
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
Now, we can't give up the results of a single 20h cooldown and 30 minute event because we might lose?
I see where you're tryin to get and I agree some people forgot how hard some things where and want things served to them on a silver platter only to whine a little after that they are bored and got nothing to do.
It's a vicious circle, you're absolutely right at pointing that out.

Still, I would like to emphasise that what was perfectly acceptable 10+ years ago isn't necessarily perfectly acceptable in 2021, times change, people change, standards change. I mean in general, aside from the constant whiners.


Things aren't all black or white, I think there can be several perfectly acceptable compromises between something that's too easy and something that's simply not acceptable for most people in 2021.
I don't have a crystal sphere to tell the future but I'm confident if the KI disappeared when you win instead of when you enter, a lot of people would be less scared.
You would still have to farm Segments.
You would still be under the 20hrs gating of Sheol A/B/C runs.
If you win nothing would change.
But if you lose things wouldn't feel so frustrating and "punishing".
Result? More people willing to cooperate, to try things out, to test things, nothing to lose but some of your time if things don't work out, right?

I think it would've been a much better compromise.



Edit:
I think an average of segments for a generic PUG group is more around 5.5 (average, not best).
Even if the number is lower the point you made sorta still stands though.
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By 2021-05-17 12:41:15
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-17 12:45:08
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XxArkelosxX said: »
I think segment farming gets redundant and boring. It's definitely not fun or engaging content at all. Zombie zerg fest at best...
I like it but I wish there was a bit more freedom in the setup (with very similar results in terms of efficiency).
Also I think the requirements (amount of segments farmed per time spent inside) were a bit too steep.
That paired with the fact that KIs don't stack made it all a bit too grindy for my tastes.

The latest patch with the 25% bonus at the end is a very much welcome step in the right direction if you ask me.
That works in synergy with the Amplifier (which cuts down the amount of times you have to kill a NM, hence cutting down the amount of segments you have to farm)
If they make KIs storeable like Omen we'll be in a very acceptable place I think.

I'm surprised they've been this "fast" to fix things, was expecting such changes like, what, 6 months from now or something.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-05-17 12:48:59
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XxArkelosxX said: »
I think segment farming gets redundant and boring. It's definitely not fun or engaging content at all. Zombie zerg fest at best...

There's 31 flavors of ice cream, not everything will be your favorite.

I myself have been doing Odyssey farms since the event came out, before Segments were a thing, completely solo. I know of a handful of players who did the same thing, religiously, every day through Sheol A-C. It was boring, dry, redundant, and seemingly unrewarding back then when there was no foreseeable end goal. I can say personally that Segment farms are definitely way more engaging and "fun" than doing those solo runs daily, and I would not trade anything to go back to that grind. It's hard to look at it with that perspective sometimes, but with the complete event out now, it's a lot more enjoyable than before. I also have been trying new jobs in segment farms, because it's fun. It makes very little difference in some cases.
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By Asura.Gotenn 2021-05-17 12:55:08
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I like it but I wish there was a bit more freedom in the setup (with very similar results in terms of efficiency).
Also I think the requirements (amount of segments farmed per time spent inside) were a bit too steep.
That paired with the fact that KIs don't stack made it all a bit too grindy for my tastes.

The latest patch with the 25% bonus at the end is a very much welcome step in the right direction if you ask me.
That works in synergy with the Amplifier (which cuts down the amount of times you have to kill a NM, hence cutting down the amount of segments you have to farm)
If they make KIs storeable like Omen we'll be in a very acceptable place I think.

I'm surprised they've been this "fast" to fix things, was expecting such changes like, what, 6 months from now or something.


Ive done plenty of different jobs as DD and done just fine, Its a matter of understanding which mobs you need to swap weapons for. DNC RNG THF PUP can all do good damage (obviously a WAR SAM DRK will do more). But you can still make 6k segments with other jobs. I find that Geo is lackluster only because of the requirement to move so much.

100% on the storable KI's like omen. My static alone had a hard time getting on every single day to either run, or pick up a tag, only to find out 1/6 players dont have two tags, to have to only do 1 run, then your worried about running a pug, because you wont have two tags tomorrow. 2 storable +1 on you makes it so its a 2x a week + 1 day of freedom event, and not a "crap I wasted getting segments because someone forgot to get a tag"
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2021-05-17 12:57:54
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Asura.Gotenn said: »
I find that Geo is lackluster only because of the requirement to move so much.

Hover Luopan.
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 Asura.Gotenn
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By Asura.Gotenn 2021-05-17 13:02:14
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Asura.Gotenn said: »
I find that Geo is lackluster only because of the requirement to move so much.

Hover Luopan.
If RNG can hover, so should GEO,

could you imagine if geo could use a job ability like cover, and attach their luopan to someone and make it follow them around.... like follow, not Indi. Here pld, Geo frailty luopon just follows me around.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2021-05-17 13:09:15
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The "try different jobs" and "different setups" in Segments farming run falls under the same effect of the "people are scared to try things in Gaol" I described above.
You need segments so much that you wanna squeeze every little more bit you can get, so that you can do more NMs without having to wait 20 more hours for yet another repetition of Segments and so on.

The recent changes have made things a bit more relaxing, but I'm sure if the number of segments you got was a little bit more "even" instead of a difference between 3,5k and 10k, people would be more trying to go with different setups or jobs.

I'm glad things are better now given the latest changes. I hope they keep making little tweaks like those even more so that people will be able to break the cycle by going with different jobs every now and then without feeling like they're wasting too much.
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 Asura.Gotenn
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By Asura.Gotenn 2021-05-17 13:16:58
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I agree, kind of like how Ambu V1VD is, if your only a decent group, or a group with a not-ideal setup, it takes you 15 min to clear, where the ideal, 5 song SV, bolster groups are doing it in 5 min. Maybe thats the key, increase the segments per mob, and cap it at 10k per run. Fast/Strong groups will just hit floor 1 halo, and go up, where slower more "diverse" groups will farm floor 1/2/3 and get the same amount. Fast groups finish in 18 minutes, goto the end and leave, slow groups just have to farm the whole 30 minutes.
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 Asura.Syto
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By Asura.Syto 2021-05-17 14:28:44
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I could be entirely wrong here, but I think people would've been more willing to extensively test alternative strategies and approaches if you didn't need a KI for every player every time you fail an attempt and if that KI wasn't bound behind a content that you can't do more than once every 20hrs.


As far as I'm concerned Mboze can go die in a fire, now that I'm done with it I'm not touching that thing again on V15 until they nerf it or a new efficient and reliable strategy is found.


Hmmm a fire burning strategy...

Reminds me of Mboze’s Theme Song...

YouTube Video Placeholder


 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2021-05-17 14:36:38
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Shiva.Thorny said: »
I wouldn't really call it 'slow and arduous' any more, any group that can actually clear the NMs can farm 8k+ a run, and solid groups are well past 10k now. You spend as long doing the NMs as you do in odyssey.

Look back to old school time-gated content like Proto-Ultima, where a shell that doesn't do proper splits would have been looking at potentially 3 weeks to get a single pop. They might not even have won that either, because they were willing to do content that wasn't a free handout. Yet, they still tried.

Now, we can't give up the results of a single 20h cooldown and 30 minute event because we might lose?
Yes the difference is you had other stuff to do on top of that grind which was fine they had tons of gear you could chase. You yourself have said this is the only piece of new endgame content to do. People aren't asking for free hand out people wanna do the content.

You say proper splits but even that required the same setups more or less. People are doing that and doing optimal runs yet others don't like it. The idea to give people more chances to test and play with setups as again like you SE and others have said would require you to play with setups. People aren't scared they just value time they have unlike us back in the day who would give up 24hrs to fight stuff like PW. End of the day if you can't see that for what it is then it just sounds like you don't wanna see that.
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By SimonSes 2021-05-17 15:29:17
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Asura.Sechs said: »
As far as I'm concerned Mboze can go die in a fire, now that I'm done with it I'm not touching that thing again on V15 until they nerf it or a new efficient and reliable strategy is found.

What's so horrible about Mboze? Subtle blow and mewing or zerg with Rampart should make it rather easy no? Are people just try to zerg it without Rampart and Subtle Blow or something?
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 Bahamut.Justthetip
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By Bahamut.Justthetip 2021-05-17 16:01:21
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SimonSes said: »
Asura.Sechs said: »
As far as I'm concerned Mboze can go die in a fire, now that I'm done with it I'm not touching that thing again on V15 until they nerf it or a new efficient and reliable strategy is found.

What's so horrible about Mboze? Subtle blow and mewing or zerg with Rampart should make it rather easy no? Are people just try to zerg it without Rampart and Subtle Blow or something?
Because even with all that its not 100% win over my group got hit with 3 timbers in less than a minute ***ain't fun at times. We got the win but it wasn't worth the headache when i can watch people feeding tp for days and not get a single timber lol
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By Bahamut.Belkin 2021-05-17 16:27:43
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SimonSes said: »
What's so horrible about Mboze? Subtle blow and mewing or zerg with Rampart should make it rather easy no? Are people just try to zerg it without Rampart and Subtle Blow or something?

A lot can go wrong and the margin for error is really slim. Two TP moves reset hate. Get yourself caught out of position even once and the DD is dead for whatever reason. The answer CAN be to slow down (turn or disengage for a few seconds), but you also have to worry about timing out, especially when paired with Attack Down. If you are using Fusenaikyo, your DPS is pretty shite compared to using Masamune.

Rampart zerg can sometimes only take you so far based on other factors like slowing down, random deal not hitting, DD dying for whatever reason. Tank could eat a Timber into an immediate double attack crit that he didn't block and he is just dead and you can't do anything about it. Even with yaegasumi, bolster, and SV songs, zerging isn't necessarily quick. It'll still take a couple minutes once it's under 50%.

I will reiterate, a lot can go wrong, even using the most effective tactic available.
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