Best Sword Combinations Now?

so the Thibron (TP Bonus+1000) ? or (WSD+10%) ?

confused on that single fact.

TP bonus. The wsd+10% is trash

Yes "tiz/thib" 99% of the time means "r15 Tizona w/ Thibron tp bonus +1000 off hand." Sequence/Thib and Naegling/Thib spamming Savage Blade will both be better than using r0 Tiz/Thib spamming Expiacion in terms of raw damage.

Are you sure about that? I mean just using numbers from previous page:


Tizona/Thibron - 8416.933
Tizona/Sequence - 6802.085
Sequence/Thibron - 6793.892
Tizona/Almace - 6759.280
Tizona/Naegling - 6681.377
Naegling/Thibron - 6636.716
Sequence/Naegling - 6529.701
Sequence/Almace - 6511.561
Naegling/Sequence - 5360.876
Naegling/Almace - 5192.411

How big is the boost to Tizona from R0 to R15? 15% Bonus to WS from augment and base damage is something around 19%. Bonus to white damage is probably around 7%. Overall bonus to DPS is probably around 17%.

If you take away that bonus from 8416.93 that you listed for R15Tiz/Thib, we get 7193. That would still be significantly above both Naegling/Thib and Sequence/Thib. So unless you want to argue with your own numbers, you are wrong. EDIT ups sorry confused you with someone else :D Im sorry. Still if you want to argue those numbers feel free to do so :) EDIT2 Actually you commented that you have almost the same numbers in your sheet, so we are back to arguing with your own numbers :D

Edit2: r0 Tiz/Thib is 6887 dps using this sheet (had wrong base damage entered for r0 Tiz originally). Perhaps it doesn't pass the *** test but I put r0 Tiz into the spreadsheet and got 6290 dps. Spreadsheet calculates 42562 avg expiacion at r15 vs 32545 at r0, with 3435 of that difference coming from the +18 base dmg difference alone. This leaves ~20% damage increase from the +15% r15 bonus which is about right (49.5% at r15 total bonus to expiacion vs 30% at r0).

Also I'm not sure what Savage Blade set Shozo uses but I get 7211 dps for Sequence/Thib spamming SB vs 7257 for Naegling/Thib (I had to specifically add in the 15% bonus to SB from Naegling as the spreadsheet didn't include it baseline). Shozo's expiacion numbers are identical to mine though. Spreadsheets don't account for TP overflow in any realistic way though so the numbers for Seq/Thib are likely overinflated compared to Naeg/Thib.

Edit: In case you were interested: the spreadsheet calculates r0 -> r15 increases melee damage (white hits) by ~12%. This is exactly what you'd expect (147+18)/147=1.12.

Doesnt have much sense.

18 * 3.35 pdif (assuming /war) * 1.495 R15 bonus * ~20 (fTP on main hit multiplied by WSD on gear + additional hits fTP . It's a blind avg. at 2250TP. It can be a little higher but wouldnt make much difference here) = ~1802
That's like a half of what you get. Am I missing something?


Doesn't make sense either. It's simply a 15% bonus. If you are doing avg 30k before that 15% WSD augment, you should be doing 34.5k (15% more) with that augment, not 20% more. So 32545 * 1.15 is 37426.

You might want to double check the sheet.

Expiacion damage bonus goes from 1.3 (30% bonus) at r0 to 1.495 at r15 (1.3*1.15), aka a 19.5% additive increase.

You are confused there I think.

When augmenting came out, people were worried it will be additive to current relic/empy bonuses. So that 15% on mythic would actually be overall lower total damage increase because it would be added to 30% bonus from mythic, but it isn't. It's an unique 15% multiplier. Which means it boosts your WS number by 15%.

Now people to make it simpler in sheets or to show difference between R15 mythic and non mythic multiply those both bonuses 1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495 to show it as one number and overall 49.5% increase to associated Weaponskill.

Now you are taking that difference of 19.5% and trying to say R15 boost your WS numbers over R0 by almost 20%, which is a no no no.

It's still exactly a 15% increase going from R0 to R15 (excluding base damage ofc).

EDIT: To make it even more simple on numbers:

23075 Expiacion without any bonuses
23075 * 1.3 = ~30k with 30% bonus at R0
23075 * 1.495 = ~34.5k with 49.5% bonus at R15

(42562 - 32545)/32545 = ~.308 total difference between r0 and r15

3435 is the difference between r0 exp damage and r15 exp damage BEFORE mythic/r15 bonuses but AFTER applying +18 base dmg according to the spreadsheet. (I can't easily see how this number is so high though: I get at best a ~5% increase from +18 dmg)

3435/32545 = ~.105
∴ the rest of the r15 aug (IGNORING base dmg +18) accounts for ~.203 of the difference ADDITIVELY.

Now if you truly don't understand the semantic difference between additive multiplier arithmetic and multiplicative multiplier arithmetic then I can explain in more detail, or you can take my word for it that the ADDITIVE difference between 30k and 34.5k is ~.195 when the BASE is 23k (as in your example).

Edit: To make it simpler (and make this post more informative), on the spreadsheet:
(1) r0 Expiacion damage BEFORE multiplying by 1.3 = 25034.92
(2) r0 Expiacion damage AFTER multiplying by 1.3 = 32545

(3) r15 Exp dmg BEFORE multiplying by 1.495 = 28469.88
(4) r15 Exp dmg AFTER multiplying by 1.495 = 42562

Subtracting (3) from (1) gives the amount contributed by the +18 base dmg before mythic/r15 multipliers. (I don't see how this number is so high, although Simon's approximation is way off base).

Oh I exactly know what additive and multiplicative means.
I have no idea why you are trying to present 15% multiplier as 19.5% additive bonus tho. There is no benefits of talking about it this way. Also please stop making this personal or we will soon have a shitstorm only instead of learning anything.

Anyway..

32545 is your number for R0 Expiacion yes?
42562 is your number for R15 Expiacion yes?
32545 + 3435 = 35980 is your number for R0 Expiacion with 18 more base damage?
Then after applying 15% bonus from R15 you should get 35980 * 1.15 = 41377. Still lower than 42562. 42562/35980 is 18.3% increase.

So again this doesn't look correct at all.

Also 3435 increase with just R0 30% bonus has even less sense now. I calculated it should be around ~1802 with R15 bonus. With R0 it should be around ~1566, so 3435 looks like giant *** up.

No it's not. You simply make it very hard to understand what that 3435 was, but now I understand you and I just took different approach than you.

You want to take that 18 base damage and check how much % increase it should be over not having them, by compering it vs WSC, old base and fSTR.

I dont know your WSC, fSTR so I cant do that. What I could do is simply check a real damage that 18 base damage can provide for capped attack Expiacion. What I did wrong was that I added mythic bonus because I misunderstood you.

So before mythic and R15 bonuses 18 base damage should produce around 1200 damage, while you are getting almost 3x more.

Actually I just realized the spreadsheet is pretty much spot on: except I had the wrong base damage entered for r0 Tizona (was using non-ag tiz numbers) the whole time LOL.

Here are the correct numbers:
r0 Tiz
dps - 6887
avg Expiacion - 35326

Exp dmg before mythic bonus - 27173

+18 Base DMG accounts for 1296 or 4.8% (pretty much what I expected).

Just to be clear: the number I posted above for r0 Tiz/Thib (6290 dps) should be 6887 dps.

This doesn't actually change the fact that r0 Tiz/Thib spamming Expiacion is less damage than Naegling/Thib (7257) or Seq/Thib (7211) spamming SB though, just closes the gap between them by more than half.

Looking at more numbers you provided.

If you have
~4 fSTR
148 base
~134 WSC
= ~286 total

Then 25034 (Expiacion without mythic/R15) divided by 3.35 pDIF, shows that your fTP would need to be around ~26.13

I wonder how you got it that high? How much WSD you have in your gear. Normally without DM augment it should be around 54% (58% if you use SoA ring).

2250TP Expiacion has 10.099 fTP on first hit, so with WSD it would be 15.538 . You have 2.0 more fTP guaranteed from 2nd hit and sub hand hit. So it's 17.538 fTP, then the rest is from MA proc, but I have no idea how it can reach 26 on average for your sheet >.>

I wont even start the idea that fTP based on sub hand hits and MA proc from that hand, while using Thibron are far less valuable than fTP from main hand.

So like you see my approximation was actually very close even that I didn't know fTP you was getting in your sheet.

I still don't understand how you get that much fTP on that Expiacion. Unless I'm missing some other factor here?

To answer your original question SimonSes: Yes, I am sure (after this conversation at least) that Sequence (7211 dps) and Naeg (7257) w/ Thib OH are higher damage combos than r0 Tiz/Thib (6887); and r15 Tiz/Thib (8203) is about a ~20% boost over r0 Tiz/Thib.

According to your sheet, which still doesn't have sense.
You have 20.4% increase to avg WS (42562/35326).
You said you have 12% increase in white damage.
So total increase should be between 12% and 20.4% (closer to 20.4% because the damage distribution is heavily towards WS), but it's somehow ~22.2%

Maybe you have uncapped accuracy on that target with Thibron and +30 accuracy boost from R15 augment helps with that? That's the only solution I can think of.

You probably don't remember the part where I was merely adding to Shozo's list (because someone asked), and am now responding to your question about r0 tiz/thib vs naeg/thib and seq/thib.

8417 dps comes from Shozo's r15 Tiz/Thib number.

8203 dps (19.1% over r0) is what my r15 Tiz/Thib sheet spits out, the difference appears to be fighter's roll (with the above 42562 avg Expiacion damage which is ~89% of total damage).

I'm not sure why you care to split hairs over insignificant differences but I certainly do not care any longer. We are just making this thread far less readable. Feel free to PM me if you are honestly confused about something.

_______________
Edit: Not making a new post, but to clear up any misconception someone may have when attempting to parse the results of this discussion: the numbers given previously for comparative sword dps rankings are all within believable ranges.

Unfortunately these numbers are useless for you, Simon, as 8203/8667 = 1.191 (19.1% increase r0-r15) is too far from what you think the number should be (19.4%). I appreciate the “enlightening” exchange.

If 89% of damage is increased by 20.4% and 11% of damage is increased by 12%, then overall damage should goes up by 19.4%, not by 22.2% and it's not splitting hairs.

If you doesn't care to fix your own sheet to have it work better for you, then I don't care either and we can finish this here.

Hmmm I would imagine that Naegling/Sequence would be your best bet unless you’re in need of Accuracy in which case Luhlaza Sub works as long as it’s Acc from it’s primary description works in both hands.

This combination will give you a decent Savage Blade Engine to wreck things especially if you have COR buffs. Some might argue to main Sequence for the TP Bonus but BLU tends to Overflow naturally in current gears so I’m not sure how much value that truly has.

Tizona AG Is a stronger option but you already stated what you’re working with.

Hope it helps.

I use Sequence/Zantetsuken for most everything on BLU atm. Making offhand Thibron is a goal. Tizona is a dream.