Jack Of All Trades: A Guide To Red Mage

Still getting same confusing results on Apex Crabs and Pugils.

Apex Jagil #1
GAIN-INT: 15969
GAIN-MND: 16008

Apex Jagil #2
GAIN-INT: 15969
GAIN-MND: 16008

Apex Crab #1
GAIN-INT: 16260
GAIN-MND: 16294

Apex Crab #2
GAIN-INT: 16260
GAIN-MND: 16294

(I guess I pulled both Jagils and Crabs at same level, did multiple WSes with each mob with each gain spell keeping shell/stoneskin/str-down off)

My setup:
ItemSet 365334
RDM/BLM (though when I first tested I was /WHM so I don't imagine that makes a world of difference)
No Ionis
No food
Dragon Hatchling Cheer
Windsday
Crocea Mors R15/25 Path C
Merlinic Jubbah INT+1 Mag. Acc.+24 "Mag. Atk. Bns."+39 Magic burst dmg.+ 8%
Amalric Slops +1 Path D
Sucellos's Cape MND+30 Mag.Evasion+15 Mag. Acc.+20/Mag. Dmg.+20 Weapon skill damage +10%

My croc isn't capped yet, could you try it with a weaker gain-stat spell (no hands) so we can see the difference it makes? Would help isolate it to a possible incorrect WSC or dSTAT value.

+25 stat gain spells:
Apex Jagil #1
GAIN-INT: 15592
GAIN-MND: 15605

Apex Jagil #2
GAIN-INT: 15667
GAIN-MND: 15684

Apex Crab #1
GAIN-INT: 15803
GAIN-MND: 15820

Apex Crab #2
GAIN-INT: 15895
GAIN-MND: 15912

Edit:
Tried with Murgleis R6/15, numbers flipped weirdly enough. (these are +55 stat gain spells)
Apex Crab
GAIN-INT: 12174
GAIN-MND: 11924

Perhaps the flip has to do with how the augment is applied on Crocea?

Hmm very intersting, I'm beginning to think Croc's multiplier is on base damage before dSTAT and MDMG is added.


(((201 + WSC) * 2.847) + (dINT * 2) + MDMG) * Croc

vs

((201 + WSC) * 2.847) * Croc) + (dINT * 2) + MDMG

Or possibly

((((201 + WSC) * 2.847) + MDMG) * Croc) + (dINT * 2)

That would explain the results, need to test out the math on a known INT mob to confirm.

Thank you. Saw that on BG-Wiki, but didn't notice the augments composure bonus as its own term. Telchine definitely loses in that calculation.

That said, I calculated Viti. Tabard +3 vs Lethargy Sayon +1 and it put Lethargy Sayon ahead. Can't tell if I did the math wrong, but I counted it a few times and Lethargy body would win except when the enhancing skill is needed. Not sure if I miscalculated something, but it doesn't look like it.

Sounds about right to me with all the other gear but I also made this after I posted the formula onto bg wiki months. It may be of some use if you don't want to do it by hand. http://chiaia.optic-ice.com/Enhancing%20Duration.html

Enfeebling version incoming?

there will be in a bit, since i pretty much nailed that formula now

Just tested some Sanguine blade on sheep outside Adoulin


So it looks like MND is barely better then INT, not sure if it'll change our sets in a meaningful way outside of maybe cape.

Hey fellow jack's, its the curious ryoski yet again.
If its lightsday or Darksday, what enspell do you typically go with?

Whichever element the monster is weakest against or Enblizzard due to Magic Accuracy merits.

Also if MND is better than INT for Sanguine, that means that'll be another -1 to inventory because we'd have to make a MND cape with WSD rather than using our Aeolian INT/WSD cape. Not really happy about that.

Totally makes sense, ty very much!

So another way at looking at the INT vs MND problem is that INT will win in the vast majority of cases (at least with croc anyway), but the margin of damage between them isn't as large as you might at first think... It's about the same difference as using Kaja Knife in Leiu of Malevolence for instance, you're looking at a few hundred damage... With buffs and geo bubbles that could baloon out to be about 1k~2k damage difference, which if you aren't getting resists on your enfeebles, is worth it.

In fact the math as pointed out above gets a little weird in some circumstances, to the point where I personally just stick with Gain-MND unless I'm dealing with Dyna trash mobs.

If you are having trouble fulfilling the enfeebling part of your job with gain INT up though, it can be worth swapping to Gain MND. The damage loss when there is one is minimal, and in some cases your damage will actually be better (especially if you're not using Croc).

I'm fairly convinced at Saevel's suggestion that it's applied before mdmg and stat. After all, the +EWSD is the only relevant stat that would affect it on that sword, so I really don't see another way of explaining it. It would also help explain why the +100% EWSD seems more like +85%ish in practice.

My anecdotal experience at 22/25 seems to be that the higher rank Croc is, that the higher the augment is, the more INT wins by, which just seems to further verify this.

Edit: So this is weird. I remember using MND at first, and then when Kyte said to use INT instead, I went out and tested it.

When I tested it, INT won by about 400 damage on average... but I just went outside and tested it again, and it seems like MND is winning for me at 22/25.

Scratching my head a little... maybe I was just mistaken. Maybe I was right the first time... I seriously don't know anymore.


As for the question about landing Frazzle 3 on the Wave 2 boss in Windurst, You may consider using Stewpot, as it is the best m.acc food, and also gives physical accuracy if you happen to be meleeing as well... From there, you want to have max magic accuracy gear in Frazzle 1, mostly magic accuracy gear in Frazzle 2 with a splash of Enfeebling Effect, and lots of enfeebling effect in Frazzle 3. Being a buff that you can overwrite, it allows you to go for Frazzle 1 after first popping Saboteur, and if you have decent gear and stewpot, this will probably stick on the first or second cast, following that you can stick frazzle 2 for the slightly higher potency (assuming you couldn't start w/ Frazzle 2, in many cases you can), and if you're still having serious issues, if you're /BLM you can always pop ES on Frazzle 2, then overwrite with frazzle 3. Having a Sabo Frazzle 3 with potency gear should make the other enfeebles significantly easier to land.

So to clarify, at R25 Crocea Gain-INT does outperform Gain-MND for damage, whereas it's reversed at lower ranks?

My brain is melting, I don't know anything anymore.

I think there's something wrong with the formula, so when I get the chance (or someone else does before me), I need to take a look at what's going on.

Ok so I had a thought. Back when I tested the Gain INT vs Gain MND, at that time I was using a MND WSD cape, and now I'm using an INT WSD cape. I'll build both, and see if it's a case of diminishing returns causing the opposite to win when you are using the opposite cape. It could be, maybe not.

If it is, I'll be sure to post which combination hits highest.

If i understand the formula for temper and temper II which i believe i have a firm grasp on now. if you have 550 enhancing -300 = 250/10 =25%. my question is if i have +20%DoubleAtt from gear & +25% from temper 1, I would be at 45% DoubleAtt.
Or, with Temper II it would be 20% DoubleAtt from gear & +25% TrippleAtt from spell. my question (and sorry if its dumb i just want to know the rule) in that situation do you always go for the split? or since you can get even higher than 45% DoubleAtt with gear would you go for that?.
I understand TrippleAtt has the ability to make your Weapon Skills's triple attack (maybe just on the first strike?) of multi strike ws's or possibly tripple on a single strike Weapon Skills. Any clarification would be great, thank you guys so much for always helping me.

Statistically, you can essentially look at each triple attack like it's worth 2 double attack, because you are getting 2 extra hits per proc instead of 1. Now that of course does give some diminishing returns to DA due to TA proccing first, but it still means that except for in extreme circumstances like WAR, TA will be the way to go.

I don't know really anything about WAR, but I think that even in the case where you can max out DA, sometimes TA is still useful.

Ok i see ya, that makes perfect sense, thx buddy

My findings from testing line up with those of Indigla and Saevel.

Tested on some Apex Crabs and it looks like MND is the way to go on both cape and gainspell, certainly good news for keeping up enfeebles, anyway...


@R22/25
Set--
ItemSet 365354

Maybe it is different if the mob has really high INT?

Side Note: Don't throw out your INT/WSD capes if you're going to use Red Lotus or Aeolian Edge.

Has anybody tested Sanguine damage with capped Torque +2 vs. Baetyl Pendant? I know MAB is a multiplier, but INT/MND+15 is a pretty decent chunk of attributes.

I did yesterday on an Apex bat in Dho Gates, but didn't write it down and only a couple times. R25 torque won slightly over Baetyl on Murgleis, but lost on Crocea.

For neck Fotia would be what works for most of us. Sanguine Blade is 2.75 fTP that doesn't go up or down, and we get a ton of MAB anyway. Adding 100/1024 to that gets us 2.847 for a 3.52% increase. Haven't checked with the +2 neck though, the INT/MND might be more potent then the fTP bump.

I haven't leveled up my Crocea yet, but Fotia does ~500 less damage compared to Baetyl. Does that change at higher ranks?

I see no change in damage of no neck vs Fotia Gorget, doesn't seem like it works for Sanguine.

Probably doesn't work cause it has no skillchain properties? I assume if it wouldn't work with the normal gorgets/belts it applies to Fotia as well.

Ah didn't think of that, was going purely off the math assuming it always raise's fTP values by 100/1024. But now that you mention SC, the original necks were all aligned on SC properties and since Sang has none you would be correct that Fotia wouldn't work. So back to MAB or +2 RDM neck.

My plan to squeeze the most damage possible was foiled yet again.

Gotta lay off the eucalyptus when you're trying to maximize damage.

My god they need to make frazzle non-elemental or something. Trying to land that ***in wave 3 is.....