Reisenjima T4s
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Reisenjima T4s
Alright, good to know. Might be a little rough for us since it's 18 characters boxed across like... 8-9 people max but I think doable. Is there any specific reason why you burst Aero? Do you have to put up malaise or anything for that? The wiki said the shield can be broken by large damage magic bursts but yesterday clearly proved that wrong.
RNG is definitely path of least resistance for me. Can and have killed it with melee, but so much can go wrong and if you don't have a good ratio of amazing melee:people you're going to have problems once your SV songs start getting dispeled and bolster(s) are gone. Damage turns to garbage, constant dispels/debuffs/etc screw you up, charm becomes a potential wipe scenario. Really need to be able to gank it quick.
I do RNG frequently with: RNG RNG RNG COR GEO BRD PLD RUN WHM WHM Leech Leech And generally kill around 22 min now. Have done under 20 min without leeches. Not much to worry about, if Gaja shield goes up you'll probably lose, but in a dozen or so kills it's only done it once for me so I'm pretty sure it has a time element and won't be an issue if killed asap. RUN tanks adds, charm buffer lasts 50-dead on mantri. Since I'm usually 10boxing, I sit the RUN out for schah because a backup tank isn't really needed, but always an option to keep them on hate list in case a charm or banneret gets through. Never been a problem for me though, shadowbind makes it pretty easy to wait out charm or raise PLD if banneret somehow kills them. If fealty isn't dispelled or eaten by royal decree, fealty > revit > fealty > charm buffer usually lasts 50%-dead anyway. Didn't notice any problem clearing adds with mages, double SV int etudes alongside focus/languor was enough to cap m.acc and blowing gambit or rayke on each gaja/ashva kept them dying before the bad tp could be used. However, schah itself is terrible. Death won't land at all unless threnody is up, and constant use of stygian sphere makes relying on troubadour iffy at best. Probably want two BRDs at least, so you can cycle revits/wild card and spam in between if you run out. If BRD with fully maxed af1+3 etc for m.acc can reliably land threnody, it's probably pretty easy with mages still.
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Leviathan.Nitenichi said: » Fenrir.Ramzus said: » How are people doing Schah these days? Been having a bit of trouble doing it mage style. Gaja goes down a bit slower now so we've been dealing with Beiseger's Bane woes and for whatever reason, we can't get the shield to go down even with multiple SC+MBs. The fight has generally been going really smooth until the last few adds and then it goes south really fast once the Gaja *** us. Just melee, only "problem you run into" is on Gaja have to skillchain and Aero bursts til it breaks. Once past that continue to melee til dead. Extremely straight-forward especially with a group like you have. In nite's group, and on RDM for our Schah runs (2 since update done melee style). When a Gaja throws up a shield, we do burst Aero spells from the GEOs, SCH, and RDM. RUN will Rayke to help us out. Our support is ideal- 2 Idris GEOs, REMA BRD, a COR landing wizard and warlock, and I'll Sab/Elem Seal Frazzle 3. I say this to put it in perspective and to be clear... it's totally doable with proper preparation. Just gotta switch modes when you tackle that add. Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: » RUN tanks adds, charm buffer lasts 50-dead on mantri. Is there a particular reason you guys kill it rather than ignoring it? If you just leave it alone, Besieger's Bane is really the only risk in the whole fight. Update:
Did it RNG method as suggested, infinitely more easy than mage method. Used BoG during Ratha due to seemingly high def (or some sort of general DT.) Had 1 RNG use overkill per Gaja to avoid shield and it never got it up across 3 Schah attempts. Saved bolster for Schah itself and it was going down in about 7 min, very highly recommend RNG over any other method. Our setup was: PLD WHM WHM GEO COR RDMorSCH PUP RNG RNG RNG COR BRD GEO Prelude/Prelude/AGI etude/Agi etude Frail/Fury/Vex Frail/Fury/Torpor during Schah Frail/AGI (bolster/Torpor during Bolster the 2nd WHM, the 2nd COR are 100% unnecessary, we had them there just to get clears going and cause our PLD was dualboxing the WHM so I wanted to make their lives easier. We had a Fomalhaut RNG which made hate pulling a bit iffy the first 2 times so we had them chill out a bit during adds. Some notes about that -
I don't think Ratha has high defense as BoG didn't affect damage too much. It seems more likely that it's a PDT or piercing damage reduction. I do recommend using Overkill (really what else are you gonna use it for) or making sure Double Shot is up for Gaja because I completely agree that the shield is time based. We also killed the Matri (worth it imo because it makes the fight much simpler.) We got it down to 50%, and then used Charm Buffer + Double Shot. It took about as long as a Ratha this way so it wasn't even a big deal and you have some time to spare while waiting for Bhatas anyways. We had a Fomalhaut RNG which made hate pulling a bit iffy the first 2 times so we had them chill out a bit during adds.
Cele, were you there? There's really no reason for them to "chill out" during adds, as their hate shouldn't be capping during their relatively low HP.
Speaking from experience they pulled (along with the COR) hate quite a few times when there were multiple adds out. Keep in mind the PLD isn't gonna get more than a Flash or a Voke off when 5 things are beating on them and with constant Amnesia.
I don't know, I can't say I had that issue when I tanked it, but I was on RUN (we don't use a 2nd tank). If they did pull hate, it was 1 WS away from killing the add (so it didn't matter).
We had PLD pulling adds away just in case Banneret Charge went off and he lost hate few time on adds with RNG pewing at them. As PLD/WAR you only have flash/voke really (other JA have huge timer), I can see it work better with PLD/BLU keep hasted with flash for the pull and spell spam would keep the adds stuck on you. Then again the insane FC RUN gets with JA can make flash/foil spam much more effective
Is this what T4 fights are becoming now? It's not just tonight, but I've been seeing lots of shouts for setups like this for practically everything.
 
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I mean, it probably will be nerfed. I've personally been using RNG on the harder ones lately (Vini/Albu/Schah.)
I think I'll try melee setup on Albumen next round though
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Even without Stuns, we've found Vinipata to be a fairly simple melee fight if you use Idris Wilt as it lowers his damage output greatly. Helps having good WHMs fast on Cursnas, too, as you may be muddled while Doomed. Though if you can afford to mix in the support required for Stuns to land, then obviously that would be preferable.
Simplest methods for each of the HELMs excluding Conduit burns for us are: Melee - Teles, Vinipata, Albumen, Schah THF/Mewing - Erinys, Onychophora Magic Burst - Zerde I'd like to try out RNGs for Schah, but our RNGs suck huge balls. Like, Nirvana/HQ SMN are soooo common... particularly groups of them. And really that's what you need for most of these flashy strats, because without aftermath even the best geared non-mythic SMN is going to be lagging behind significantly damage-wise on VS spams.
Seems very questionable that they'd penalize such a specific setup, when there really isn't a problem with the job generally. As always, the fundamental problem is the way Escha NM scale with numbers making the leanest setups the smart choice. Pet jobs are relatively low-maintenance, so naturally they are popular, but to say they are a one-size-fits-all solution is simply untrue. Odin.Llewelyn said: » Even without Stuns, we've found Vinipata to be a fairly simple melee fight if you use Idris Wilt as it lowers his damage output greatly. Helps having good WHMs fast on Cursnas, too, as you may be muddled while Doomed. Though if you can afford to mix in the support required for Stuns to land, then obviously that would be preferable. Simplest methods for each of the HELMs excluding Conduit burns for us are: Melee - Teles, Vinipata, Albumen, Schah THF/Mewing - Erinys, Onychophora Magic Burst - Zerde I'd like to try out RNGs for Schah, but our RNGs suck huge balls. I don't disagree, the problem is that we typically roll with 14-18 (and a ton of 3-4 boxes) so having 2-3 WHM is a little stressful. You honestly don't need that good RNG, we beat Schah with ~10min remaining using 3x RNG + COR for dps in a 14 person ally. Ragnarok.Inx said: » Like, Nirvana/HQ SMN are soooo common... particularly groups of them. And really that's what you need for most of these flashy strats, because without aftermath even the best geared non-mythic SMN is going to be lagging behind significantly damage-wise on VS spams. Seems very questionable that they'd penalize such a specific setup, when there really isn't a problem with the job generally. As always, the fundamental problem is the way Escha NM scale with numbers making the leanest setups the smart choice. Pet jobs are relatively low-maintenance, so naturally they are popular, but to say they are a one-size-fits-all solution is simply untrue. Smn is broken in two fundamental ways. Astral flow and astral conduit stacking with job points ignores a lot of the normal faults of the job (poor stats vs mob and timers), basically breaking the mechanics that balance us. In perfect situations, we can do roughly 20 pacts in apogee into conduit, and capping damage is quite possible. That's 2 million damage in under a minute. Nirvana is broken. the 3 staves right behind it are was+1, girdarvor, and was. Was+1 is a roughly 9% increase in damage, girdarvor is 8%, and NQ Was is 7%. Nirvana by itself is a 15% increase, pretty respectable for a mythic, considering some of the razor thin margins on other mythics. Nirvana + 3k aftermath is a 40% increase in pact damage assuming a 40% DA rate, this is insanely OP. The November change to FTP has made the 3k tp aftermath insanely strong. It also has on paper made like 4/5 helios gear best in slot over even apogee +1. We can reach 100% DA. It will end up being like BST, people wanting to abuse the mechanics with average/above-average smn gear until its all thats used in the majority of pugs and shouts and enough people complain about it on forums, meanwhile the people who have the mythics and HQ gear will end up QQing because their favorite job got nerfed.
Ruaumoko said: » Is this what T4 fights are becoming now? It's not just tonight, but I've been seeing lots of shouts for setups like this for practically everything. Damn that's badass. Did all those smn spend 4-5billion like some idiots on these forums suggest???? Asura.Frod said: » Smn is broken in two fundamental ways. Astral flow and astral conduit stacking with job points ignores a lot of the normal faults of the job (poor stats vs mob and timers), basically breaking the mechanics that balance us. In perfect situations, we can do roughly 20 pacts in apogee into conduit, and capping damage is quite possible. That's 2 million damage in under a minute. Nirvana is broken. the 3 staves right behind it are was+1, girdarvor, and was. Was+1 is a roughly 9% increase in damage, girdarvor is 8%, and NQ Was is 7%. Nirvana by itself is a 15% increase, pretty respectable for a mythic, considering some of the razor thin margins on other mythics. Nirvana + 3k aftermath is a 40% increase in pact damage assuming a 40% DA rate, this is insanely OP. The November change to FTP has made the 3k tp aftermath insanely strong. It also has on paper made like 4/5 helios gear best in slot over even apogee +1. We can reach 100% DA. Well, for a start off Apogee+1 isn't exactly optimal for physical BP's due to it being severely lacking in pet accuracy. You're also severely downplaying the impact of Nirvana AM3 in the overall picture by placing that 40% boost right at the bottom of a list of things that require perfect execution and preparation to perform. Most SMN will not get near 20 BP's in a conduit zerg even if they are book-ending it with super-revit apogees to gain an extra couple of shots in. And of course assuming they don't get interrupted by the pet getting amnesiad or otherwise immobilized by the battery of enfeebs that these NM's spam. Like any sort of physical zerg, effectiveness is largely dependent on the quality of the player buffs/target enfeebs in place. With that sort of backing, pretty much any group of Mythic class/high-end DD has the same chance of winning fast. Sorry but after the awful hash-up SE made when nerfing BST, I'd hate to see SMN suffer the same fate, particularly when the "problem" only manifests when you get a bunch of Mythic SMN burning SP's in in conjunction under ideal circumstances. Nerfs suck. Playing whack-a-mole with jobs that rise to the top of the pack for utility will just hasten the demise of this game. Nerfs may suck, but being able to ignore essentially every part of albumen, vinipata, teles, schah, erinys, WoC and throw the same generic setup with 0 gearswaps and minimal thought is not good balance nor is it good for longevity. That's 6/8 of the difficult NMs that you can kill with no setup changes, minimal strategy, and minimal adaptation needed. I'm sure you can do onychophora a bit slower with nirvanas as well, and zerde requires a magic set but otherwise same thing..
No thought means little player engagement, people will get bored of spamming SMN zerg much faster than they'll get bored of doing the fights in an engaging manner. Never mind that it reduces the difficulty from requiring a somewhat coordinated setup and good gear to requiring a few people willing to RMT or farm a nirvana and some apogee pieces then mash one macro. Doesn't really matter anyway, it's pretty obvious it will be nerfed. The question isn't if, but when and how. It's no surprise the guy saying it doesn't need to be nerfed is currently using a freshly burned up/geared SMN.
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This is just silly. You don't need SMN to zerg Teles or WoC! Zerde has always been speedkill with stun/nuking. Schah can be zerged, but if you are going with larger groups ranged attacks are the way to go.
Erinys is easy prey with THF/SA-DD's with SMN on TP suppression. If Oncy is giving you trouble... yeesh... Stop manufacturing a problem that simply doesn't exist. Right now strats are far more varied than they were pre GEO-nerf, where BLM's did far more of the heavy lifting than SMN do today,. I didn't say they were difficult for me. I can multibox an entire set of clears in under 6 hours with no help from anyone else and no cheesy SMN burn. However, I do job changes, the fights flow differently, there is thought involved. Non-SMN zergs, even with 3x the value in gear spread across amazing melee with prebuffs, take much longer than the SMN equivalent.
If SMN wasn't so much better than the other options, why did YOU just burn it up? Ragnarok.Inx said: » Asura.Frod said: » Smn is broken in two fundamental ways. Astral flow and astral conduit stacking with job points ignores a lot of the normal faults of the job (poor stats vs mob and timers), basically breaking the mechanics that balance us. In perfect situations, we can do roughly 20 pacts in apogee into conduit, and capping damage is quite possible. That's 2 million damage in under a minute. Nirvana is broken. the 3 staves right behind it are was+1, girdarvor, and was. Was+1 is a roughly 9% increase in damage, girdarvor is 8%, and NQ Was is 7%. Nirvana by itself is a 15% increase, pretty respectable for a mythic, considering some of the razor thin margins on other mythics. Nirvana + 3k aftermath is a 40% increase in pact damage assuming a 40% DA rate, this is insanely OP. The November change to FTP has made the 3k tp aftermath insanely strong. It also has on paper made like 4/5 helios gear best in slot over even apogee +1. We can reach 100% DA. Well, for a start off Apogee+1 isn't exactly optimal for physical BP's due to it being severely lacking in pet accuracy. You're also severely downplaying the impact of Nirvana AM3 in the overall picture by placing that 40% boost right at the bottom of a list of things that require perfect execution and preparation to perform. Most SMN will not get near 20 BP's in a conduit zerg even if they are book-ending it with super-revit apogees to gain an extra couple of shots in. And of course assuming they don't get interrupted by the pet getting amnesiad or otherwise immobilized by the battery of enfeebs that these NM's spam. Like any sort of physical zerg, effectiveness is largely dependent on the quality of the player buffs/target enfeebs in place. With that sort of backing, pretty much any group of Mythic class/high-end DD has the same chance of winning fast. Sorry but after the awful hash-up SE made when nerfing BST, I'd hate to see SMN suffer the same fate, particularly when the "problem" only manifests when you get a bunch of Mythic SMN burning SP's in in conjunction under ideal circumstances. Nerfs suck. Playing whack-a-mole with jobs that rise to the top of the pack for utility will just hasten the demise of this game. Accuracy is an almost entirely irrelevant stat on gear when you're doing conduit burns, you're job master, and you're using an idris geo and +5/+7 double crooked cor as you should. I sit at 1500+ accuracy with my gear which includes helios band, convoker's doublet +3, merlinic hands, and apogee +1 legs and feet. You're also right that Apogee +1 isn't optimal, i already said as much. Helios is best on most slots due to 7 bpd, 8 DA. I believe you'd want perfect helios on all slots but legs, where apogee +1 is better even with losing the +2 bpd because of set bonus. The differences between helios and apogee +1 are like <.5% each though. I'm not downplaying the large boost from nirvana + t3am. Fact is with the way af/ac spamming works, you can do anything perfectly fine with girdarvor/was smns. You might just need to take extra smn. 'most smn won't hit 20 pacts due to blah blah' You're taking a perfect situation and assuming problems with it. There are setups for these burns that almost completely counter all sorts of debuffs or actions on the summoner and the pet, Largely it's just 'bring a RUN tank'. "other DDs can" No they can't, not on the same party setup scale as a conduit burn. I can't think of a single DD job that can pump out as much damage as smn can in one minute, and that's becoming the problem. Ragnarok.Inx said: » This is just silly. You don't need SMN to zerg Teles or WoC! Zerde has always been speedkill with stun/nuking. SMN is king DD on Zerde too, even pre blm/death nerf. My setup is to bring a single BLM to proc, then Conduit Meteor strike with SCH skillchains. Let's not forget that SMN needs 1 COR(2 if you really want), 1 GEO, and a tank. Fight is over so fast that initial hate JA and valuable 1hrs like odyllic subterfuge can last essentially the entire fight.
Melee need a BRD and a GEO to be able to cap acc/attack. They should have 1-2 CORs to boost damage, and still take 4x longer to do the amount a SMN can do in their initial conduit rush. On teles, they need a second GEO just to stay alive. On albumen, they need a second GEO and a second BRD to stay alive and clear enough of debuffs to survive through the fight. On warder of courage, the difference in fight length adds a pretty huge luck element unless you roll out with full buffs, which again, is much more than smn requires and still results in a much longer fight. Anyone who is adamant that it's balanced is either terribly dependant on it or has never seen it done properly.
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: » If SMN wasn't so much better than the other options, why did YOU just burn it up? We don't. That's the point. Mostly we use SMN as an adjunct to regular melee or ranged attacks. Teles is just strong DD's, Oncy we use BST because Fangs can't skillchain and do high damage, BLM on Zerde, Erinys mostly THF for piercing bonus, etc. We do Aeonics to get our members weapons, so we prefer to go in large-ish groups (12+) because frankly its less hassle than splitting over multiple runs and reforming/farming Revits in Altep each cycle. PS. I wasn't trying to single you or anyone out with the Oncyphora comment, its just that its as difficult a fight as the group doing it wants to make it. Nah, I'm talking about you specifically. You aren't a career SMN or anything. Your guildwork updates show you collecting all the gear needed for SMN zerg over the past couple months, since the initial post about using it for schah and the subsequent bandwagon.
If it's definitely not overpowered and it can't do anything other jobs can't do as well, why did you hop on the bandwagon yourself? Just wondering, has it ever been figured out exactly what affects Clarsach Call damage on Teles? Seems so incredibly random sometimes from next to no damage to 2000+ regardless if she has buffs on her or not.
It's wind damage, if you use baraera wind carols and attunement/vex it'll almost always be resisted to next to nothing. Scherzo helps too if you can't spare all of those.
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