Dev Tracker - Discussion

The only time my wife has cursed at me and others for messing up content was Salvage and Ulhuadshi. Odyssey is fine so long as whatever comes next looks nothing like it.

I think removing support job was so artificially challenging, it felt forced. As a player, I hate arbitrary restrictions just because. Salvage was fine because it was like a unique element to the event that could be unlocked, and there was a mini story in the lore behind it. With Odyssey, no explanation. Just here's the restriction. Deal with it. Like they wanted a way to crank up the difficulty factor, but weren't creative enough to actually create something unique. Also didn't like how they encouraged people to do 3NMs in one visit before RP and Amplifiers even existed. It didn't make any sense at the time and the entire thing of Odyssey just felt like they arbitrarily pieced together a bunch of unrelated elements and called it an event. It's whatever now, but I can see how a lot of people think Odyssey is hard content or are just flat out confused. The bosses are one thing, but the restrictions are so unusual, I think it just puts people off altogether.

Since there seems to be a problem for people to get what they want from Odyssey, think it was one of the questions submitted to SE devs that some people felt it was too hard to get into the content or whatever.

If they made it so that the Odyssey Sheol Gaol bosses also dropped a item worth selling or made it so that you could convert spare RP to Gil or items worth selling, then more people that already have all their Odyssey gear fully upgraded will continue to spam the event. Making it so that both types of people will feel that they have a reward for farming the event.

I think they did it because it lined up with the hard focus on job role specialization they wanted for Gaol, as seen in their no job repeats rule. They didn't want jobs to leave their role, such as with SMN subbing WHM to be a run's healer.

That might have been their idea, but clearly they didn't put too much aftertought in the consequences of implementing such an idea in a game without fixed roles.
This isn't FFXIV or WoW, we don't have equally interchangable (with due differences) classes/jobs who fill the same role, one of 3 (5) possible ones.

If you think about it WHM is the only dedicated healer.
SCH is a hybrid job who can somewhat cover WHM's role.
RDM lacks -na and aoe heals.
I can keep going but you got what I mean.


It's exactly what Saevel said: the destructured roles of jobs in FFXI is one of the core element of the game, and allowing you to pick the SJ is one of the means through which this is obtained.

Did they manage to artificially increase the Difficulty? Yes.
Did they do that at the cost of one of FFXI's deepest elements? Alas, yes they did.

I mean plenty of other ways they could implemenent to obtain "something" by giving up some of FFXI core elements.
They could release content that requires you to pick ONE job to play and after that you can only play that job and *** all other ones, but it's the same reasoning behind the locking of SJ, even if more extreme. They have in common the fact that they both go against core mechanics that define what FFXI is.

Going against core mechanics for an isolated part of a game isn't in itself bad, as long as it serves a purpose that makes temporarily changing the rules worth it. For example, stealth sections in Zelda games, which remove all of Link's tools and combat ability in favor of avoiding enemies for a short segment.

As to whether SE succeeded in making it worth it in Gaol, that's up for debate. I personally was never really bothered by it (though I wouldn't be against bringing them back, either).

I apologize but I strongly dissent with this.
It's a matter of game design, it goes beyond potentially good (or bad) implementations.
It should be a taboo in a game like FFXI, imho.

I disagree with calling Odyssey's restrictions "artificial difficulty". In fact, it's one of the few instances where they actually introduced a "new" form of difficulty that wasn't just a matter of tweaking damage, stats or HP (like in Dyna) that eventually just led to people zerging stuff down like everything else. With the exception of Bumba, of course.

And technically SJ restrictions aren't even new, they've been in the game since almost the start. They just added the job limits on top of it.

The restrictions are rough, of course, but it caused a lot of the playerbase to come up with some pretty creative setups and strategies to tackle the harder mobs. It also revived some less popular setups like manaburn. And the rewards definitely match the effort necessary—just the daily segment farming is truly awful.

Personally, I consider Gaol (in a vacuum) to be some of the most fun content in the game to date solely because you have to build your setup around each job's individual kit. In a meta with very homogenized DDs it's a nice change of pace.

There's some parts of Gaol I'd call "bad design" — the random, potentially run-ending auras, the randomness of the add spawned on Bumba, the segment cost discouraging helping others during progression, not enough incentive to do 3x NM runs, etc. — but restricting sub-jobs isn't one of them.

Restricting sub-jobs encourages people to get a little more creative with their comps and playstyle, particularly if they're doing multi-NM runs like Odyssey is designed for. It makes for a totally unique feel to the content and its challenge.

Now, does it screw over some jobs more than others? Absolutely, which is unfortunate. Some jobs reliant on SJ for dual wield access have their melee DPS hobbled. It becomes acutely apparent how badly designed and boring GEO is. SCH healer lacks some basic amenities such as barspells, which really should be added to Addendum: White.

But overall I think it's fine, and achieves exactly what it sets out to. High vengeance Odyssey is clearly supposed to be challenge content, and it'd be noticeably less so if sub-jobs were enabled.

They can and should make Odyssey more approachable though, such as by making moglophones stack like Omen, and somehow easing the segment cost to help people (although how they do this without helping sellers, I don't know). Don't think they need to make the fights themselves much easier; the difficulty curve is already pretty smooth, at least up to v20-v25's add(s), which intensify the need for creative strategizing.


Completely agree.

Fully agreed with regard to all of those parts. I consider randomness like the Auras to be especially bad in game design because there's no mechanic to counter them and they are sometimes run-ending, as you said.

However, stuff like missing Barspells or DW is, in my opinion, not a failing as that's exactly the job essentialism one is supposed to build around. The jobs that don't have native DW bring a lot of other things to the table to make up for it and healers like SCH can be worked into PUP tank setups without issue (which can be used for almost any strategy).

In other news... the monthly patch notes:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/59681

Nothing of much note, not even new VR. Guess we'll see the new stuff in August.

Oh joy, more Ambu adjustments for our "enjoyment".

I wonder what they'll do this time. Perhaps the suicide bomber is going to keep respawning unless the mechanic is done properly, so saccing someone will just lead to a slow party wipe as people get obliterated one-by-one?

It's purely artificial difficulty and ends up crippling many jobs versatility precisely because those jobs were designed / balanced around having a SJ.

All the while the BRD is like "WTF do I do know" after applying 11 minute songs. On Kalunga they can DPS, but the rest they are just kinda standing there. Our super BRD eventually made a enmity set for requiem and would attempt to get the hate of the add and kite it around, just to have something useful to do while songs were up.

Being able to just stand around after doing 11 min songs is a privilege afforded by having all REMA and relevant gear, not the default. SE didn't make those restrictions with that in mind. Aside from expecting most players to have shorter buffs they also added lots of dispel moves to many of the NMs because they want support jobs constantly rebuffing to stay busy.

I concede that GEO is in an awkward spot because they've got nothing but ineffective nukes against most NMs once bubbles are up. SE has been on a bit of a crusade against GEO for a long time now. My static opted to use RDM or BST to debuff instead and to provide additional value through other means.


That's basically how raiding works for healers in any other MMO. Beats having healing be so simple that people just have bots do all of it.

Besides, most v20 are made significantly easier by having a RDM around and they can toss cures as well. If you're struggling with solo healing then simply adjust your setup so you aren't the only one.

It is fun, IMO.

Awkward, because I have healed all v20s.

If you're ever reliant on a GEO's capacity to off-heal, something is wrong with either your group's damage intake (in which case, ensure they're in DT / adjust buffs / adjust comp), or your own reaction time / prioritization.

Regardless, there are plenty of off-healing options available without sub-jobs if your group feels like you need it. You can slot in a BLU, or a DNC, or a RDM.

Or you can adjust your comp to mitigate damage more effectively, such as using a RUN on Xevioso to stack Valiance with Carol and Baraera, effectively preventing OHKOs; or putting in a PUP on Ngai to totally nullify the add.

These are the types of creativity that Odyssey's restrictions encourage. It's up the the players to, you know, think outside the box instead of doing cookie cutter damage maximizing if that isn't necessary. Sometimes ensuring smoother fights is best.

Thinking outside the box isnt something that people that play mmo do. And it certainly doesn't reward it. It only rewards ruthless efficiency.

Also, there is an entire myriad of healing medicine in the game. (I know, you'll lose 2 seconds of deeps and it's unthinkable!)
((medication penalties are a thing they need to re-evaluate, but none of you ever really bother to bring it up))

yeeeeh!!!!!! only meta pt's and no thinking outside the box. Ye think diffrent? Then you dont belong here.
*Enter sarcasm here*

But seriously. This should be a game of fun. Who cares if the result takes 10s longer or maybe a minute. But maybe this is the problem of a 20 year old game. Peeps just want it fast or not at all.

I'm of the camp of people who found Odyssey pretty fun. But I can also separate my own opinions and see why others thought the event was confusing, frustrating, and cumbersome. The support job thing was just odd to me personally, but like I said, whatever, we worked around it. What really pissed me off to no end was the 3-unique-jobs and no-repeat-jobs restriction when paired with the 3-NM-in-One-Visit thing. It needlessly complicated the event from a group-forming perspective if you did not have a pool of players with diverse jobs to choose from beforehand. So basically, nobody PUG could accomplish this easily.

I practically formed every one of my own Odyssey groups from scratch, no LS, group of friends with dozens of jobs, none of that. And it was unbelievably frustrating trying to find random people who had enough jobs to make a decent run at 3 NMs, either faking it or trying to win. Hav you ever shouted for 1-2 people in PUG that had either BST SMN DRG or THF PLD WHM? It's insane trying to find EXACTLY what you needed. You might have 2-3 people who had a dozen jobs, but then the other half had the exact same 3 geared jobs, and it put a huge strain trying to form a good group with the people you had. It also meant that at times, if you had one person who was really good at one job, he might have to play something else weaker, because the person you picked up off the street had the same overlapping jobs as another person. So you ended up with groups of people playing sub-optimal jobs just to make it fit. It was figuratively fitting a square peg into a round hole.

This is all a side-point, but it adds to the frustration that many people felt with Odyssey. Looking at all of the parts together, I can totally understand why less endgame prepared players literally ignored it, because it was not PUG friendly at all. The only bone they threw at players was the weird RP/amp/tanking system, which again, was another odd mechanic that seemed to be thrown into the cauldron.

just my 2c

They could definitely have a middle ground where you could do 2 NMs instead of 3.

I think they could also add additional moglophones for A and B, I've not run either for segment points since they came out.

Absolutely not different phones for ABC but better incentives for A and B (all the good augments come from hides) The amount of UNM in B are just larger.
As all things, poorly balanced.

If you let people run A B and C every day, I shouldn't even have to tell you what would happen. And no, it wouldn't be a choice.

When things go south as a Bard, just remember WWJD

What Would Joachim Do?
Then you put up that Paeon and back to afk

I can't stand people who can visit the Curio every day but not be bothered to buy at the bare minimum a few stacks of Remedy, Echo Drops and Holy Water. I keep a few stacks of everything, Panacea included in my Sack..


Your DD's can help by tossing their own -na and erases using items. If they would rather let you struggle, you need better DD's to play with.


Same applies here. If you're playing with someone who mains BLU or takes the job seriously (any job for that matter) then they should have different sets for different situations. It's meant to be versatile and not just another DD.

I think some of the reasons why people don't buy medicine is due to either they think they have the medicine or they don't want to sort their inventory there and then and do it later then forget that they had to do so.

If it weren't for addons I think I would seriously struggle with inventory management, even the devs won't bother with adding a feature like findall is already doing (partial searches).

Findall is all you need but these things sit at the top of your inventory if you have auto-sort on.

I expect it in my group. Even have a modified version of STNA to allow for people to set their own hotkey for one button/macro for all medicine use.