The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

@Afania

Not sure if people was late to utilize TP bonus. I don't think it was bis before REMA augmenting and it was mentioned in DNC thread is September. What made it completely irrelevant for DNC was also WSD bug, which made Terpsi/Pyrrhic far better than Twashtar/TPbonus (outside of 1hr 6x C Rudra zerg maybe)
For BLU it was closer, but WSD bug also kept CDC option very close to Tizona/TPbonus option, so none would even bother to try that.

@Afania @Veikur

Ryuno was always close to Trishula with AM3 up, because of faster TP gain and multihit being very potent for Stardiver. Taking sets from bgwiki guide and making my own calculations, I have Trishula doing 30%/21%/3% higher Stardivers at 1000/2000/3000 TP, but Ryuno having 24% more TP per second and that's before SAM roll, which will favors Ryuno. Taking into account that Ryuno also boosts Jump and DRG overtping a lot with normal rounds and especially jumps, you can even make a case for Ryuno being better for pure DPS in group. Let's not forget about Trishula's skillchain potency for solo tho.

@Kukiki

AFAIK Bats take 25% more damage from piercing, so this is what boosted your DPS significantly.

Sure you will probably do more damage with skillchains solo, but that actually also favors TP bonus offhand.

Instead of exen>pk>evis>rudra, you can do exen>rudra>evis>rudra. Exentrator will be better with Terpsi, buts its a weak WS anywya and it's also an opening WS, so it's damage is the the least important. Rudra's shoudl do more than PK and evisceration should do around the same with Twashtar/TP bonus and Terpsi/Twashtar (TP bonus adds ~20% crit rate vs Terpsi AM3 adding multhit). Lastly the closing Rudra will be by far stronger with Twashtar/TPbonus.

There is also 3step darkness with 2x climatic Rudra.
Evis > Rudra > Rudra, which undoubtedly favors Twashtar/TPbonus by a lot.

You benefit from 50%PDT set. Fan Dance goes beyond 50% PDT, reducing remaining damage by 20-90%, so your total PDT with 50%PDT set and Fan Dance will be 87.5% (because that's max) and will drop to 60% with minimum Fan Dance bonus (62.5% if you use relic+3 gloves with 5/5 Fan Dance)

Nope, it was mentioned lonnnng time ago and being used by some people that I know of lonnnnng time ago. It's not new.

For example this is a 2017 discussion:

http://www.ffxivpro.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/161/


You just weren't around :P

Just because it's not used by everybody nor as game changing as blu doesn't mean it's not being used at all.

There is a big difference between using TP bonus as regular offhand weapon vs using it for Erinys fight, where you don't engage and only do SA/TA Rudra's and this is what discussion was about

Well I posted this right before update, does that count?

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/36654/for-the-shinies-a-guide-for-thief/173/

The people that have been using it for long long time doesn't post on these forums nor talk about it lol. Guess that's why it wasn't a thing.

From my observation, People generally have hard time accepting lower tier weapons having better performance than higher tier weapons. For example before upheaval gets better gear and catch up to reso, Mont +1/reso was stronger than rag/reso and GA builds. And yet people can't understand why Mont +1 is better in any way. They just assume rag is bis because it's Rema, and Mont is ***because it's unm weapon. Then when pro Mont argument being made people wrote pages of things to defend for rag and they are mostly not valid.

This is how people view tp bonus offhand from what I've seen. Tp bonus is always there. Ws always scale well since 2014 update. But most people have hard time understanding why tp bonus + acc songs > attack songs and often wrote pages of argument because they want attack song as 4th song, or they couldn't get why lv 99 weapon is bis.

That being said, I think the reason why it become more of a thing now is because it's so damn good on blu. It wasn't THAT game changing on dagger jobs and mostly viable on teles only. As soon as people see blu do 45k ws over and over they will consider it on other jobs.

It counts Afania, but it was still a niche weapon, usable mostly for SV zergs. What really made it worth for more content were augments on Tizona skyrocketing Expiacion damage AND adding 30 accuracy and JSE necks adding 44 accuracy. That 74 extra accuracy is a huge deal for this build on BLU. It's almost the same for DNC where you get 44 accuracy from neck and 15 accuracy from Twashtar augments and Twashtar having so much bonuses for Rudra (70dex, +10%dmg, Aftermath) but starving for TP. The reason it wasn't picked up earlier (tho my idea of tp bonus for Tizona came not long after update) was WSD bug, which buffed CDC and Pyrrhic to the roof.

It's also worth pointing out, that for regular use, BLU white damage drop is not as huge, because of melee hits split in favor of Tizona and for DNC Twashtar AM makes up for white damage drop on offhand.

EDIT: One more thing for DNC. JSE neck is by far the best neck for Rudra's and it comes with 10%PDL. With capped attack, it boosts Rudra's damage by a lot vs previous best Caro Neck. Now for PK the boost from this neck is not so big, because previous best neck Fotia, is a huge deal for PK. Another reason to search for setup based on Rudra's after the neck was added to the game.

There is little that you can blood tank with Fan Dance and 50% DT that you couldn't tank with only 50% DT. The only thing I can think of is hoards of monsters (with Phalanx) at just the right level. Fan Dance is best used as a failsafe for DNC/NIN, because you can take 3-4 unexpected (potentially large) hits every 3 minutes and be pretty sure they won't kill you. It also comes with an Enmity boost, which doesn't hurt your tanking.

Thanks for answering my question about the use of TP Bonus dagger, the various answers confirm what I though that it is a very viable option for the use-cases I had suggested (wave1/2 dyna, omen fodder, etc with Twashtar main). I do have a Terps but I have not yet had the opportunity to AG yet (I have every intention of doing so but other things unfortunately need to take priority).

With Byrth's post above about usage of Fan Dance has made me think some more about the usage of No Foot Rise, I currently have 3 merits in it. I have wondered for some time before the update about its value but given that Presto + Step now gives me 6+ finishing moves is there much value in it? Would I be better having extra 2 or 3 merits in Fan Dance, or more like Saber Dance? Having TP before a battle begins is useful but more often than not I am /SAM or there are fodder mobs around and failing that the first attack round will give enough TP for steps.

The Presto change definitely devalued No Foot rise, but there's still merit in it imho.
Getting FMs/TP before engaging in BCs or stuff like that.
Also it's nice mid-ClimacticFlourish since it returns like what, 250TP when you use it? (with the related relic piece)

I think it's mostly a matter of Closed Position being more attractive for most people, especially if you use the Relic Feet.
If for whatever reason you don't want to get Closed Position, I guess NFR still has its uses, even if it's clearly devalued after last patch.

@SimonSes

I would like to know what mobs those numbers people are posting were tested on, if I remember right those were tested on Apex Bats aswell so same advantage, and other tests I've read about were performed on Teles, so same advantage.

As for using Rudra as a distortion WS instead of PK I would if I could stack with Climactic, otherwise, while using Terp I'm getting higher numbers atm with 1k PK than with 2250 TP rudras, I know I might still be missing some gear, but PK is doing between 30-50k on those bats and my rudras at full TP are not hitting 50k at all with the same buffs. I also like using PK in the SC for its higher TP return.

With climactic it's a different story but considering how fast you get tp with terp and the lower delay on twash I usually just hold the WS a bit and in most cases get between 70000 - 99999 rudras so TP bonus doesn't matter that much.

There was no tests. Those are spreadsheet numbers and target in sheet was indeed Apex Bat probably, but setting apex bat in sheet is about it's defense and evasion, I highly doubt it takes into consideration +25% piercing damage.

What you mean by 2250 Rudra? Terpsi/TPbonus or Terpsi/Twashtar and doing Rudra's with 2000TP?

On neutral target:
Rudra with augmented Twashtar main will do ~34.5k at 2250TP
PK with augmented Terpsi will do on avg ~31k

Without augmented Twashtar in main hand, TP bonus has no chance vs Terpsi, because it requires Twashtar's DEX and Rudra's damage bonus to push Rudra's high enough and Twashtar's AM to counter low white damage from Centovente.

Yes, I meant wsing around 2000 tp (and adding moonshade tp bonus), also, thanks for clarification.

i don’t care enough about dancer to do any numbers on it but i had ryu almost 20% behind trish using the same sets pre augmented. jumps would close the gap some but not that much. curious what your numbers show that has it close

and up until very recently, Ryu was considered the "worst" DRG REMA once Trishula came out by the majority of the community. The DRG guide still has Ryu performing the worst though its standing has improved since the last patch.

In general it's sad to see your favorite weapons overshadowed by less interesting options. It's an MMO, change is a part of the game, but that doesn't really change the emotional impact of such changes

@Austar

TBH I dont care for DRG that much XD I don't have any numbers simulating whole cycle of DPSing. For most jobs I care about I use both my own calculations and spreadsheets, but for DRG I just made an assumption, that if Trishula is doing at most 30% more damage with Stardiver (my own calculation shows avg 24186/34057/36525 Stardiver for 1000/2000/3000TP with trishula and 18517/28013/35135 for Ryu) and Ryu has 24% faster TP generation (according to my own calculations without rolls Trishula has 259.3 TP/sec and Ryu 322.2), then Ryu can't be far behind Trishula.

But if you actually simulate whole DPS cycle for lets say 5 minutes and include everything, there might be some things favoring Trishula, that I don't see at first look.

EDIT: I took sets from this guide https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Here_Be_DRGs

A few additional issues--

Aside from the damage rating and the TP bonus on Trishula, the AM effectively increases skillchain damage and also increases the number of skillchains that happen in spam scenarios.

Also, while Ryu benefits from Jumps, DRG often does not. It's gotten better now, with the addition of certain gear pieces, and the ability to "cancel" JA delay with more jumps since the new update, but in max-haste scenarios the JA delay from Jumps actually can reduce DPS overall depending on the situation.

I was trying to make the case for this in DRG thread. I almost got murdered by DRGs there and eaten by their wyverns.

i do except jumps since at the time we didn’t have information on some of the gear and i never bothered to go and add them.

I'm no expert, but for me personally I think 3 No Foot Rise still works well. When I enter a fight:
No Foot Rise (3FM) (150tp)
Meditate 600tp
Saber Dance
*Optional* Haste Samba
Engage
Presto Step (9FM)
TP to 2k
Sekkanoki
Climacatic Flourish (4FM remaining)
Rudra
Rudra
Reverse Flourish
Rudra

Based on this, I believe you could get away with only 2 merits into No Foot Rise, but the benefits of 1 merit into Saber/Fan seem so minimal to me, I don't bother.

I still like my 3 in NFR for aingle-shot fights: NFR + RF in your pre-fight buff so you can get an aftermath rolling that much more quickly. Not gonna die on the hill or it being optimal.

Math I did shows all jumps to be both damage and tp gain efficient, even with capped haste. More so with Ryu than Trish.

Only thing I didn't do was figure out how the weaponskills benefit. Its frankly too obnoxious, by hand, to work out Drakesbane numbers and figure where the tp threshold is for stardiver to outperform Drakes when using Ryu.

So I went to check on Apex bats with my 14rank neck and 9rank Twashtar with TP bonus offhand. I couldn't make 4 or even 3 step darkness. Rudra was doing minimum 35k exactly at 1000TP, but I had few 42k at 1000TP. I also had few 43.5k at 1500TP. Generally Rudra>Rudra was enough to kill (sometimes bats were left with 5%, if second Rudra was close to 35k).

DRG forum is a safe space, mentioning anything other than Trish requires a “Trigger” warning.



I always had 3/5 NFR, last week I tried 1/5 NFR and gave the rest to Saber Dance, DPS increased by 2% in SV Zerg [more testing is needed]

Granted that, the idea to start off with 9/9 finishing moves, and 750 TP is attractive when you’re 3/5 NFR.
But..
I resorted to the conclusion that, having extra 10s of samba when 1/5 NFR, would constitute an improvement to quality of life, so I opted for that instead, I can’t keep up with DNC overflow anyway.

In the end the damage is pretty similar if you're in a WS spam situation, and for skillchaining it doesn't matter because I usually go Evis > PK > Rudra for 3-step, on Apex bats tho, you normally kill in 2 shots.



But I normally prefer to keep my accuracy up on both weapons so that way I can focus my buffs on attack, so even if Twash/Centovente combo wins for Raw damage, I find that combo to be very situational.

As for Rudra damage, since with Terp I normally just use it when I can stack it with Climactic, I don't see that TP bonus such a changer, as normally I would be WSing at higher TP anyway, and with Terpsichore's AM3, doing the 2nd Climactic Rudra at higher TP is also possible (normally can make a Evis > Rudra > Rudra with both rudra's at ~2k TP), getting a 3rd in is also possible but reduces the amount of TP used.



On this second screenshot my 2nd rudra got screwed because my gearswap failed to swap to RF set, so I only got 950 TP but still was decent.

This has been a long-time coming, but I think Dancer is the most balanced, engaging, and fun job to play in this game.

It's one of the most satisfying in that it epitomizes the notion of "horizontal progression" in FFXI. At any time, you can be fulfilling one of many roles: healer, tank, DD, support, debuffer, and often multiple simultaneously. And, of course, these roles all differ depending on whether you are soloing, lowmanning, or in a larger party, so the number of roles and options you have available at any given time is massive... and you can master each of these skills and swap between them at will. Jobs like BLU and PUP also have these options but are more-or-less locked into one set of roles per fight, since they cannot change spell-sets and automaton attachments at will. The only other job in this game that has this similar amount of horizontal progression is RDM... moreso Lv75 RDM.

For me personally, this game has always been about "breaking limits." It's even built into the story. Dancer is the job that, to me, leaves the most experimentation with this idea. The aforementioned horizontal progression means you have so many dimensions by which you can expand your capacity for difficult tasks. And one of my favorite things is breaking those limits. Can I keep up with SAMs and DRKs in my Dynamis groups? Can I solo all of the T2 Ru'Aun NMs? Can I duo Old Shuck? Can I main tank AND main heal for the avatar HTMBs? How much utility can I pack into this one party slot?

I know most of the endgame doesn't benefit from this kind of utility since the hardest content relies on pretty streamlined strategies, but it's still deeply entertaining to find ways to test your limits in this game... and Dancer is perhaps the single job best-equipped to do that.

I would love to see career dnc upload their gameplay video about the "break the limit" aspect of the job. I believe every job can do crazy things when played to max potential, but we just dont see them often enough!

I agree alot w/ this sentiment. I think there are experts w/ alot of jobs. Nuances and things you can do that a player who only uses a job occasionally, or added it to fill a role, just doesn't pick up on.

I really like seeing Ruau's job guide video's tips and tricks section for the jobs I"m not so familiar with.

I'd love to see a career Dnc show what the job can really do.

I generally agree, but I would say having a competitive mindset probably outweight "play the job often" when it comes to picking up nuances of every job :p.

Tried to guesstimate the possible updates for Empy Gear, its all just speculations.

Possible Empy Gear Upgrades

Shared Upgrades:

Stats	Updated
DEF, HP	+10 Each Update
STR,DEX,VIT,INT,MND,CHR	+5 Each Upgrade
**Acc, Attk	+20 Each Upgrade
MDB	+1 Each Upgrade
EVA, MEVA	+15 Each Upgrade

** Acc, Attk values may vary, AF Gear got Acc ++ and Relic got Attk++, best guess is, Empy will get equal amounts.

Head Special Upgrades:


Body Special Upgrades:

Hands Special Upgrades:

Legs Special Upgrades:

Feet Special Upgrades:

The Augments "Samba" effect causes attacks to do triple damage sometimes when a Samba is active. Additional pieces equipped increases the chances of this occurring.
Probability is approximately: 2 Pieces = 1%, 3 Pieces = 2%, 4 Pieces = 3%, 5 Pieces = 5%

P.S: The reason I opted for body to have WS+10%, was based off Striking Flourish, and it has the highest DEX after Empy Hands.
Also, I'm still thinking about new possible additions, based off what happened with COR, RNG double to triple or Quad Shots.