Killer Instinct: The Beastmaster Compendium

This is all true too, but if the BST isn't the one spending their own TP and adjusting DW gear, someone else has to. As a practical matter, I don't run into a ton of situations where parties are thrilled to set things up to intentionally optimize for maximum BST DPS. If you happen to be running with a DNC main, sure. If no DNC main, I feel like most parties would probably prefer BST to be one of the first jobs to sacrifice their subjob in order to go /DNC for the greater good of the party.

Like, if you have a choice between BST/WAR + COR/DNC, versus BST/DNC + COR/DRG... I think most parties trying to maximize total party DPS would tend to default to asking the BST to be the one to have to suck it up and go /DNC, so the COR gets the benefit of more/stronger Savage Blades or Leaden Salutes which are at least probably perceived as stronger than Calamity or whatever from a BST (assuming the COR and BST have relatively similar quality gear, and we're not talking about a mule Roll-COR with mediocre melee/WS gear or something).

Now, someone here might have data showing that it's actually preferable for overall party DPS to have the COR or someone else be the one to /DNC instead of a BST. If so, that's interesting - please share more! But I don't think that would be the standard assumption among the overall FFXI playerbase, so at the very least may require the BST to do some explaining as to why someone other than them should be the /DNC.

Personally always assigned samba duties to the brd or cor if they're /dnc. It's generally a net gain regardless of who does it so long as they arent natively overcapping DW (rip nin) and have a set ready to swap into with samba active. And that's just for the user, technically everyone benefits unless already delay capped(2 handers) or they're a nin

It's more a case of.. there's already a cor brd that are likely subbing dnc or even a dnc main. Bst doesn't also need to do it in that case.

Generally not seen many cors prefer /nin, some brds do.

If you know there's already someone doing samba, why would you also go /dnc. Unless of course you have no set ready for /nin with samba.

If you get an actual party invite firstly what game are you playing it's not XI secondly you do whatever the party wants idc what sub you want.

As far as data showing bst benefits more from haste samba.. already showed it. That party setup was cor/nin brd/nin with dnc main haste samba and sets for it, without any DW.

So you have less DW to possibly be overcapped on(this is more relevant for when a dnc main is present), to have 2 tiers 1 tier of acc bonus, to have skillchain bonus, along with just general spot utility.

If ever there's a real need for shadows that can push you to /nin again but those are pretty rare

COR/DRG? I'm lost. I'm not sure I've seen this before at all, so educate me. Are people actively subbing DRG on Corsair for "stronger Savage blades" (meh)? That doesn't seem like it's the most optimal support job, if the context of the discussion is providing support for the party in general.

Well the offhand doesn't get a tpbonus so it wouldn't be ridiculous.

If there is someone doing samba. Dunno if it's better or worse just not completely silly

The only practical scenario I could envision that would benefit from /DRG as Corsair main would be mimicing Xolla's Oathsworn Master Trial, but for that, it wouldn't be for Savage Blade, but Su5 OAT MH and High Jump/Super Jump to clear hate, while spamming Leaden. Ditto for any other fight you can use a sub and need to clear your ceiling hate.

DRG sub works for most jobs because they're either 2-handers or otherwise heavy DD, or for the single wielders like WAR BST and even BRD, they get a Fencer trait to pair on top of it, so they get even stronger single handed WS, and Haste Samba just makes them even better. If they're a DW job natively like THF NIN or DNC, the sub works well also. It doesn't really work the same for non-native DW jobs like RDM or COR (RDM would be a better candidate for /drg because it Tps fast).

COR benefits far too much from an offhand in most situations (their shield options are terrible), and your offhand adds damage to your WS as well, including whatever stats come from Gleti's/Crepuscular Knife. You also TP way faster with an offhand weapon than you ever would single wielding with a sword on COR in standard TP set, so I don't see much of a use for it in most cases. I would say in most modern content, /DNC is the standard for COR, /NIN for like a MT you need survivability.

I think if its dnc main samba itd push single wield up, 2% off delay cap iirc without a tp hit in dw(plus being overcap in said dw) along with seperate wad bonus which would outweigh any oh stats. Shields do suck and probably stuck with nusku. COR has its own fencer in tp bonus gun

This is purely for meme blade

I'll even grant it, SB damage would be higher with /drg. I still can't think of a single event in the game that would warrant that additional DPS for the purpose of solely doing higher savage blade damage to the exclusion of practically any other utility.

I may have been loopy suggesting COR/DRG, but fine whatever, maybe COR/WAR for similar reasons as people are suggesting BST/WAR? COR/NIN for more DW and not spending its TP and JA delay on /DNC abilities?

It just feels a little weird to me that there's the idea that we're doing what is best for optimal BST damage in a party setting. Maybe sometimes that's just how it breaks down, but IDK, usually I tend to feel like BST is one of the jobs you'd look pretty seriously at being the one to use a /DNC sub and spend its TP due to the offense it usually brings to the table relative to other DDs.

Optimizing around WAR damage and forcing another party member to do the Samba makes perfect sense to me, because WAR dishes out a ton of damage by virtue of having better offensive JAs than BST. And hey, BST benefits too if they're in the party. But party composition focused on maximizing the BST's output seems... well, harder to convince a lot of parties.

Not really exactly this. Dodik was sharing his parse and dps comparison between a bst/dnc with kclub vs a bst/war. Both had dnc main job haste samba. From that, he gathered that so long as BST is getting a haste samba from like a dancer main or sub, it made more sense for BST to sub war for more damage, as the /dnc wasn't helping it pull ahead of fencer/berserk/da/ma build.

I don't think he was saying that a party should necessarily do what is best for BSTs damage, but that if the party comp already satisfies conditions for BST to sub something else and improve it's damage, why not?

Oh for sure, I do think the whole discussion is pretty cool. Just trying to figure out, well, is that really the best party comp?

I tried doing a 20 step skillchain w/ Aymur + Diamond Aspis, and that seems to be the limit for skillchains.

Don't think it has anything to do with best, just a statement of "if this ever occurs".

Correct.


So you're saying we shouldn't be optimising bst dmg in a party setting because it's just a bst? If it were any other job, that's cool, but because it's bst..

I mean if you want to test cor/Drg or cor/war or any other crackpot idea and find that total party dps increases more by having cor/war and bst/dnc than cor/dnc and bst/war then I'll use that setup.

Failing that, the setup that gives bst an extra 24% dps is objectively better than the setup that gives bst 24% less dps. That extra dps on bst translates to an extra 5% dps on the party as a whole, 9400 and 9000 party dps respectively.

Love to see some data showing a dps increase on the party with cor/war..

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying you were only optimizing one of six jobs in a party. I'm talking about how to best optimize all six jobs, and in particular that if someone has to go /DNC to maximize party DPS, who should that be?

Some quick and dirty damage simulator numbers below, obviously not perfect but some good ballpark info.
Universal assumptions: ML35, Haste Samba, +8 songs (March x2 Min x2), +7 Sam/Chaos rolls, Dia II, target Lugcrawler Hunter. Reasonably high end TP/WS sets (Nyame 25 AF/Relic+4, etc.)
Each job's /DNC DPS numbers below will be lower in reality, because I don't think the Kastra sim accounts for using TP to maintain Haste Samba.

BST (Farsha AM3 up, Calamity)
1. BST/WAR (Diamond Aspis, Berserk up): ~6000DPS, ~40k WS avg
2. BST/WAR (Diamond Aspis, Berserk down): ~5100DPS, ~34.5k WS avg
3. BST/WAR blended average (Berserk up 60% of the time, i.e. 0.6x set 1 above + 0.4x set 2): ~5640 DPS, ~37.8k WS avg

4. BST/DNC (Farsha AM3/Diamond Aspis, Calamity): ~4000DPS, ~34k WS avg
5. BST/DNC (Farsha AM3/Ikenga R25, Calamity): ~3700 DPS, ~31k WS avg
*Note the 1h Fencer build coming out on top - and even if I bumped Ikenga's Axe up to R30 it was just slightly under the Fencer build (~3950 DPS)

COR (Naegling, Savage Blade):
COR/DNC (sub /Gleti R25): ~5300 DPS, ~45k WS Avg
COR/WAR (Berserk up): ~3750 DPS, ~34.5k WS Avg
COR/DRG: ~3600 DPS, ~34.5k WS Avg

COR (Rostam B, Leaden):
COR/DNC: ~5150 DPS, ~47k WS Avg
COR/WAR: ~7100 DPS, ~47.5k WS Avg
COR/DRG: ~7200 DPS, ~48.5k WS Avg

If you combine those, assuming one of the COR or BST has to come /DNC and use Samba:
1. BST/DNC (Fencer) + COR/DRG (Leaden) = 11,200 DPS
2. BST/WAR (Blended) + COR/DNC (Savage) = 10,940 DPS
3. BST/DNC (Fencer) + COR/DNC (Savage) = 9,300 DPS

So yeah, where Leaden works on your target, there's an example where it's slightly more optimal to have the BST be the one to come /DNC. Very close in the above numbers, but if you had magical debuffs/buffs (e.g., a GEO using Geo-Malaise, Indi-Acumen, etc.) that would pump up Leaden even more and the gap would widen. Then again, if Leaden DOESN'T work well on the mobs you're fighting, it does appear that COR is the better job to come /DNC.

Might take away from this that it's OK to err on the side of COR/DNC and BST/WAR as a default, even where the COR can viably use Leaden, with the notable exception that if using buffs that further increase Leaden damage (i.e., Acumen/Malaise) it's probably worth using BST/DNC. Even though COR can get similar Leaden numbers regardless of subjob, since Leaden is doing more damage than Calamity it would be ideal to have the BST be the one using its TP to maintain Samba (freeing the COR up to use all TP for WS damage).

You might even consider whether your BST can reliably use Berserk or not (too dangerous, etc.), in which case BST/WAR damage goes down and might become less appealing. But eh, also not that huge of a difference.

Comments welcome if anyone sees major flaws in the methodology (which isn't intended to be some definitive precise rule either, just an illustration)

Not that I'm an advocate for suicide, but technically they can have 100% uptime of double Berserk effect with Rage from Sheep.

Actually, they should be able to pair Rage with Defender for +27% defense, cutting the Rage defense penalty down to -23% (normally -50%), right? You can be creative with the Defender JA for a fulltime effect of Berserk, so long as you re-use Rage every time it falls (at 3k TP, it lasts a whopping 9 minutes).


If WAR can use Berserk, then BST definitely can since they have Snarl to remove any hate they may get.

No one has to go /dnc because the party has a dnc main in it. Which I've repeated a half dozen times by now.

If I needed someone to go /dnc, it would be either a brd or a pld or something, neither cor nor bst.

Why, because cor dps is maximised by going /nin and not wearing any DW gear with haste samba from a /dnc, which I already know from experience. As your own simulator stuff shows, cor benefits a lot from having dual wield. cor/war or cor/drg is not a thing if you care about dps and are main-handing a Naegling for physical dmg. Which I am, and no, changing all the buffs to suit leaden doesn't maximise party dps which is entirely physical either.

The premise of "I need someone to /dnc for me might as well be bst" is flawed. Party dps is not optimised by forcing a job that benefits greatly from not dual wielding to dual wield just so they can do haste samba for you. Have a job that's already dual wielding do it, like a brd, dnc, or yes, a cor.

Further more, the difference between what the simulator thinks DPS should be vs what it actually is is very large (again, just read my original post), some 400dps or 20% difference from sim to real world. Taking that and making a whole bunch of assumptions on top to "simulate" party dps is just flawed.

Snarl is irrelevant if there's dangerous AoE, for instance. But yeah, that probably means WAR wouldn't be using it either, so your "If WAR can use Berserk..." statement remains true :)


Yes, I get it. That's your one particular party setup and it had a DNC main. Cool, I loved seeing the information you provided about that. But that is a nice jumping off point for things that are more broadly applicable for using BST in parties other than YOUR one specific party.

I'm now proceeding to a logical extension of that discussion, which is that a lot of the time you might find yourself on BST and in a party WITHOUT a DNC main. In that rather common case, I was trying to think about who would be the best party member to handle Sambas. A lot of people do tend to have the COR handle it, which is why I was looking a lot at COR.


Even in the scenarios I ran through the sim, with only melee buffs (HM/VM/Min5/Min4 + Chaos/Sam), Leaden Salute is STILL doing more damage than any physical WS from either job. That's often going to be the case just because it's a good WS. So I'm not saying "changing all the buffs". I am saying that maybe your party also has a GEO (or you're in an alliance with a GEO or two) and somebody drops a Malaise bubble - OK, that makes Leaden EVEN BETTER. Especially if you're there on BST and can use Slug, you might have everyone already capping attack (Corrosive Ooze + Chaos Roll + BRD attack buffs + Dia is a lot) so if there was a GEO there, I'd probably be looking at Malaise as more useful at that point.


Who cares whether they're already dual wielding? Dual wielding or not, whoever is using Sambas is also doing less frequent WS just due to the TP cost (and JA delay) to maintain it. You probably don't really want the job that is firing off higher damage WS to be the one sacrificing THEIR TP to provide Sambas to the rest of the party - pick someone whose WS are weaker relative to the other party members.

If comparing the COR and BST in my above scenarios, the strongest DD potential in order is:
1. COR if magical WS is viable/not massively resisted (even without any magical buffs)
2. BST using purely physical WS
3. COR using purely physical WS



Simulators/spreadsheets/etc are not perfect and never have been, but the Kastra sim is one of the best tools we currently have to estimate DPS performance. All I did was tell everyone the parameters I set for transparency's sake, not sure what you mean by "a whole bunch of assumptions".

Your actual real world data is useful too. But I didn't have time to go run multi-hour CP parties with multiple permutations of party setups.

Which ones specifically? Lately, there hasn't been much physical AOE moves that aren't either conal or something Beastmen specific in an Ambu rotation (Grand Slam for example). Maybe Whirl of Rage from Evil Weapons? Fluid Spread from Smiles? Something from Naraka? Everything recently has been magical damage. You're far more in danger of dying from a magical AOE move than a physical one. If there's something that is a dangerous physical AOE, just don't use it.

Which is why I said brd should /dnc if you need it.

The sim does not necessarily show this, but bst is, or can be, a lot more ahead of cor in actual dps. 10% total damage a lot more or 800dps or so. Which is what I think is perhaps being missed here.

Nothing specific in mind, just a small general comment. But I could see it being relevant in Limbus NMs or something.

And yeah, use Berserk or don't, depending on situation. It's not even that huge of a difference here, and might not even be necessary depending on target and other buffs/debuffs (e.g., Slug def down + Dia + atk buffs may be sufficient to cap attack without Berserk). Just something I always consider for any job (this isn't specific to BST) when thinking about subjob - if /WAR with Berserk up is roughly equivalent DPS to some other sub, I'd lean toward the choice that doesn't come with a substantial defense penalty.

It almost doesn't matter for BST anyways which sub you pick. Lynx has +25% attack without any defense penalty. /WAR sub is more for the extra 12% DA, which IMO seems like less of a reason to use it at all, given the large number of MA gear options available.