[PUP] Ambuscade V1

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[PUP] Ambuscade V1
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By Teuphist 2017-09-13 06:59:39
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Maybe we can start throwing our own threads in here each month for Ambuscade findings since the official threads tend to exclude this or pet jobs in general.

Here is what I posted on that thread for us.

PUP parties, I would suggest going with RDM for haste, potential sleeps and set your puppet up to tank/skillchain with each of you (however many you may have). Based on my solo on Easy.

Solo Easy
AAEV, August, Yoran, Selh'teus, Koru
Engage boss, deploy puppet on add. Let tanks get hate, swap to add. One skillchain w/ puppet on add will kill it if w/ VIT herc set afaik. Swap back to boss. Let hatebounce back and forth between tank trusts (you'll steal it on master...ventriloquy helps of course). Using mythic, w/ AM3 up. Shijin > Bone Crusher for highest damage. Pummel to get AM back up as often as possible. Your puppet will pull hate no matter what and will die unless you're willing to slow the fight down throwing on the -DT set. Don't forget you have Deus Ex.
Ranger puppet is too slow unless maybe you Howling Fist > Arcuballista with flame holder and 3x fire (idk the outcome of that on this fight).

Puppet build:
Harlequin/Valoredge
Attuner
Flame Holder
TS IV
Speedloader II
Dynamo III
Coiler I/II
Turbo Charger I/II
OF I/II
ARK III
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By Teuphist 2017-09-14 05:19:51
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Coming back to this, I've made an Automaton change.
Speedloader II, ARK III, Harlequin Head for Inhibitor II, ARK IV, VE Head. Going to probably take off the Flame Holder as well for Inhibitor I and just keep a steady stream of skillchains going. After my first two runs which led to the OP here, I haven't been as fortunate with the crits landing on bone crusher to instantly kill the add so it's been taking too long to switch and burn down the boss. Plus, the boss is destroying my Automaton which is clearly only build for DD since it strips hate from Trusts so easily.

Other possible changes potentially may include
Dynamo III for Replicator or AP IV. I say Replicator since the Automaton having shadows up will reduce its enmity without having to worry as much about it losing HP (unless a bomb goes off). We'll see.

Oh! btw, too risky to use Godhands on this without a proper tank. FYI
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By Teuphist 2017-09-14 20:35:33
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Normal:
6/6 PUP
2x Tank builds - One pulls boss away. Keeps light/earth maneuvers up, staggers fire for provoke. Have Repair and Ventriloquy ready for HP Theft and hate reset. Second pulls one add w/ Automaton, provoke a second > Ventriloquy. hold both on puppet.

1x Hybrid tank. Strobe I and defensive attachments, but mainly build to skillchain with ranger automatons.

3x Sharpshot. STP build to burn adds down fast.

Could replace one PUP w/ a COR for Companion's/Beast rolls after automatons have hate and the Puppetmaster holding the boss isn't swapping hate.
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By clearlyamule 2017-09-14 20:55:17
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Crits on Bonecrusher?
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By Teuphist 2017-09-15 04:54:36
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Yes, it can crit (or DA) as any other physical ws can crit or DA.
I imagine if you get familiar fighting particular NMs, you'll begin to tell whether bone crusher gave you DA or probably just crit based on the dmg.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-09-15 05:11:17
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Teuphist said: »
as any other physical ws can crit or DA.
Wait, wat?
I'm probably just misunderstanding I guess...
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By Nariont 2017-09-15 05:36:49
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BC cant crit unless the ws desc says it can crit. It can da/oat like any non-magic ws, but not crit

Edit: i should rephrase that, according to SEs ws desc it cant, and we know how accurate SE rends to be, still ive never seen a spiked bc that didn't give a higher tp return aswell.
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By Teuphist 2017-09-15 06:20:23
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I'm going to put together a little something I found out for you all.

*Edit*

May take a moment as my kparser doesn't seem to be picking up anything after this update apparently. Maybe after work, I'll get to it.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-09-15 07:59:45
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No single ws in game can normally crit unless it's a crit-based ws. (i.e. it's written in the description)
If automaton ws are the exception here I can't say, but given how they use player based mechanic I would be leaning to say no.
Maybe it's a special hidden trait of the dynamo attachment?

I'm kinda skeptic about it.
Teu are you sure you're not just simply mistaken on this?
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By Nariont 2017-09-15 08:17:00
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Even if it could, doesnt crit for pets add very little to dmg?
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By clearlyamule 2017-09-15 10:19:54
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Nariont said: »
Even if it could, doesnt crit for pets add very little to dmg?
Yeah to add onto that's not how player ws work... for pets crits don't raise pdif caps so it only adds any dmg if you are uncapped or the pet is a job with crit dmg bonus
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By Teuphist 2017-09-15 22:57:13
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I'll respond to everyone once I can get my parser running again. Has anyone any info on a new memloc? looks like it's changed again and I'm not having any fortune getting a new one. Suppose there's always the option of video or screenshots.
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By clearlyamule 2017-09-16 04:07:16
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Problem with real fight parsing is well all kinds of things are or may be happening. Plus at least before now it did some weird stuff with autos or at least ranged autos. But ranged attacks on autos are weird to begin with. Can't even crit with Mighty strikes and such

Regardless the whole rise of crit ws during abyssea was because they got to take advantage of +crit dmg and rate atmas while others couldn't (outside of ja forcing).

But wouldn't be the first time SE got a descriptor wrong. So here's a test I just did.

Initial conditions: Gearlocked to prevent variations due to that
Mob (lvl 88 Sand Sweeper) meleed down to less than 25% to ensure it dies in first hit (5-6k hits were 1 shotting them so really anything under 50% would've worked)
Beast roll, double light shot dia, frailty, double light +fire with OFs, Atunner and TSs while using 119 pet to ensure capped pdif

No atmas or other conditions than above- 3078, 3061, 3067, 2966

Sanguine scythe, razed ruins and gnarled horn (so +60% crit dmg and definitely capped ddex and +50% crit rate so huge crit rate and huge dmg differences on crits) and all 3 dynamos on top of above conditions- 3024, 3009, 2995, 2991, 3068

Same atmas and other conditions as above but now level 96 mobs because some doofus was lvling them up. Plus Mighty strikes up to force a crit- 4844

Conclusion given the dmgs very very obvious that only crit I got was with mighty strikes. Given should've had a base crit rate of 75% just from ddex and atmas plus the 18 listed for dynamos (though don't see sources on that so meh) should've had a 93% rate so odds of missing 5 in a row is .000168%... even if you ignore the dynamos we still talking under .1%. Also given the dmg increase the vast majority of it if not all (need a bigger sample of course to narrow down a small crit attack bonus) came from the atmas +crit dmg
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By Teuphist 2017-09-16 14:25:29
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Warning, long post ahead...

I don't understand what problems you're referring to with the parser. I tend to compare my log with what shows on the parser from fight to fight and don't see any discrepancies. That being said, I'm looking for a new memloc so it'll be easier to post the series of WS and crits based on the attachment setup. ie. coilers vs dynamo.

Automaton Harlequin/Valoredge solo WS test on Apex Bats
Used Kenkonken to avoid overloads due to not swapping gear.
Did not switch to Ohtas to avoid parameter changes.
Parameters are pre-maneuver buffs. No Earth to effect VIT.
Gearing situation will be equal between both Automaton builds to focus on attachment effects
The Automaton's VIT/ATT/DA/CRIT Herculean set is not being used for the obvious reasons.

You also have to keep in mind that no WS in the game says it can DA in the description...yet..

On to the results.

Shiromochi
Parameters:
Primary Acc-1211 / Primary Att-1380
Eva-804 / Def-1616
Attack Down Primary Att-1223

Gear: (Locked)
Mythic (No AM active)
Animator P+1
Herculean 4/5, Pitre Tobe +1, Penetrating Cape, Klouskap Sash, Empath Neck, Rimeice/Burana Earrings, Varar Rings
Accuracy+146 Attack+67
Haste+13%
STP+58

Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor I/II, TS IV, Dynamo I-III, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 1x Light, Fire, Wind
STR 102+117
DEX 92+109
VIT 101+109

DPS: 354

Bone Crusher:
5155
2785
3022
3542
3197
3617
3520
3417
3174
3130
3226
2914
3453
3473
3558
3021
3109
3125
3205
3043
3443
3246
3052
3582
2945
2850
3332
2993
3553
3607
3177
4158
4180
4523
3989
3845
3990
3549
3050
3058
3629
3196
2732
3174
3673
3655

Parameters:
Primary Acc-1387 / Primary Att-1371
Eva-828 / Def-1670
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked)
Mythic (No AM active)
Animator P+1
Heyoka 3/5, Tali'ah Turban +1, Foire Dastanas +3, Visucius' Mantle, Klouskap Sash, Empath Neck, Rimeice/Burana Earrings, Varar Rings
Accuracy+270 Attack+40
Haste (Over cap)+25%
STP+16

Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor I/II, TS IV, Dynamo I-III, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 1x Light, Fire, Wind
STR 102+126
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 330

Bone Crusher:
3430
3442
3348
3636
3464
3204
2886
3051
3233
2738
3016
3173
3320
3001
1940
2975
3117
3509
2932
3447
2926
3179
3229
3582
3354
3579
3093
3650
2856
3408
3063
2738
3999
3810


Parameters:
Primary Acc-1211 / Primary Att-1380
Eva-804 / Def-1616
Attack Down Primary Att-1243

Gear: (Locked)
Mythic (No AM active)
Animator P+1
Herculean 4/5, Pitre Tobe +1, Penetrating Cape, Klouskap Sash, Empath Neck, Rimeice/Burana Earrings, Varar Rings
Accuracy+146 Attack+67
Haste+13%
STP+58

Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor I/II, TS IV, Coiler I/II, Resister II (hoping to reduce 'Attack Down'), TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 1x Light, Fire, Wind
STR 102+117
DEX 92+109
VIT 101+109

DPS: 354

Bone Crusher:

3509
3105
4355
4017
4160
3972
4260
4857
3920
3675
4751
3347
3879
4306
3920
3586
4929
3393
2908
2360
2793
3646
4519
3365
3038
3745
3498
3994
5104
3470
3663
4876
3410
4189
3838
3245
2987

Parameters:
Primary Acc-1387 / Primary Att-1371
Eva-828 / Def-1670
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked)
Mythic (No AM active)
Animator P+1
Heyoka 3/5, Tali'ah Turban +1, Foire Dastanas +3, Visucius' Mantle, Klouskap Sash, Empath Neck, Rimeice/Burana Earrings, Varar Rings
Accuracy+270 Attack+40
Haste (Over cap)+25%
STP+16

Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor I/II, TS IV, Coiler I/II, Heatsink, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 1x Light, Fire, Wind
STR 102+126
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 349

Bone Crusher:
3747
4563
3264
3224
4446
4049
3455
3258
3143
3640
3169
2790
1819
2858
3383
3088
3447
4161
3094
2987
1886
3958
3520
3468
4081
3382
3579
3874
3983
4103
4435
3572
4800
3204
3400
3080
3442
4697
4310
3434
4122
2720
3487
3454
3359
3241
3316
4869
3543
3220

All gear in this test buffs the master.
Only gear buffs to Automaton come from:
Taliah Manteel +1 - Accuracy+40
Animator P+1 - Attributes +20
Visucius's Mantle - Lv +1 (Augmented for master)
Slower process with Flame Holder and no Automaton gear.
Bone Crusher's w/ any light/wind maneuvers intentionally excluded from the following tests.


Parameters:
Primary Acc-1129 / Primary Att-1309
Eva-828 / Def-1670
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked/Master)
Mythic (No AM active)
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Coiler I/II, Heatsink, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 3x Fire
STR 102+134
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 223

Bone Crusher:
12906
12913
11559
8973
7849
10528
10549
10707
10734
9719
9882
9252
11690
16386
8573
15457
14362
10499
10589
10709
11912
17611

Parameters:
Primary Acc-1129 / Primary Att-1309
Eva-828 / Def-1670
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked/Master)
Mythic (No AM active)
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Dynamo I-III, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 3x Fire
STR 102+134
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 217

Bone Crusher:
11188
11206
8905
10127
11368
11893
9639
10743
10480
9059
9094
10643
10422
9390
12204
13009
10138
10540
16339
9914
13607
10576


You still don't clearly see any advantage of DA or CHR in any of the tests thus far.
Now I'll show AM3 testing which should give the advantage to DA, though of course. I'll be testing between Coilers or Dynamo again.
Again...gear built for master.
Oddest part of these following tests is the DPS. Which is largly due to having to reapply fire maneuvers resulting in slower ws rates.

Parameters:
Primary Acc-1129 / Primary Att-1309
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked/Master)
Mythic (AM3 Active)
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Dynamo I-III, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 3x Fire
STR 102+134
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 242

Bone Crusher:
14486
17935
11467
17677
14759
10255
14459
17571
10019
13833
15843
16704
13588
20722
12808
19627
13041
14989
14028
14847

Ave. 14932.9

Parameters:
Primary Acc-1129 / Primary Att-1309
Eva-828 / Def-1670
Attack Down Primary Att-1239

Gear: (Locked/Master)
Mythic (AM3 Active)
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Coiler I/II, Heatsink, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 3x Fire
STR 102+134
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 246

Bone Crusher:
15256
15804
9756
14152
9089
11384
14121
10240
16819
10514
13570
14644
11299
14966
13221
13949
14630
8884
14916
16815

Ave. 13201.45

Now comes the AM3 + VIT/ATT/DA/CHR Tests which will not be convincing to the rest of you. But blatantly obvious to me.
This test will have Overload/Maneuver+ gear sapped in as necessary, but will always have VIT set on for Bone Crusher.

Parameters with Bone Crusher Herculean set:
Primary Acc-1207 / Primary Att-1568
Eva-828 / Def-1775
Attack Down Primary Att-1229

Gear: (Pet VIT/ATT/DA/CHR)
Mythic (AM3 Active)
Animator P+1
Herculean 5/5, Empath Necklace, Handler's +1/Domesiticator's Earring, Thurandaut/Varar Ring, Visucius' Mantle, Klouskap Sash
VIT+42
Accuracy+100 Attack+167
DA+11
CHR+8
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Dynamo I-III, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III
Attributes 3x Fire
STR 102+152
DEX 92+113
VIT 101+116

DPS: 341


Bone Crusher:
22194
28122
25852
21133
27906
14943
19898
20165
15117
23466
23376
18718
28423
27564
29769
22146
18099
28641
21850
18977

Ave. 22907.95

Parameters with Bone Crusher Herculean set:
Primary Acc-1207 / Primary Att-1568
Eva-828 / Def-1775
Attack Down Primary Att-1229
Attachments: Attuner, Inhibitor II, Flame Holder, TS IV, Coiler I/II, Heatsink, TC I/II, OF I/II, ARK III

DPS: 351

Bone Crusher:
28889
16571
27787
19132
14647
20136
17913
13672
18683
21875
20552
14315
20341
15130
21285
20213
14943
13912
22487
15344

Ave. 18891.35

Maybe you'll chop it up to coincidence maybe it's crits. All I can say is, I've been getting better results as of late using Dynamo attachments when burning mobs down.

Play as you will, just know that I shared my experience with these.
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 Siren.Kyte
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-09-16 14:50:01
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Quote:
You also have to keep in mind that no WS in the game says it can DA in the description...yet..

That's not even a vaguely appropriate comparison.
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 Asura.Azagarth
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By Asura.Azagarth 2017-09-16 15:12:17
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teuphist its called a spoiler ffs
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By Fenrir.Niflheim 2017-09-16 15:48:41
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Kinda confused... your results show how crit is not involed and how attack and da incease the damage?
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By clearlyamule 2017-09-16 15:57:23
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Quote:
I don't understand what problems you're referring to with the parser. I tend to compare my log with what shows on the parser from fight to fight and don't see any discrepancies.

It's not the parser that's the problem (though it does sometimes do funky things with pets) it's the using it in real settings that you aren't controlling other variables which ends up making it easy to conflate actual coincidence or other potential factors with something maybe attachmens/autos don't work like SE says (that certainly does happen) and the tendency to use better sample sizes instead of better methodology. Hence why controlled tests are necessary. Like for those tests did you track how many hits landed on each? What about which ones had attack down on? Did you keep mob level consistent? Maybe dynamo is doing something else to increase dmg?

Quote:
You also have to keep in mind that no WS in the game says it can DA in the description...yet..
While true testing backs up it can and how it can more than once since pretty much forever. While testing has shown ws without crit descriptors don't naturally. Not to be mean but not really sure where this is coming from. It's kind of been proven and accepted for almost a decade now. It literally became the entire meta of abyssea era and about the only reason you ever saw a lot of the bad (at the time) crit ws get used. Actually even made Heavy shot decent lol.
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By Teuphist 2017-09-16 17:41:33
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Well I can be certain the bats levels were consistent. At most, plague from Shijin. The Attack Down was on my auto majority of the time. I hadn't focused on it as I would just be burning through oils to keep it off for the test. I believe the timer on it is 5 minutes.

Fenrir.Niflheim said: »
Kinda confused... your results show how crit is not involed and how attack and da incease the damage?

Bruh!

Did anyone read what this post was about?
I said it crits because that's what I believe it does based off the results I've gotten over various fights in recent weeks. If it's wrong, then it's wrong - it still doesn't change the outcome of fights I've done. I care not for the meta...if I had, I'd be only using PUP to tank for pet parties like majority of the community and never use my automaton for the worth it has.
I'd be listening to particular non-PUP players and limiting myself to lv. 125 content.

I'll be sure not to share the particulars of what's making it work for me to help everyone avoid missing the entire point of the post, would that work for everyone?
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By Leviathan.Andret 2017-09-16 18:48:33
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Teuphist, your post is really confusing. I don't know ow what are you trying to prove. If your hypothesis is "DA increases WS damage" then I believe that most people know it already. If your hypothesis is "CRIT % increases WS damage even on non-crit WS" then I don't really see it from your tests.

Usually what people do to prove that a WS can or cannot crit is to use it on a mob about to die. This way, you can be sure that your WAS would never be able to DA because the mob would be dead before the 2nd hit.

I think the crit/non-crit tests used Sneak Attack as it forces a WS to crit and they compare the results.
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By Teuphist 2017-09-16 18:58:56
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Not eluding to anything any longer. Thank you for checking it out though.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-09-16 21:56:35
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Yeah ... that means absolutely nothing as your attack is so far under pDiff cap that random variance makes crit testing impossible. Test it on things where your pets attack is capped and it's going to die in one hit of the WS. Calculate out the maximum damage that hit could do, then do a lot of them and try to get over that maximum damage. If all your hits fall into the range of a maxed attack non-crit WS, then no-crits were detected. If the hits fall above the range of a maxed non-crit WS, then it's possible a crit happened.

So far in FFXI, there hasn't been a single WS, player or pet, that can critical unless it specifically says it can.