April 2019 Version Update

If they make RUN weaker then it's just tanking with a WAR and run won't ever gets used again outside of G/R with smn.

All PLD needs is some sort of self target high hate generation about that can be spammed like foil, seriously that's it. I'd like to go one step further and give them Fencer V with Fencer granting 10% JA Haste like Hasso so that they could have some sort of offensive output.

In the overall comparison between the two PLD takes less damage and is harder to kill, RUN has far superior hate tools and can actually deal damage. If a fight doesn't need the Wall that Shall Not Be Moved, then RUN is the better choice for tank.

No. People bring RUN because it holds enmity better, protects party members, it is practically unkillable AND it can punch out big *** numbers which people like.

The other big thing is to unfuck Burtgang.

Epeo really is the key to be honest.

Burtgang needs something on top of its PDT II, and Atonement is just ***.

Make Atonement comparable to Dimidiation, and make Burtgang have something like:

'Augments Rampart' or 'Sentinal applies to all party members' or something.

PDT II is no longer a JSE stat, so how come Plds mythic doesnt 'feel' like a mythic. Every other job gets something dope, but Burtgang was basically shelved as 'taru sized epeo'

It holds enmity better largely because of better damage. Both protect party members, run doesnt really do it better. (and run can lose enmity much faster than pld ever will because PLD wont take nearly as much spike damage and lose all of its volatile enmity instantly, where as RUN can)

Like i said, big damage numbers is pretty much the sole reason RUN outshines PLD. Giving PLD better damage will just make RUN worthless.

Tbh, id prefer they just remove the DT II from all tank REMAs and put it elsewhere, or give a valid non REMA option to obtain DT II. Tank jobs are pretty much mandatory, and its practically required (at least on pld) to have them in order for them to even be viable. Requiring a REMA to function is putting the cart before the horse.

Burtang and Epeo are fundamentally the exact same, bother provide PDT II and AM3. RUN's use that AM3 to power a hybrid tank mode where they can build TP decently fast, why do PLD's not do the same? Hybrid Epeo RUN's have the same haste values that PLD's do.

Once again, no lol. RUN holds enmity wayyyy better than PLD without even doing damage. It has the ability to spam all sorts of spells and enmity tools such as Liement and Valiance AoE reaching absurdly high VE/CE numbers if more than 2-3 people are touched by it.

You literally mustn't have seen RUN be played right if you think big *** numbers are the only reason it's preferred.

And pld can generate plenty of initial enmity itself. Pld isnt losing hate to DDs because it lacks enmity options, its losing hate to DDs because at capped enmity DDs will take mob attention first, just by nature of how enmity works when hate is capped.

Between gear, crusade and sentinel, pld isnt hurting for enmity generation. You can spam Cures on yourself with HP+ sets if you need constant enmity generation.

No it doesn't, not unless your fighting low iLevel battles where tanking isn't really needed anyway.

RUN's hold hate better because they have 3 spamable hate tools, one of which works on anything within 30 yalms. The typical rotation is Flash -> Stun -> Foil -> Back to Flash. Haste reduces those recast timers to the point where one is almost always up. PLD on the other hand has Flash and that's it. Everything else PLD has is on a JA timer that can't be reduced, further most PLD's suck balls and still go /WAR to everything instead of /DRK and miss out on access to their second spamable hate tool, Stun.

When it comes to damage, the amount of enmity damage generates is greatly effected by the level difference between the DD (99) and the target. On 135+ targets tanks have a far easier job holding hate, at least until the DD's reach cap and then there is nothing that can be done regardless of the tank job.


PLD builds enmity slower, much slower, because it's hate tools are on long JA timers. We can indeed get a big jump at the start, but without sustained enmity generation the DD's will overtake the PLD sooner rather then later. This is why I tell PLD's to go /DRK and rotate Flash -> Stun and back again, it's not as good as RUN's rotation but it's better then just standing there waiting on JA timers with a single spell.

You literally must never have played with good DDs if they take that long to pull hate from a PLD... PLd's enmity generation sucks *** compared to RUN's. There is no comparison, RUN is better at everything PLD does, even super tanking with Aettir... PLD is dogshit nowadays. There is 0 reason to bring a PLD to anything cos of how much better RUN is at everything.

And again, sentinel, voke, flash, self cures, crusade.... Pld isnt starved for enmity. Pld gets far more innate +enmity than Run does.

That, or i dont play with garbage plds? You know. One of the two.

You aren't very smart so imma stop lol

It's like you didn't even read...


And Voke is ***enmity, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP USING IT. Seriously, biggest mistake PLD's make is going /WAR. Capped haste like everyone else, spam Flash -> Stun and the occasional JA whenever they are up.

That is a lie. People preferred PLD over RUN for a long period of time despite RUN offering superior DPS and Rayke/ Gambit were also incredibly useful for the content at the time (People were BLM burning)

People are just dumb. Honestly though if the RUN can live the same fight and make it go quicker, why wouldn't you prefer RUN? Bringing a PLD just to make the WHMs job easier sounds dumb.

Hmm PLD still takes damage better, it's literally the Wall That Can Not Be Moved. Problem is, we very rarely need that level these days as support exists. Tanking has become more dynamic and PLD in it's current state is too static.

I thought blu was the go to sub for pld, stun enmity values just that much better i guess?

People preferred PLD over RUN because RUN is harder to play. It takes more skill than PLD, but in return it is just better overall. Even to this day, over half of the people who play RUN don't know who to actually play it.

Literally the only thing run has over pld is damage and enfeebling resists.

People prefer run because its tanky enough, so more damage is more damage. Zerg mentality.

This is FFXI.

Nearly every job at this point 'requires a REMA to function'

But thats not the point.

The point is about the 'ceiling' each job has. Because those are the only numbers that truly matter.

If I have 5 'capped' RUN LFP and 100 'capped' PLD LFP as well, Im gonna take the RUN atm because it innately has a higher ceiling of potential than a PLD does.

It doesnt matter if there's a million mediocre RUN and a million mediocre PLD.

That one top geared REMA tier PLD vs that one top geared REMA Run, who both sent me a tell, are going to be who I weigh against each other.

So, Epeo vs Burtgang TRULY is the comparison.

And Epeo wins by a long shot. Run's AM3 weaponskill actually puts out very strong numbers, whereas atonemont is hot garbage. Its debatable whether waiting for Burtgang's AM3 is actually worth the DPS loss of missing 2 savage blades. It is but.... not by a lot.

Whereas Dimidiation is a hard hitting weaponskill, so a RUN doesn't really 'lose' much popping off a 3K Dimidiation for that AM3.

As for keeping hate...

I have no issues holding hate on my paladin at all. Popping off 25K Savage Blades is no problem, I havent even really needed to use Flash or Voke this months Ambu either.

Literally just spamming Savage blade has been enough to keep hate, and often is on VD Ambu and up.

Problem THERE are way too many paladins TPing in 5/5 Souv+1 gear and confused why they cant keep hate as all their attacks miss and they WS once for every 20 DPS WSes.

Not knowing when to use Turtle gear vs when to go Hybrid is what seperates the garbage Pld from the good.

Go put on a proper TP hybrid set with capped acc and respectable attack/DA, go get a proper REMA weapon (any will do) and spam the *** off Savage blade.

You won't have enmity issues if you just git gud.

But thats not the problem here, is it.

The problem, as I said, was that Run can do all of that, except better.

Paladin's can hold hate. They have decent resist. They have the enmity. They can do dps.

But Run can hold hate better, can resist better, and can dps better

And have better mitigation too.

Let's be real here and address the facts.

Burtgang, when it originally came out, had PDT II as its 'JSE' stat that made it 'special'

Why the *** does a different Mythic weapon, Epeo, have more PDT II than the PDT II Mythic, and why does it also have a really dope JSE effect to boot?

"Here you go Pld"

"Wow, PDT II, is this my special stat?!"

"Oh yeah sure, except we also gave 25% to Run on top of their JSE effect"

"Wait so... what is my JSE effect I get on my mythic?"

"Haha... ha nothing I guess, get ***"

"Well at least I get a cool weaponskill I can hit hard with, right?!"

"..."

sad

omg i best stop before people other than me think you're HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.

And valliance, and foil, and one for all, and rayke, and gambit, and pflug, and liement/aoe liement, and battuta

All generate moderate hate, with aoes generating that same hate per player hit

Can we all just agree that Paladin is ***and how unfortunate that is.

Oh god right, Rayke and Gambit are also pretty important to mention.

Paladin definitely needs some kind of Physical zerg buffing effects. Give us some way to inflict Defense Down, Skillchain Damage Taken+, etc.

Tp Bonus to party as an AoE buff would be dope, I could see that easily fitting into Paladin's aesthetic. Think Shiva's buff.

I would enjoy if Paladin sat well with a melee zerg style game plan, and Rune fencer shone in a Magic damage zerg via Rayke+Gambit

That way both tanks have a party strat they shine in, and there isn't a 'best' tank.

If you plan to magic burst, nuke, etc, go with Run.

If you plan to melee zerg, go Paladin.

PLD has maybe 25 more Enmity+ on gear compared to RUN if you are part of an unpopular Unity, which basically nobody ever is. Both jobs have Crusade and Flash, Foil > self-cures for Enmity. Lastly, PLD has 4-5 useful Enmity JAs while RUN has 6 plus Stun and high damage.

How is PLD in a good spot for Enmity assuming you are playing with top tier DDs?

Yeah I mentioned a buff to PLD's melee zerg utility on the previous page of this thread. A physical debuff effect on Shield Bash or Divine Emblem would make the most sense, I think, as a counterpart to Gambit/Rayke.

Sentinel. You are forgetting Sentinel. +100 enmity for 30 seconds (which you then pop off all your other skills)

Divine Emblem > Sentinel > Flash > Voke > War Cry > Holy Circle > Palisade > Shield Bash > Rampart > Fealty > Flash (Again)

Thats my opening ROTA, order doesn't super matter but I try and make sure Rampart is popped off last, since generally it doesn't matter until the fight gets deeper.

Once all that is done, I just spam the *** off Savage blade.

With Sentinel up, you effectively generate double hate. Thats the key.

A lot of stupid paladins pop off all their cooldown effects and save sentinel for last, and are confused they cant keep hate.

Sentinel ALWAYS goes first. I have had numerous times playing non-tank where I saw that and sent them a tell and they were like "Oh I never knew Sentinel was so important"

Sentinel is on a 4-5 min recast and /WAR isn't great for tanking. If you are doing any kind of content where your initial spike Enmity doesn't matter much, i.e. multiple sets of adds, then you can't burn everything during Sentinel or you're left with nothing. If you're on PLD/BLU, your damage is lackluster.

Foil is spammable and is affected by Haste. And RUN/DRK can both single target and AoE tank while always keeping their damage intact.