Random Politics & Religion #07

What is this simple life you speak of.

Like a cabin in the woods, splitting logs for fire, catching fish by the river while screaming at your wife to get the shotgun?

What do we define today as simple?

I try to avoid technology for 10 minutes a day so I'm doing my part !

Well maybe. Simple for me would not having to sit in traffic going to work. My web browser randomly freezing for no apparent reason. And being able to sit in my back yard without hearing cars buzzing by every 2 seconds.

So yea moving to the woods sounds pretty good at the moment.

What system is fundamentally better than Capitalism? That question has been asked for centuries, and nobody has been able to answer it.

There are economic systems that are comparable, but all of them have been argued (key word: argued, not proven) to be worse than Capitalism.

It may not be perfect, but it's the best we got. If you can prove to the world that your system is better than Capitalism, then I will support you 120%.

Oh, I don't disagree with anything you've said.

Like I said, I'm just speaking in abstracts here.

I'm not arguing against you either, I'm just expanding your points with my thoughts on the matter.

Yes you are!

Fine!

You are a doodoo head!

Take a trip to the woods then. You'll quickly find it's not so easy though perhaps a refreshing change of pace.

Well that or you get sniped by a mountain lion and end up in the papers as 'half eaten corpse found on hiking trail'.

Our system is in need of reforms. The American way of life on it's current course is not in line with globalization and the ease of labor that has resulted in our culture wars here at home.

So many people lack purpose because capitalism has dictated labor is cheaper half way around the world and *** you, small town America. This is a wellspring for nothing but bad. So is the nationalist pushback being peddled as the solution.

Nationalism does not bode well for free markets or efficiency for companies. Underemployment is insane right now. The fact that so many Americans have zero savings and are living their lives off debt is the stuff of nightmares.

no it isn't. our system is great. we're raising the standard of living all over the world and your paranoia about nationalism is unwarranted.

paging president perot ... paging president perot

yeah see... no answer.
clam down bro

Know what's sad? My first thought was "Oh, cool, a Lee-Enfield." Then I saw the mountain lion.

that's great...aren't you supposed to be working!? Posty McPoststoogoddamnmuch

Why I don't recycle/care about nature:

It's raining and were at a standstill until the fill gets there. Owner wants to get it so... I dunno.

Actually, it is in way of globalization. We just import more than we export, which is to be expected with a country of so many "needs."

We live in a culture that demands cheap products but doesn't want to pay for labor at home. You can blame the businesses all you want, but it's the consumers who are truly at fault on this. There is a little change, but not nearly enough to fix the overlying issue about the trade deficit today.

Blame the end-user then. If you want to spend $300 on a 27 inch TV made in China vs. a $500 27 inch TV made in the US, who's really at fault?

Welcome to the changes of environment. Either change with it or become extinct.

That is true, if that is nationalism's only message. It's the only one you want to see, but it's not the only message out there.

Most of it is the government's fault for instituting an expensive "benefit" to companies and redefining part-time labor. If they were really smart (the government I mean), they wouldn't have included the "part-time" copout on Obamacare. Either enforce companies to pay for health insurance for all employees, not federally defined full-time employees, or don't enforce companies to pay for health insurance at all. But defining full time to be 30 hours a week, now most employees have less than 30 hours a week employment. Only those who are "worth it" (in other words, those who brings benefits to the company other than labor, who would have received those benefits anyway) have more than 30 hours a week employment, and those who's effort is minimal (they are there to be there-type of thing) will be cut down to less than sustainable living.

I guarantee you that if the federal government were to double down on this policy and make "full time" definition as anyone who works 20 hours a week or more, you will see those who were at less than 30 hours all go down to less than 20 hours.

This current environment of underemployment is 100% the federal government's fault. You cannot say otherwise.

And who's fault is that? Capitalism? Or the people?

I disagree. Americans want cheap things because Americans don't have the disposable income to buy quality American products. So they settle for the quick and cheap. Anecdotal here but anything that says "Made in America" to me is instantly something I have far more faith in than something Chinese made. It's nothing about geography and everything to do with quality and standards.

Examples: Nordic Ware pans, Darn Tough Socks, Made in America Levi's, LL Bean, Blendtec/Vitamix etc. All American, all superior to most of the garbage we're forced to settle with.


The whole purpose of shifting to outsourcing is to increase corporate profit and... that's about it. The end user is forced to buy whatever the market is churning up as options and for most of us, that "choice" is largely inferior products.

There are no TVs made in the USA to begin with. So much for choice.

I hate to tell you this Lordgrim, but there ain't no quasi about it.

What flavor of capitalism had you in mind?

I can distinguish at least seven flavors of capitalism by year and vineyard. I am also prepared to argue that such outliers as syndicated anarchy are basically capitalistic at their roots.

I mean, at least when I go to IKEA I know I'm getting particleboard and some kind of finish.

Harbor Freight may be one of the best examples of buying literal garbage for quality. Things that break out the box, tools that aren't made properly and hilarious defects.

Seriously guys, if you want to burn your money in a pile for the lulz, just buy some Harbor Freight tools. Same thing.

Currently, your argument may have merit.

However, this demand for cheap products have been happening for decades. 1980s to 2009 we weren't having the economic crisis we are experiencing today, but the demand for cheap products were just as prevalent as it is today. In fact, one could argue that our demands of cheap products back then could be a contributing factor in our current situation today.

Can you explain the demand of cheap products when people had disposable income?

That's actually the general consistence. A person's perception of quality is factored into the location the product is made.

Wrong. When labor is factored to be $XXX when made in the US, but labor is factored to be half of $XXX when made in China (including transportation and duty costs), in order to keep prices low so you can sell equal or more products, then that is the whole purpose of outsourcing.

Do you understand business practices, or are you just guessing?

As defined here, responsible capitalism.

A type of capitalism that occurred between 1980 to 2008, until the economic crisis hit and everyone lost their minds.


We need to go back to that type of capitalism, instead of progressing towards crony capitalism that is happening today.

we all lost our minds a long time ago...

instead of teaching kids about balancing checkbooks and how credit card interest works in school we teach them to be afraid about global warming ...today's lesson was sponsored by NIKE! JUST DO IT! and now let's recite the pledge of allegiance to our founding father bill gates... one nation, under microsoft, don't forget to tell your parents to download windows 10.

something something common core math brought to you in part today by five hour energy now in delicious cheery flavor...concentrate at the speed of sound!

Jesus *** we've got to hear it from them now too!?

There will always be a demand for cheap products as we live in a country with a sliding scale of incomes. Lower incomes will buy the cheap products and feed the perpetual cycle of replacing said products. WalMart etc.

The issue that with incomes stalled and/or backsliding the people who would generally prop up American companies and upper-middle end product lines are not and so those companies are forced to get leaner. This is bad because they don't hire and force more people into the lower end product spectrum. The obsession with cost then completely overtakes quality and not because consumers are idiots, but because they don't have the cash.

You need disposable income to buy quality products. Unless you purchase it on debt. Like many working poor do with luxury products.



KN, I fully understand the business justification for outsourcing. In some instances, it's the only way to a keep a company from going under. Or at least keeping them firmly out of the red. If your company is absorbed into a conglomerate and the decision comes down to move production then that's that.

However, bringing the production costs down to increase turnaround profit speaks nothing to quality. You bring prices down by watering down products with respect to most consumer goods. Less rubber here, a new raw material there, 10% less widgets everywhere.

You gut the original brand, ship it overseas, find ways to cut corners then bring it back with the same brand to dupe consumers. It's business. I don't think anyone intends to intentionally *** over consumers but that's essentially what happens.

I could list a bunch of brands that since moving operations to China have become a shadow of their former selves. It's not a law that this has to happen but most of the time outsourcing is a net negative for a consumer.

how would reforming our economic system stop people from living beyond their means?

or raising minimum wage? the federal minimum wage has been increased 22 times. 23 times is a charm?

capitalism doesn't create idiocy, it just takes advantage of it.

I thought we addressed the underemployment issue already

Sure, businesses have some fault in underemployment, but that's because of consumer/shareholder pressures and (again) federal regulations.

It's always better to cut hours for some than to close down a business due to bankruptcy (and cut hours for all). Most businesses, including multinationals like Walmart have such small profit margins that anything could happen and wipe it clean away. It's actually very easy for Walmart to go bankrupt right now. They don't have a large cash (or cash equivalents) fund compared to other industries. Not saying they are strapped for cash, but something going wrong and they will have no choice but to close stores.....like they are already doing.

And that's just one example.

You shouldn't look at how many billions a company makes, you should look at their profit margins to determine their health. Anything less than 3% could spell disaster at any time, unless they have a reserve for just such an occasion.

Profit and quality are almost mutually exclusive. I say almost because quality can increase profits, but it's not a sole factor in how profit is made. In most cases, quality can lead to losses.

Maybe in your perception of quality. I have a feeling that you automatically assume quality is negative just because it was made in China. Instead of quantifying quality traits themselves.

Which businesses do. Often.

Sometimes, you have to lower overall quality just to stay competitive. Again, that's nature of business. Which is driven by consumer demand.

If consumer demand takes quality over price, then that's a different issue....