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Dev Tracker - Discussion
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5857
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2025-09-08 09:20:46
I dont give a ***about the hurdles someones 50th account is facing because their 49 previous accounts all got banned for the same thing.
Shiva.Thorny
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 3482
By Shiva.Thorny 2025-09-08 09:23:03
The hurdle argument is being made by people who've already passed the hurdle 5x and keep doing it on mules. I'm gonna repeat myself: An hour killing some dyna dreamland bosses isn't a hurdle for new players. It's playing the game. There's nothing tedious about it and it has very low gear requirements.
It's tedious for people who want to churn out many mules and can't code. I don't think it's even that big a deal for someone making legitimate mules.
The 45 day block, idk. It certainly isn't a real deterrant to RMT or multiboxers, just annoying. I think the best argument in favor of it is that it reduces the likelihood a new player will skip all the content the game has to offer, buy a few ody merc clears, then quit.
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2025-09-08 09:38:19
I mean. The whole experience is irritating. (disclaimer, I haven't done ANY dynamis in like 10 years)
You go to a zone, you can't get a bijou because theres bots killing every nm. You finally get one, it doesn't drop. It's just *** annoying for no reason. And Beaucidene nms SUCK balls, theres 100 of em but they're all lotto.
"asura problems"
The dreamlands are at least better, any low level mob drops the bijou
You "need" to be thf for the TH, so that's another job you need to 99 when you just want to play the game. (they made it easier to get TH4 with DM but new players aren't spamming reisen mobs for augs)((you never know which THF trusts ACTUALLY have TH either))
If you could just enter, pop the mob, and leave, it'd be fine.
(oh and diabolos is really dumb. get unlucky and pop the wrong one ugh you get charmed you lose trusts then you get hyperslept, annoying)
AND! You can't even level up the gear unless you've been to sea.
[+]
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 773
By Asura.Melliny 2025-09-08 09:59:15
Regarding this post and the commentary from the dev team
if enough NA people went to the extreme to cancel subs over this, would SE even get the memo?
So two things:
It's blatantly obvious that a threat from upper management was made to cut the budget of XI over the last couple of years bfore Matsui left, if revenue did not improve (inflation is destroying the profit margin of the game, and has been for years), that is why Matsui tried to make VR (when it is blatantly obvious they did not have the budget to make it to the standard they are usually made) and shilled merch so hard for a couple of years. They were trying to boost revenue, it didn't end up making enough of a difference and Yoshida cut the budget of the game anyway.
That is why Matsui stepped down from the game when he intended to stay with it till retirement, he didn't do it because he wanted to. Matsui was offered to go work on ff14 14 years ago and he turned it down because he wanted to keep 11 going, so he took over producer role. He was literally moved off 11 and is now working on some shitty unknown "mobile game" till retirement because JP companies can't lay people off, and he needs to hang in to get his pension. He fell on his sword to save the game, and because he refused to lay anyone else off he was in charge of.
This is why Fujito was so salty when he took over and was talking the way he was when he was talking about worrying about the developers careers, and why he can't hire anyone else. Cause they don't have the budget to hire anyone else anymore.
Yoshida recently made a post complaining about people modding ff14, and how it was costing them money (players mod cash shop stuff and use an addon so other players can see everyone elses mods). How inflation was really destructive and only the cash shop allows them to continue funding ff14. Now imagine a game with no cash shop and less players if this is his mindset.
This is not to say the game is on the verge of being shut down, but it's obvious the devs were not happy about losing someone from a close knit team.
ff14 statement from Yoshida: (bolded part half way down)
Hello, everyone. Producer and Director Naoki Yoshida here. I'd like to address the recent feedback and discussion among the community regarding in-game mods.
This post is not meant to target any one mod specifically, but I'd like to touch on the general subject of mods, their use, and the culture surrounding them. I thank you in advance for your understanding.
Firstly, while I am in charge of FFXIV, I am also a PC gamer, and have been for many years. I've spoken about this multiple times in the past, but my own personal stance regarding mods─that I do tolerate them─has not changed.
In the past twenty or so years, I've seen numerous positive examples of games with fan-made mods that expand upon existing gameplay.
However, these mods are generally created with a vital premise in mind: they are for personal use only, and the individual player is responsible for the mods they use. Furthermore, the mods must not impact the core game, its services, or the intended game design in a negative manner. I personally feel that these rules should be followed by all mod creators and users.
That being said, if players continue to uphold the above premise of mods enhancing one's personal enjoyment of the game and acknowledge that they are taking responsibility for what they download, I personally see no reason to track down or investigate gamers for the general use of mods.
Of course, from my position leading FFXIV, I still feel that it is vital for players to follow our user agreement and other rules. Additionally, I'd like to stress the importance that players follow two rules: that their style of gameplay does not infringe upon others, and that they do not negatively impact the core game, its services, or intended game design, as mentioned above.
It is my sincerest hope that everyone can continue playing FFXIV, as well as other PC games, in ways that are enjoyable to them.
Below, I'd like to elaborate on what "infringing upon others" and "negatively impacting the intended game design" entail. These are merely examples, so I don't mind if you skip over them. Please keep in mind that these theoretical examples do not single out any particular mod. Furthermore, this is not a criticism of those who create or use mods─the following is meant to deepen everyone’s understanding of our stance on this matter.
Altering Item and Character Appearances
In FFXIV, we have several extremely high-end duties that challenge players to their limit, known as Ultimate raids. To defeat the enemies within these raids, players must dedicate a significant amount of time and effort. As their reward for clearing, they earn the title of "Legend," as well as job-specific weapons with specialized visual effects.
Let's say Player A loves Ultimate raids and is motivated to challenge them at every opportunity. After they clear, they proudly equip their new title and weapon as proof of their party's diligent efforts to earn them.
Meanwhile, we have Player B, who makes use of a specific mod. This mod allows them to bypass the conditions for obtaining in-game items, making it possible for them to equip any item in the game (including items that must be purchased with real money). Player B is busy with work, and although they have the motivation, their circumstances prevent them from progressing through any of the Ultimate raids. They decide instead to install a mod, so that they can at least see what it looks like to have their own character equipped with one of the Ultimate raid weapons.
Player B uses said mod to equip a set of items, which only displays on their client's screen. To other players, Player B's model is only wearing default gear, but on Player B's monitor, they're equipped with a dazzling Ultimate weapon. They take a screenshot of their character and decide to use it as their desktop background.
In this case, Player A has followed the rules of the game and worked hard with their party to clear the Ultimate raid, earning themselves a weapon and a title as evidence of their feat. When other players come across Player A using their title and Ultimate weapon, they see a “Legend” who has overcome one of the game’s most punishing duties. On the other hand, should they encounter Player B, they would simply see a character with their default gear.
Let’s imagine a scenario in which Player A and B cross paths in-game. On Player B’s screen, Player A appears with their brand-new title and Ultimate weapon─the same weapon that they appear to themselves as having equipped. Conversely, on Player A’s screen, Player A appears with their title and hard-won weapon, while Player B appears in their default gear.
In other words, Player A sees the rewards each player has earned fairly within the context of the game’s rules. Player B sees a modified version of the game, but these changes are visible only to Player B themselves, and thus fall within the realm of individual enjoyment. (Please note that this is not intended as a judgment on the virtue of one approach versus the other.)
Similarly, if a player chooses to install a mod, the risk of encountering a computer virus, for example, is borne by the individual. Additionally, mods that do not adversely affect other players, and which ensure visual changes are only visible to the individual user, can be said to narrowly maintain the integrity of the game’s design─although, of course, this is open to interpretation.
However, if a mod was updated and its changes became visible not just to the individual mod user, but to other players too, what would the implications be? Player A (with their title and gear earned from hours of concerted effort with their friends) and Player B (with their mod-derived gear), are now on a level playing field, so to speak. This development may not concern Player B, but for Player A, it considerably negates the cooperation, time, and effort invested, not to mention the pride they might have felt in their achievement. After all, their rewards are now available to anyone with the mod installed, albeit lacking the corresponding in-game attributes.
In this example, other players have been infringed upon, and the intended design of the game has been negatively impacted. Although Player B may have been unaware of the mod’s precise functionality, their usage has diminished other players’ motivation and circumvented the game’s systems. Even if the creator of the mod simply intended for players to readily access and enjoy their favorite gear, they have detrimentally affected both the game and the wider player community.
In response, our only options would be to ask that players cease using the mod, or to request that the mod creator removes the functionality causing the problem. Of course, we could also implement preventative measures in-game, but this would divert programming resources from other areas, potentially damaging the enjoyment of other players in the long run.
The scenario outlined above is just one example, but I hope it helps clarify the differences between mod usage within the realm of individual enjoyment, and mod usage which is damaging to the game itself. Some players might ask “well, what about a mod which only makes changes visible to other users of the same mod?” The issue is that any mod which makes changes visible to others requires the manipulation or rewriting of game files, which is fundamentally even more problematic and destructive.
Even supposing that this theoretical mod provided generous improvements to the game and was well received by all players, the moment a problematic feature is introduced to said mod, we must insist that players stop using it.
Another example of such a feature: a mod that allows players to freely equip optional items and display them to others. What does that say to the players who go through the trouble of saving up to purchase these goods from the FFXIV Online Store? Are these players losing out by not using a mod?
Some may say that Square Enix is to blame for trying to make money by demanding that players spend extra on optional items. We operate our servers and data centers twenty-four hours a day, three-hundred-sixty-five days a year with the hope that our players can enjoy a reliable gaming experience. Currently, global inflation is taking its toll at a rapid pace, driving up server electricity costs, the cost of land, and even the price of servers themselves. We do not want to increase subscription fees for players, if at all possible─but keeping our game running requires sufficient income. If we start creating a deficit, FFXIV may no longer be able to operate. This is an example of damage dealt to the services we provide.
In these cases as well, we ask that players refrain from using such mods, or remove the offending function from the mod itself. I personally understand that modding culture is rooted in good intentions, but we are given no choice but to act if mods even incidentally threaten player motivation or the viability of our services.
Let's consider another theoretical mod: one that displays your character entirely naked. If this presentation is displayed only on the user's screen, that might fall into the category of personal use and responsibility. (Bear in mind that this is my personal interpretation, and not a discussion of whether that behavior is right or wrong.) However, if the user posts a screenshot of their naked character publicly on social media, FFXIV itself may be subject to legal measures by regulators in certain countries.
Laws that regulate the content of video games grow stricter by the year. These laws are there to protect minors and for a variety of other reasons, but the fact remains that they are tangibly becoming stricter. We have a duty to provide our services in adherence to the laws of all countries where FFXIV is available, and if we are unable to do so, the distribution of our game can be prohibited. This is another example of damage dealt to our services.
Allow me to repeat myself when I say that I do not intend for these examples to be a censure of mod users or creators. I only wish to provide some tangible examples of how using certain mods can damage other players, FFXIV, and the services we provide, regardless of the mod's original intent.
As always, we will do our utmost to keep creating a world which all players can enjoy. Even though it may take time to do so, it is my hope to incorporate player feedback and officially fulfill as many functionality requests as possible. I am also considering how to increase the freedom of choice players have in the gear they choose to equip.
While paying respect to the long-standing tradition of modding PC games, I ask that all players in turn respect our game by enjoying their fun within the confines of some basic rules.
With that business aside, I was very pleased to announce the next Fan Festival yesterday, on the twelfth anniversary of FFXIV. This wouldn't have been possible without you, our players. Thank you all so much for your support thus far, and we hope to have the pleasure of your company as we continue along this incredible journey for years to come.
(And one more thing: for those wondering what comes after the Japan Fan Fest...while I can't give any details just yet, rest assured you won't have to wait long.)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Producer & Director
Naoki Yoshida
Secondly
Like, what do people think would happen if they had a zero tolerance approach to RMT instead of just trying to control them as they do now? The RMT would DDOS the servers as they did during the choco blinker days and none of you would be able to login, they would also start hacking players accounts again to sell their gil off. Given how lacking in protective thinking many XI players are with addons and download anything from anyone, that would not end well for the endgame players.
SE control RMT pretty well, stopping them being overly malicious. If the RMT went full apeshit mode the game really would not be able to weather such an onslaught too well.
Right now the serious RMT operate on a level where they want the game to continue out of self interest, and where they try to make their money offering services instead of being oppositional to the game and its players. That's about as good as it can get when there are few legal ways for the companies to stop these people.
S-E has been taking a financial beating on both their online games for quite some time now. Final Fantasy 14 has been bleeding players for years, and the playerbase is in significant decline. FF 14 is a decade old now, and the content they've been coming out with has been more and more lackluster and uninspired with each new release. Their latest expansion, Dawntrail, has had some terrible reviews because the story is pretty darn bad (and also because a certain NPC is voice acted so badly and has a specific personality that they're neigh untolerable.)
Also, the actions the 14 developers took against the modding community was a forced intervention. I don't think they wanted to intervene there, but the players forced their hand. That post the developers made had two points, and both of them are important.
1: Players were creating mods that allowed them to modify their client side visuals so they could see their own characters with cash shop items.
2: Players were also creating nude mods that allowed them to modify their client side visuals so they could see their own characters with no clothes on.
Then when you take both point 1 and point 2 and add in this tidbit
Quote: Yoshida recently made a post complaining about people modding ff14, and how it was costing them money (players mod cash shop stuff and use an addon so other players can see everyone elses mods)
You can see why ***hit the fan. It was more than just the financial hit to the cash shop, but the fact that players were doing things that could jeapordize s-e's ability to host their game in countries because of anti-pornography and child protection laws. When you have a game that is marketed as PG 13 you risk lawsuits and product bans if the content starts turning into R rated and X rated stuff. S-E intervened with a cease and desist that shut down the addon that allowed mod sharing, which hit on both point 1 and point 2. It didn't prevent the existence of any of those mods, but it did make it so other players could no longer see someone's mods on their end, returning the mods to a client side only status.
That still doesn't address the fact that they're bleeding players, and it doesn't stop the loss of cash shop revenue either. Just because other players can't see someone wearing a cash shop item if they have a mod installed, doesn't prevent them from installing the mod in the first place. All it did was stem the bleeding and avert further complications from mod category 2 getting them in hot water with legal teams.
S-E's online games continue to be less financially lucrative as time goes by. That's the bottom line. They ARE losing money. And the numbers are pretty significant.
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 116
By Bahamut.Creaucent 2025-09-08 10:17:08
Regarding this post and the commentary from the dev team
if enough NA people went to the extreme to cancel subs over this, would SE even get the memo?
So two things:
It's blatantly obvious that a threat from upper management was made to cut the budget of XI over the last couple of years bfore Matsui left, if revenue did not improve (inflation is destroying the profit margin of the game, and has been for years), that is why Matsui tried to make VR (when it is blatantly obvious they did not have the budget to make it to the standard they are usually made) and shilled merch so hard for a couple of years. They were trying to boost revenue, it didn't end up making enough of a difference and Yoshida cut the budget of the game anyway.
That is why Matsui stepped down from the game when he intended to stay with it till retirement, he didn't do it because he wanted to. Matsui was offered to go work on ff14 14 years ago and he turned it down because he wanted to keep 11 going, so he took over producer role. He was literally moved off 11 and is now working on some shitty unknown "mobile game" till retirement because JP companies can't lay people off, and he needs to hang in to get his pension. He fell on his sword to save the game, and because he refused to lay anyone else off he was in charge of.
This is why Fujito was so salty when he took over and was talking the way he was when he was talking about worrying about the developers careers, and why he can't hire anyone else. Cause they don't have the budget to hire anyone else anymore.
Yoshida recently made a post complaining about people modding ff14, and how it was costing them money (players mod cash shop stuff and use an addon so other players can see everyone elses mods). How inflation was really destructive and only the cash shop allows them to continue funding ff14. Now imagine a game with no cash shop and less players if this is his mindset.
This is not to say the game is on the verge of being shut down, but it's obvious the devs were not happy about losing someone from a close knit team.
ff14 statement from Yoshida: (bolded part half way down)
Hello, everyone. Producer and Director Naoki Yoshida here. I'd like to address the recent feedback and discussion among the community regarding in-game mods.
This post is not meant to target any one mod specifically, but I'd like to touch on the general subject of mods, their use, and the culture surrounding them. I thank you in advance for your understanding.
Firstly, while I am in charge of FFXIV, I am also a PC gamer, and have been for many years. I've spoken about this multiple times in the past, but my own personal stance regarding mods─that I do tolerate them─has not changed.
In the past twenty or so years, I've seen numerous positive examples of games with fan-made mods that expand upon existing gameplay.
However, these mods are generally created with a vital premise in mind: they are for personal use only, and the individual player is responsible for the mods they use. Furthermore, the mods must not impact the core game, its services, or the intended game design in a negative manner. I personally feel that these rules should be followed by all mod creators and users.
That being said, if players continue to uphold the above premise of mods enhancing one's personal enjoyment of the game and acknowledge that they are taking responsibility for what they download, I personally see no reason to track down or investigate gamers for the general use of mods.
Of course, from my position leading FFXIV, I still feel that it is vital for players to follow our user agreement and other rules. Additionally, I'd like to stress the importance that players follow two rules: that their style of gameplay does not infringe upon others, and that they do not negatively impact the core game, its services, or intended game design, as mentioned above.
It is my sincerest hope that everyone can continue playing FFXIV, as well as other PC games, in ways that are enjoyable to them.
Below, I'd like to elaborate on what "infringing upon others" and "negatively impacting the intended game design" entail. These are merely examples, so I don't mind if you skip over them. Please keep in mind that these theoretical examples do not single out any particular mod. Furthermore, this is not a criticism of those who create or use mods─the following is meant to deepen everyone’s understanding of our stance on this matter.
Altering Item and Character Appearances
In FFXIV, we have several extremely high-end duties that challenge players to their limit, known as Ultimate raids. To defeat the enemies within these raids, players must dedicate a significant amount of time and effort. As their reward for clearing, they earn the title of "Legend," as well as job-specific weapons with specialized visual effects.
Let's say Player A loves Ultimate raids and is motivated to challenge them at every opportunity. After they clear, they proudly equip their new title and weapon as proof of their party's diligent efforts to earn them.
Meanwhile, we have Player B, who makes use of a specific mod. This mod allows them to bypass the conditions for obtaining in-game items, making it possible for them to equip any item in the game (including items that must be purchased with real money). Player B is busy with work, and although they have the motivation, their circumstances prevent them from progressing through any of the Ultimate raids. They decide instead to install a mod, so that they can at least see what it looks like to have their own character equipped with one of the Ultimate raid weapons.
Player B uses said mod to equip a set of items, which only displays on their client's screen. To other players, Player B's model is only wearing default gear, but on Player B's monitor, they're equipped with a dazzling Ultimate weapon. They take a screenshot of their character and decide to use it as their desktop background.
In this case, Player A has followed the rules of the game and worked hard with their party to clear the Ultimate raid, earning themselves a weapon and a title as evidence of their feat. When other players come across Player A using their title and Ultimate weapon, they see a “Legend” who has overcome one of the game’s most punishing duties. On the other hand, should they encounter Player B, they would simply see a character with their default gear.
Let’s imagine a scenario in which Player A and B cross paths in-game. On Player B’s screen, Player A appears with their brand-new title and Ultimate weapon─the same weapon that they appear to themselves as having equipped. Conversely, on Player A’s screen, Player A appears with their title and hard-won weapon, while Player B appears in their default gear.
In other words, Player A sees the rewards each player has earned fairly within the context of the game’s rules. Player B sees a modified version of the game, but these changes are visible only to Player B themselves, and thus fall within the realm of individual enjoyment. (Please note that this is not intended as a judgment on the virtue of one approach versus the other.)
Similarly, if a player chooses to install a mod, the risk of encountering a computer virus, for example, is borne by the individual. Additionally, mods that do not adversely affect other players, and which ensure visual changes are only visible to the individual user, can be said to narrowly maintain the integrity of the game’s design─although, of course, this is open to interpretation.
However, if a mod was updated and its changes became visible not just to the individual mod user, but to other players too, what would the implications be? Player A (with their title and gear earned from hours of concerted effort with their friends) and Player B (with their mod-derived gear), are now on a level playing field, so to speak. This development may not concern Player B, but for Player A, it considerably negates the cooperation, time, and effort invested, not to mention the pride they might have felt in their achievement. After all, their rewards are now available to anyone with the mod installed, albeit lacking the corresponding in-game attributes.
In this example, other players have been infringed upon, and the intended design of the game has been negatively impacted. Although Player B may have been unaware of the mod’s precise functionality, their usage has diminished other players’ motivation and circumvented the game’s systems. Even if the creator of the mod simply intended for players to readily access and enjoy their favorite gear, they have detrimentally affected both the game and the wider player community.
In response, our only options would be to ask that players cease using the mod, or to request that the mod creator removes the functionality causing the problem. Of course, we could also implement preventative measures in-game, but this would divert programming resources from other areas, potentially damaging the enjoyment of other players in the long run.
The scenario outlined above is just one example, but I hope it helps clarify the differences between mod usage within the realm of individual enjoyment, and mod usage which is damaging to the game itself. Some players might ask “well, what about a mod which only makes changes visible to other users of the same mod?” The issue is that any mod which makes changes visible to others requires the manipulation or rewriting of game files, which is fundamentally even more problematic and destructive.
Even supposing that this theoretical mod provided generous improvements to the game and was well received by all players, the moment a problematic feature is introduced to said mod, we must insist that players stop using it.
Another example of such a feature: a mod that allows players to freely equip optional items and display them to others. What does that say to the players who go through the trouble of saving up to purchase these goods from the FFXIV Online Store? Are these players losing out by not using a mod?
Some may say that Square Enix is to blame for trying to make money by demanding that players spend extra on optional items. We operate our servers and data centers twenty-four hours a day, three-hundred-sixty-five days a year with the hope that our players can enjoy a reliable gaming experience. Currently, global inflation is taking its toll at a rapid pace, driving up server electricity costs, the cost of land, and even the price of servers themselves. We do not want to increase subscription fees for players, if at all possible─but keeping our game running requires sufficient income. If we start creating a deficit, FFXIV may no longer be able to operate. This is an example of damage dealt to the services we provide.
In these cases as well, we ask that players refrain from using such mods, or remove the offending function from the mod itself. I personally understand that modding culture is rooted in good intentions, but we are given no choice but to act if mods even incidentally threaten player motivation or the viability of our services.
Let's consider another theoretical mod: one that displays your character entirely naked. If this presentation is displayed only on the user's screen, that might fall into the category of personal use and responsibility. (Bear in mind that this is my personal interpretation, and not a discussion of whether that behavior is right or wrong.) However, if the user posts a screenshot of their naked character publicly on social media, FFXIV itself may be subject to legal measures by regulators in certain countries.
Laws that regulate the content of video games grow stricter by the year. These laws are there to protect minors and for a variety of other reasons, but the fact remains that they are tangibly becoming stricter. We have a duty to provide our services in adherence to the laws of all countries where FFXIV is available, and if we are unable to do so, the distribution of our game can be prohibited. This is another example of damage dealt to our services.
Allow me to repeat myself when I say that I do not intend for these examples to be a censure of mod users or creators. I only wish to provide some tangible examples of how using certain mods can damage other players, FFXIV, and the services we provide, regardless of the mod's original intent.
As always, we will do our utmost to keep creating a world which all players can enjoy. Even though it may take time to do so, it is my hope to incorporate player feedback and officially fulfill as many functionality requests as possible. I am also considering how to increase the freedom of choice players have in the gear they choose to equip.
While paying respect to the long-standing tradition of modding PC games, I ask that all players in turn respect our game by enjoying their fun within the confines of some basic rules.
With that business aside, I was very pleased to announce the next Fan Festival yesterday, on the twelfth anniversary of FFXIV. This wouldn't have been possible without you, our players. Thank you all so much for your support thus far, and we hope to have the pleasure of your company as we continue along this incredible journey for years to come.
(And one more thing: for those wondering what comes after the Japan Fan Fest...while I can't give any details just yet, rest assured you won't have to wait long.)
FINAL FANTASY XIV Producer & Director
Naoki Yoshida
Secondly
Like, what do people think would happen if they had a zero tolerance approach to RMT instead of just trying to control them as they do now? The RMT would DDOS the servers as they did during the choco blinker days and none of you would be able to login, they would also start hacking players accounts again to sell their gil off. Given how lacking in protective thinking many XI players are with addons and download anything from anyone, that would not end well for the endgame players.
SE control RMT pretty well, stopping them being overly malicious. If the RMT went full apeshit mode the game really would not be able to weather such an onslaught too well.
Right now the serious RMT operate on a level where they want the game to continue out of self interest, and where they try to make their money offering services instead of being oppositional to the game and its players. That's about as good as it can get when there are few legal ways for the companies to stop these people.
S-E has been taking a financial beating on both their online games for quite some time now. Final Fantasy 14 has been bleeding players for years, and the playerbase is in significant decline. FF 14 is a decade old now, and the content they've been coming out with has been more and more lackluster and uninspired with each new release. Their latest expansion, Dawntrail, has had some terrible reviews because the story is pretty darn bad (and also because a certain NPC is voice acted so badly and has a specific personality that they're neigh untolerable.)
Also, the actions the 14 developers took against the modding community was a forced intervention. I don't think they wanted to intervene there, but the players forced their hand. That post the developers made had two points, and both of them are important.
1: Players were creating mods that allowed them to modify their client side visuals so they could see their own characters with cash shop items.
2: Players were also creating nude mods that allowed them to modify their client side visuals so they could see their own characters with no clothes on.
Then when you take both point 1 and point 2 and add in this tidbit
Quote: Yoshida recently made a post complaining about people modding ff14, and how it was costing them money (players mod cash shop stuff and use an addon so other players can see everyone elses mods)
You can see why ***hit the fan. It was more than just the financial hit to the cash shop, but the fact that players were doing things that could jeapordize s-e's ability to host their game in countries because of anti-pornography and child protection laws. When you have a game that is marketed as PG 13 you risk lawsuits and product bans if the content starts turning into R rated and X rated stuff. S-E intervened with a cease and desist that shut down the addon that allowed mod sharing, which hit on both point 1 and point 2. It didn't prevent the existence of any of those mods, but it did make it so other players could no longer see someone's mods on their end, returning the mods to a client side only status.
That still doesn't address the fact that they're bleeding players, and it doesn't stop the loss of cash shop revenue either. Just because other players can't see someone wearing a cash shop item if they have a mod installed, doesn't prevent them from installing the mod in the first place. All it did was stem the bleeding and avert further complications from mod category 2 getting them in hot water with legal teams.
S-E's online games continue to be less financially lucrative as time goes by. That's the bottom line. They ARE losing money. And the numbers are pretty significant.
I wouldn't say XIV has been bleeding players for years it was at an all time high during Endwalker, its only since Dawntrails disappointing launch story that it seen a dramatic dip in players. XIV also goes through highs and lows during patch cycles its the just way it is.
Completely agree with the banning of the Mare addon. I've heard of one of the nightclubs in XIV using a group code for sharing mods that didnt expire with one of the players finding 2 other players that used the same code just *** in the middle of Limsa.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5857
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2025-09-08 10:27:23
I mean. The whole experience is irritating. (disclaimer, I haven't done ANY dynamis in like 10 years)
You go to a zone, you can't get a bijou because theres bots killing every nm. You finally get one, it doesn't drop. It's just *** annoying for no reason. And Beaucidene nms SUCK balls, theres 100 of em but they're all lotto.
"asura problems"
The dreamlands are at least better, any low level mob drops the bijou
You "need" to be thf for the TH, so that's another job you need to 99 when you just want to play the game. (they made it easier to get TH4 with DM but new players aren't spamming reisen mobs for augs)((you never know which THF trusts ACTUALLY have TH either))
If you could just enter, pop the mob, and leave, it'd be fine.
(oh and diabolos is really dumb. get unlucky and pop the wrong one ugh you get charmed you lose trusts then you get hyperslept, annoying)
AND! You can't even level up the gear unless you've been to sea.
The only people who care about one-time hurdles are people who get banned over and over and over and keep coming back.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 773
By Asura.Melliny 2025-09-08 10:32:10
Quote: I wouldn't say XIV has been bleeding players for years it was at an all time high during Endwalker, its only since Dawntrails disappointing launch story that it seen a dramatic dip in players. XIV also goes through highs and lows during patch cycles its the just way it is.
Of course. When new patches come out players return to experience the new content. The highest point of player activity is right after a new patch. But the drop off is more noticeable in recent years, happening sooner and being larger of a dip. Player retention is down in 14, and graphs show this. The trending has always been there, but it used to be a lot more subtle. Dawntrail was a very noticeable shift, and I’m sure the penny pinchers at s-e’s headquarters have noticed. The graphs and charts are trending downwards.
That’s also why I suspect they waited so long to act on the modding issue. They didn’t want to have to intervene because they realized that ANY actions against their player base would result in the loss of even more revenue. Take away peoples toys and somebody is bound to unsubscribe. But they couldn’t ignore an add on that turned client side only modding into “anyone who has this add on installed can see it” modding. Not when the legal ramifications could shut down their service in countries.
They take a similar approach in this game tbh, banning sparingly to get the message across that "you could be next so don't do it" without just sweeping out everyone. They know bans affect subs, and that affects the bottom line. As much as they hate it, and as much as it's against their ToS, there is a financial incentive to allow SOME RMT to stick around. They pay subs, and those subs bring up the bottom line.
S-E is desperately trying to increase their bottom line here. They have been for a while. A lot of their recent titles have had lackluster performance. They may be a multi billion dollar company with deep pockets and many investors, but their resources are not limitless. They’re noticing this. And their actions show it.
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5857
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2025-09-08 10:36:11
They may be a multi billion dollar company with deep pockets and many investors, but their resources are not limitless
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 311
By Fenrir.Brimstonefox 2025-09-08 11:36:41
Its probably worth mentioning (and I don't know any actual numbers here just total spitballing) I'm guessing like 98% of the games players are 30+ years old (meaning they have kids and lives and the grind is not appealing), lots of people use bots and/or buy gil to alleviate this.
If 1% of the server are gil sellers then, I dunno i'd say something like 5-20% of the server (at least) need to be gil buyers. Banning the gil sellers will probably cause a large percentage of those people to quit.
I'm guessing 80-90%+ use some 3rd party tools (windower vanilla at least) likely 30-50% are using more significant 'addons' (ie bots)
Probably 10-20% people are multiboxing (maybe more and many aren't just running 1 alt, they have several).
What all this means I guess is I think SE taking any serious efforts to curb the passive things people do to level/get gil will never happen, its not just shooting yourself in the foot, its darwin award worthy by shooting yourself in places that would render sterility if not outright suicide.
It might be interesting to have a server (even if there was a premium fee involved) where these activities were more aggressively monitor/banned. Even more so if the grind was removed (say ML xp is 10% of what it is now, maybe REMAP cost 25-50% of what they do now, other) of course transferring to the server might be one way (at the very least for x months or a year)
But in a world with multiple servers, its possible to have your cake and eat it to, and at the very least (from a business perspective) would clue SE to grind adjustments depending on if it was successful and how well it retained people (it could do a poor job of retention but if subs were up it could be a success)
Asura.Eiryl
By Asura.Eiryl 2025-09-08 11:43:20
They finally made asura a jail server. It would be sort of neat if there was a "good server".
No jumping in or out, actual rule enforcement.
I feel like it would either attract everyone, or no one. It sounds good in theory but doesn't work in practice. People want to stretch the rules to make it "fun" and the people who play with those people wouldn't want to leave either.
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Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
Posts: 311
By Fenrir.Brimstonefox 2025-09-08 12:10:28
They finally made asura a jail server. It would be sort of neat if there was a "good server".
No jumping in or out, actual rule enforcement.
I feel like it would either attract everyone, or no one.
If it was the same game, no one. If they took out the grindy elements (like I said even had a premium fee) I bet folks would move, not sure if it would be a few or a lot. No gil sellers no automated bots. Of course grey area with stuff like windower/gearswap (i think if they banned this also, few would go)
By waffle 2025-09-08 12:53:13
S-E has been taking a financial beating on both their online games Small correction, but SE runs 3 mmorpgs. DQX 7.5 just came out at the end of August.
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Bahamut.Zeroize
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5
By Bahamut.Zeroize 2025-09-08 13:56:32
Quote: I wouldn't say XIV has been bleeding players for years it was at an all time high during Endwalker, its only since Dawntrails disappointing launch story that it seen a dramatic dip in players. XIV also goes through highs and lows during patch cycles its the just way it is.
Of course. When new patches come out players return to experience the new content. The highest point of player activity is right after a new patch. But the drop off is more noticeable in recent years, happening sooner and being larger of a dip. Player retention is down in 14, and graphs show this. The trending has always been there, but it used to be a lot more subtle. Dawntrail was a very noticeable shift, and I’m sure the penny pinchers at s-e’s headquarters have noticed. The graphs and charts are trending downwards.
That’s also why I suspect they waited so long to act on the modding issue. They didn’t want to have to intervene because they realized that ANY actions against their player base would result in the loss of even more revenue. Take away peoples toys and somebody is bound to unsubscribe. But they couldn’t ignore an add on that turned client side only modding into “anyone who has this add on installed can see it” modding. Not when the legal ramifications could shut down their service in countries.
They take a similar approach in this game tbh, banning sparingly to get the message across that "you could be next so don't do it" without just sweeping out everyone. They know bans affect subs, and that affects the bottom line. As much as they hate it, and as much as it's against their ToS, there is a financial incentive to allow SOME RMT to stick around. They pay subs, and those subs bring up the bottom line.
S-E is desperately trying to increase their bottom line here. They have been for a while. A lot of their recent titles have had lackluster performance. They may be a multi billion dollar company with deep pockets and many investors, but their resources are not limitless. They’re noticing this. And their actions show it.
I may be in the minority here, so correct me if anyone sees it differently, but I get the feeling that "modern" style MMOs are just not as popular anymore. The younger generation generally isn't as interested in MMOs, and the demographic that enjoys them is aging to a point where they appreciate the challenge that once was.
We have significantly less time, so we want to fill what time we do have with quality. XI is not difficult in the basic sense of the word, but it is time consuming. That said, the payoff of your hard work is very noticeable in XI, so even with limited playtime people are more willing to chip away at something that takes longer to complete if the juice is worth the squeeze.
I enjoyed XIV for the story. The gameplay was always just okay to me, I enjoyed some content more than other content, but mainly played for the story and soundtrack. A lot of the content in XIV always felt "weightless", though. Like it really didn't matter if I did it or not, and unless I really enjoyed doing it I could probably skip it and never notice. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but at least in XI I feel like everything I do is weighty. It matters, at least in context.
What makes me believe I'm not the only one who feels this way about XIV is that as soon as a story came along that wasn't popular, people weren't distracted away from the blemishes that had built up in the game over time. The lacking-weight, formulaic same-ness of everything since 2.0. So, they quit. Some came to FFXI, likely due to the timing of the XI raid, and others just unsubbed in general.
The problem is FFXI is too old to really attract a lot of the new gamers that SE gained during XIV's run, so without something new on the horizon apart from FFXI and FFXIV (or at least a massive change in direction in XIV), you're probably spot on with your assessment.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 773
By Asura.Melliny 2025-09-08 14:11:46
Quote: The problem is FFXI is too old to really attract a lot of the new gamers that SE gained during XIV's run, so without something new on the horizon apart from FFXI and FFXIV (or at least a massive change in direction in XIV), you're probably spot on with your assessment.
The differences between XI and XIV's combat mechanics and gearing are one of the biggest things that set the two games apart. And I agree that I enjoyed 14 mostly for the story and the soundtrack. There is no weight or attachment to gear in 14. Every expansion is a complete power reset. Green quality items of a higher item level have better stats than the most grindy legendary epic REMA quality item of a lower item level. Every cycle they release a new grind to get the ultimate crafting tools, ultimate gathering set, ultimate REMA quality class weapon, etc etc. And these weapons take a dramatic amount of time to build, requiring repetetive raiding of specific events, or collection of specific rare and annoying to gather materials, then have you go through an annoyingly complex set of motions to craft the darn thing.
So now you've done the grind and your warrior has an ultimate great axe of untold destruction with 1200 strength, and your glowing gathering tool of twenty thousand item collecting's has 1200 gathering skill and your shiny hammer of the ultimate forgemaking has 1200 craftsmanship.... and then a new expansion releases. Suddenly a common great axe that you can buy on the market board for a simple dungeon's worth of gil reward has 1280 strength, and you can craft a new armorsmith's hammer with 1280 craftsmanship with simple items collected from an ore mine 20 yalms outside the local port town. And you look at your old ultimate weapon and question what all that effort was for, because now it's completely useless and you're starting the cycle all over again.
In 11 gear is meant to last longer than a couple cycles and then be thrown away. Originally the REMAS were going to go that way when abyssea came out, and s-e was shocked to learn we were attached to them. They gave us reforging to keep them relevant. In 14 there is no way to reforge that bravura you got in 2.0. It's just an old and outdated rema. 14's combat system also gets repetitive and boring. I've said before that 14 is very much a story you live, so when the story ends, the entertainment value drops off a cliff. Because the content design cycles are all the same, and the end game grind gets very dull and repetitive very quick.
Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1409
By Quetzalcoatl.Wakmidget 2025-09-08 15:00:41
Quote: The problem is FFXI is too old to really attract a lot of the new gamers that SE gained during XIV's run, so without something new on the horizon apart from FFXI and FFXIV (or at least a massive change in direction in XIV), you're probably spot on with your assessment.
The differences between XI and XIV's combat mechanics and gearing are one of the biggest things that set the two games apart. And I agree that I enjoyed 14 mostly for the story and the soundtrack. There is no weight or attachment to gear in 14. Every expansion is a complete power reset. Green quality items of a higher item level have better stats than the most grindy legendary epic REMA quality item of a lower item level. Every cycle they release a new grind to get the ultimate crafting tools, ultimate gathering set, ultimate REMA quality class weapon, etc etc. And these weapons take a dramatic amount of time to build, requiring repetetive raiding of specific events, or collection of specific rare and annoying to gather materials, then have you go through an annoyingly complex set of motions to craft the darn thing.
So now you've done the grind and your warrior has an ultimate great axe of untold destruction with 1200 strength, and your glowing gathering tool of twenty thousand item collecting's has 1200 gathering skill and your shiny hammer of the ultimate forgemaking has 1200 craftsmanship.... and then a new expansion releases. Suddenly a common great axe that you can buy on the market board for a simple dungeon's worth of gil reward has 1280 strength, and you can craft a new armorsmith's hammer with 1280 craftsmanship with simple items collected from an ore mine 20 yalms outside the local port town. And you look at your old ultimate weapon and question what all that effort was for, because now it's completely useless and you're starting the cycle all over again.
In 11 gear is meant to last longer than a couple cycles and then be thrown away. Originally the REMAS were going to go that way when abyssea came out, and s-e was shocked to learn we were attached to them. They gave us reforging to keep them relevant. In 14 there is no way to reforge that bravura you got in 2.0. It's just an old and outdated rema. 14's combat system also gets repetitive and boring. I've said before that 14 is very much a story you live, so when the story ends, the entertainment value drops off a cliff. Because the content design cycles are all the same, and the end game grind gets very dull and repetitive very quick.
This comment is the exactly right about XI and XIV. If you ever pop on Twitch randomly and search FFXIV. You'll see like 300 channels. Maybe like 20% of them are grinding end game content fights for highest Ilvl gear. 30% of them are newish people streaming their MSQ progression through the game because they've never played it before, and 50% of them are people streaming random glamour ***like dance parties in their personal housing or linkshell housing.
Dungeons on FFXIV are basically all Point A- Poing B. Trash > boss >> trash >> boss >> trash >> Boss. The only thing that changes is what the bosses look like and the "dances moves" you need to learn to stay alive. It's like running a long hallway where the only thing they did was paint it a new colour. It's fun the first few times you do it, but after that, it's just like every other dungeon.
Once you get access to enough abilities and sufficient starting stats all crafting can be done with macros. Including the highest level recipes. Nowadays, once the "new" recipes come out the difference between them isn't big enough to warrant more than just tweaking 1-2 moves in your macro to keep crafting ***with 1-2 buttons. And the grind for materials isn't even that bad.
When Dawntrail released, I took my time going through the storyline hoping to enjoy it like every other expansion. After U finished that a moved on to my crafting gathering jobs. Took 2 days to get them all to 100, and only another two days after that to craft the new gear/farm all the new top tier materia from scratch without spending a single gil. I put all the highest stats in each piece of gear just because I could and it wasn't even that hard to get. In less than 2 weeks of casual grinding I was basically done with everything I cared about the BIG 7.0 patch we waitied so long for release.
It's funny how worthless gil in that game, literally the only reason most people have so much gil sitting on their characters is because the only thing there is to really spend it on is glamour. There is a reason why there are barely any RMT in that game any more. Because the currency is it is nigh useless.
By Taint 2025-09-08 15:19:22
FFXIV peaked at the end of the Bahamut Raids. They killed a huge portion of endgame with A3S's difficulty and then over compensated through the duration of the Alexander series. Alliance raids had a similar fate that went from party teamwork to trash, trash, boss.
After that they removed all creativity and homogenized the entire game. It is now a beautiful FF game with zero depth.
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 773
By Asura.Melliny 2025-09-08 15:54:24
Quote: After that they removed all creativity and homogenized the entire game. It is now a beautiful FF game with zero depth.
They've made a lot of balance changes in 14 to homogenize combat so that every job plays and feels the same. All the tanks feel the same. All the dds feel the same. Healers constantly complain how boring their job is. I'm still upset to this day that they nerfed warrior's overpower ability from a frontal cone attack to an AoE centered around you. The aoe is smaller than the conal was, and half of the circle is useless (the half BEHIND you will never hit any mobs in a mass pull). There was an uproar when they completely removed samurai's Hissatsu: Kaiten entirely in 6.1, because it completely changed how the job played and felt. They've been systematically dumbing down content, making dungeons and raids easier, and releasing more lackluster content. The complete elimination of enmity concerns dulled the tanking experience dramatically when they decided "tank stance just generates 10 times more enmity so tanks never have to worry about losing aggro again hurp de durr"
This is an 11 form, not a 14 one, so I won't go on any further. I've given enough examples to make a point. And the point I'm making is that there is a reason the 14 player retention rates have been tanking. The developers have made many real decisions that have lessened the quality of the game play, and people noticed. The game is a lot more boring than it used to be, and the new content is shallow and easy to complete. The corporate finance guys have to have noticed the impact it's had. S-E's MMO wallet is thinner nowadays
That's not to say the game or the story itself is bad. I did love the actual storytelling, and for what its worth some of the sound tracks and cut scenes in 14 are the best damn experiences I've had in an MMO. But once you've played through it all and run out of stuff to do... the journey kind of ends.
Server: Phoenix
Game: FFXI
Posts: 130
By Phoenix.Enochroot 2025-09-08 22:56:58
One thing I hoped SE would've learned from XI to apply to XIV was that there's an appetite for 3PP and modifying the game experience in specific, predictable ways. The right way to do that is to own the dev relationship, document your APIs, run a mod store, help your modders build an audience - leaving guardrails in place so ppl aren't *** in limsa or whatever.
And if you're smart and frugal at operating it, you might actually make some money from the endeavor apart from keeping your player base happy.
Think of the things a little openness could unlock. Sites with interactive functionality like Guildwork had (I know, I know), or this one - it could track achievements a lot better. The DI trackers, the XIV Collectable trackers, the timers and weather trackers. All the functionality that relies on scraping or hooking into a character profile. It could all be so much better and SE could still be in control of it and profiting from it. And they're just... not.
[edit: not to mention mobile app use-cases! why can i not interact with AH's or mog gardens or chocobo raising or card games or listen to my orchestrion rolls from a mobile app? in 2025, that's lunacy!]
What a waste. Maybe it's a lesson they can learn for their next MMO, if they stay in business. Maybe a Clair Obscur MMO will figure it out first.
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By ilugmat 2025-09-09 04:33:40
Small correction, but SE runs 3 mmorpgs. DQX 7.5 just came out at the end of August.
They run two on paper, FF14 and DQ10.
FF11 is part of FF14 operations, it hasn't been mentioned on any financial report since 2016 when ff11 accounts were merged with the ff14 account system. It would be impossible to not count FF11 on financial reports, if it was a standalone product. All player numbers from FF11 and revenue it makes are counted directly towards the success of FF14. FF11 props up FF14 in the minds of investors (if even in a smaller way) to appear to be more successful than it really is and this has been the case for a long while.
It's even entirely possible that FF14 barely even makes a profit alone, and could be a loss leader for the company (it's surely being treated that way lately). The development costs for that game are extremely high due to how many developers they have to hire to keep pumping out casual short term content at a high pace.
FF11 has 4 developers, ff14 has hundreds.
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Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
By Ragnarok.Vargasfinio 2025-09-09 07:36:16
I may be in the minority here, so correct me if anyone sees it differently, but I get the feeling that "modern" style MMOs are just not as popular anymore. The younger generation generally isn't as interested in MMOs, and the demographic that enjoys them is aging to a point where they appreciate the challenge that once was.
While this is partially true, young players grind Roblox / Fortnite hard or even harder than any FFXI player ever has and they don't even get any real progression out of it. My son used to play the "grow a garden" game in it and you just endlessly obtain items and grow them, sell them for in-game currency and repeat forever. There is nothing to actually unlock or any level or goal to reach, it is just a treadmill that exists and people play the hell out of it. Hell, Infinity Nikki was extremely popular until they completely up-ended the economy for no reason at all.
I think the grinding mentality is still there (also see any gatcha mobile game) but the reality is that there hasn't been an honest try at a new industry defining MMO in over 10 years. XI is left in its current state because it is a decent revenue stream for very little lift, WoW is...well, its still "there" I guess but it is a corpse at this point and completely unrecognizable.
People also grind the hell out of Counter-Strike for weekly drops too and that requires a 6~10 hour commitment each week depending on how good you are.
The industry just hasn't put up anything worth sinking that much time into in the RPG genre. Maybe they aren't even capable of doing such a thing anymore.
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By Dodik 2025-09-09 07:40:46
It's pretty simple really.
Psychology has taught us that chasing constant gratification creates a dopamine effect that quickly gets you hooked to the feeling of chasing gratification. When you actually achieve it, you stop chasing it - no more addiction.
Therefor all MMOs now operate on a "season" model where by all the previously grinded good stuff becomes obsolete on a multi-month timer to be replaced by the new shiny stuff to be grinded in order to give you that chasing constant gratification feeling.
The old model of you grind for X amount of time and use it forever was not addictive enough. There for it's not used anymore.
This is true for all games not just MMOs or RPGs. Even counter strike does this by "drops" and skin rewards.
By waffle 2025-09-09 09:23:33
FF11 has 4 developers, ff14 has hundreds.
If I remember correctly from the last time they discussed it, ffxi has zero full time developers and they just give random ffxi tasks to employees between their other work tasks. From what I recall, the justification was about how antiquated the tools and systems are and how it didn't serve to further develop their programmers' careers to be stuck on such obsolete work.
By Felgarr 2025-09-09 10:24:52
FF11 has 4 developers, ff14 has hundreds.
If I remember correctly from the last time they discussed it, ffxi has zero full time developers and they just give random ffxi tasks to employees between their other work tasks. From what I recall, the justification was about how antiquated the tools and systems are and how it didn't serve to further develop their programmers' careers to be stuck on such obsolete work.
SE should open source FFXI.
Leviathan.Andret
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1064
By Leviathan.Andret 2025-09-09 12:15:58
There is a reason why people aren't spreading to the empty servers where there are very few if no RMT. Why would a group of people willingly leave their small quiet server to go to a high pop server where there are queues to enter events?
Why would anybody line up in a crowded server and not invading your small and quiet server? Did the crowded server have cookies or the small server have ghosts?
For that matter, why would anybody pay $4500 a month for a shoe box in New York to live with the fat rats instead of $1500 for a mansion with a beach view in tropical Vietnam? Maybe they drugged the water?
Carbuncle.Nynja
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 5857
By Carbuncle.Nynja 2025-09-09 12:37:15
1-hes saying he wants more people on Levi, Asurans flock to Levi
1A-bold statement from someone whos on a bottom-5 population server. Sounds like you much prefer the $1500 mansion with a beach view instead of the $4500 rat infested shoebox yourself.
2-A “group of people” implied a linkshell, a group of friends, a static partnership, not single persons relying on shouts and pugs to partake in content. I figured it was rather obvious, but apparently not.
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This thread is for discussion of recent news from the Dev Tracker - News thread. Keep it civil.
Original thread by Pantafernando archived here.
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