The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

Yes of course, though some multipliers are still affected by INT [Im sure you're aware of that]

Thanks again, and while you're here! I dont know how much free time you have with all the things you do to build a Sim for DNC! especially with climactic in mind.
I believe DNC is extremely underrated [by EU/US mostly] and maybe shedding more light would make things better.

I've been meaning to ask you this for quite some time knowing your list of projects here, but I thought maybe keep that in mind whenever.

In this case INT isn’t a multiplier, though. WSC and dStat are added together with a couple others then multiplied at the end by things like MAB and affinity. In the case of this WS INT is better for damage until you reach the dStat cap and then it’s exactly the same as DEX. The only advantage INT has from there is possible m.acc gains. INT is the safer stat if you’re comparing two similar numbers though in case it does contribute to the dStat term.

And yeah DNC is on my to do list, probably after BLU to make sure all the DW and main hand only code works. DNC also has things like saved dance decay I need to make work as well.

Where is war;_;

(And cor ;___;)

War I started. Corsair i still need to work out some of the ranged functions involving rapid and snap shot.

I just finished my twashtar tonight (horay for my first rema!),and I have a few questions about the job. Is the karieyh ring worth it for rudras if I'm lacking the omen rings?

I'm also wondering about Twashtar/Airy Buckler, I saw some of Byrths damage comparisons on page 30~ and it looks to be pretty competitive, especially because I don't have a perfect taming sari. Does anyone have any experience using that setup with either /war or /sam?

Thanks for the help!

Thats wonderful, and Im sure many Dancers are looking forward to it.



Congratulations on Twashtar! its a great Dagger.

The ring is pretty decent for rudra since you don't have Omen Rings. If you come to think of it you can replace Ilabrat Ring with [karieyh + Ramuh Ring +1] and still do great.

I must say though Twashtar/Airy when sub WAR is always a fun choice to have around and I use it from time to time if I'm on my own and/or fighting a "snooze" content.

When it comes to performance, yes its very impressive especially with WAR sub due to Fencer but you end up loosing all the stats the offhand daggers provide. [which is quite essential on higher content]

From my experience, sure its a valid option on all content except serious stuff XD

Side Note:
Because of Wave 3 and provided that Dancers hold the highest accuracy between 1H jobs.
And to play it safe, I toyed around with a balanced ACC/TP set on THF/NIN mobs in Dyna D and came up with this:

ItemSet 360266
Sure you can swipe more items around for the reasons I mentioned above.

I got about 1700 lines done in some spare time today, but I probably won't have climactic for it any time soon, although I do have some ideas for it. I'll probably just have saber stay at the 20% at least for now. I also need stats when /WAR and /SAM at the very least. It also won't have a nicer UI like I was trying to make work on BLU, but, whatever.

I think that's in large part due to the abundance of DD, WS Spam, and not bothering to multistepping SC in general.

Anecdotal evidence: It take me less time to solo down 1 apex crab in 1 multistep SC chain. (not even climactic ending one) then 2 DD spamming WS at 1k not linking their WS on the crab next to mine.

In general, 1 to 2 dd multi step has dps equal or greater than 3 dd unless theres sc dmg - on NM.

However certain mob mechanic such as amnesia, knock back, hate reset can interrupt multi step.

Since DD RUN and DD brd is a thing these days, Ive found that in a 6 man pt of DD run, DD, DD COR, DD BRD all spamming ws at 1000 tp is extremely fast and effective. Some of my fastest VD runs are done with the setup listed above. There are less room for error and multi step *** up, more importantly 4/6 person in pt get to DD and have fun, v.s 1-2/6 DD get to have fun in a multi step SC setup AND occassionally get interrupted because reasons.

Multi step is still a popular dd strategy for multi boxers because they can just let 1 to 2 character engage and supports all afk. But playing with real people its really hard to utilize it since nobody enjoys roll/sing and afk, nor afk tanking.

That's perfect, thank you for allocating your time for it!

I'm not worried about it being that accurate at the moment [I'm sure it will be done veridically when your time allows it]

Much appreciated!

Hume Master Dancer:

Attributes	/WAR	/SAM	/THF	/DRG	/DRK
STR	104	101	99	102	104
DEX	104	104	107	102	104
VIT	96	98	96	98	98
AGI	106	104	107	104	104
INT	91	92	95	91	95
MND	91	92	89	92	89
CHR	103	104	100	106	100

Basically WAR THF SAM are used way more than DRG DRK with THF WAR being on top.

For some odd reason and despite the obvious meta, Top Japanese players favor DNC,BLU and RUN as primary sources of DPS in almost everything they do including pure zerg.

They almost never use PLD, and their RUN is always on DPS mode whilst tanking.

From my experience with them, that "odd reason" might as well be [Skillchain Bonus] and DNC is the highest between BLU SAM in that regard.

Spike DMG from Climactic obviously is another reason.

With DNC around you're guaranteed to close a sc even in pure zerg!

Also, if I am not mistaken, please correct me if I am, job trait skill chain bonus is multiplicative with Innundation. I've seen 10k rudra's close 99k dark on apex crabs duoing with a melee rdm and a few trust (no geo, no brd, no rolls). And Innundation is also very undervalued in NA/EU.

I am curious how they handle lionheart RUN with DNC cause Radiance and Dagger don't play so well.

Absolutely agree, DNC is hands down the most underrated job in the game currently.

I'm currently working on an editorial/tutorial video on a related matter but a real strength DNC has which most people miss is that it doesn't TP feed much given it's Subtle Blow IV trait. DNC can easily cap at 50%, going to 55% with the Sherida Earring.

I've been experimenting against Omen bosses using a NIN tank/dd, MNK and DNC as DDs. The results have been very good, especially on Kin where you really want to slow down it's WS rate.

That's Marvelous Ruaumoko!!

Personally cant wait for your video to be out!

It's really great that you want to shed more light on DNC, I can definitely say that it will have a major impact along with Austar's Sim on player base!

Again much appreciated!

As far as subtle blow goes you're absolutely right, I've discussed this narrative way back with Saevel and he explained that if you combine Subtle *** it will have a major impact on the fight dynamics to a degree and as you said, many seem to miss this point or dismiss it entirely.

My point was to advocate for a subtle-blow route in doing endgame content back then. It just seemed more logical to exploit!

I'm 100% team subtle blow and I'm sure that you know how Japanese Players appreciate it as well.



Inundation operates based on the types of weapons present and since they use BLU RUN DNC or RUN NIN DNC that bonus multipier will be 1.2~

We use Inundation all the time in events, RDM is always present.


If the intention was to keep darkness skillchain going then there is no issue. Since its more logical for DNC to close.

And in pure zerg, it will always be distortion :D

Yeah DNC doesn't sacrifice "much" to cap subtle blow. An offhand taming sari, adhemar+1 head/hands and a pair of tp herc boots and you're there. Is there a better way to cap it? For the terps/twashtar users, what's the ideal subtle blow set... What would the swap be to not have to offhand sari.

Teach your WHM to love Auspice! thats 15 Subtle Blow :)
20 from SB IV
13 from Gifts [We basically become MNKs! and BG needs to update the chart of Subtle Blow :P]
15 from Auspice [without empy feet +1, 25 with feet]

That's 48, you only need 2 from Gear|Sari and Earring adds extra 5 to reach 55.
If no Auspice, then Head and Feet or Dagger are enough to cap too.[I'd choose Head+Dagger because relic feet are broken for Terp]

Think the problem there is more with the quality of your typical NA/EU player that gets assigned to support role than support jobs actually being boring to play. GEOs, CORs and BRDs should be busy pitching in with healing and secondary support actions, not just primary and AFK. But NA shells are fond of dumping their weakest players on support, so might as well AFK during battle since they are so incapable.

Whereas JP tend to put their most skilled players on support/healing roles, and assign weaker players to DPS, since DPS is relatively easier to play, even in in multistep scenarios.

Arislan pointed out a fundamental difference between Japanese and EU/US play style and dynamics.
Part of the reason why they don’t get along very well with US players in particular is due to this major factor.

To me I find it fascinating how they give so much more value to players who facilitate their jobs to the betterment of the fight.

You’re almost always going to end up doxed|listed if you play your job without it’s full potential, you must do whatever you can to pull this off and not compromise the whole thing.

[Im sure you’re aware how seriously they take things on themselves when they do a mistake and end up extremely ashamed for letting the group down]

So it’s quite natural for Top Players to cover support jobs to its maximum potential and leave the rest to organize DPS.

Its worth mentioning that Party leaders (strategists) also prefer to be on support jobs to observe everything going and communicate much more effectively due to their frame of reference.

This is probably case by case, the top JP player that I know of uses DRK WAR SAM, Ive even seen JP shout for war or 2h in ambu.

And the 1h that they prefer is often nin and blu.

I would rather consider what you mentioned about WAR in particular an anaomly.

During peak Japanese play time which overlaps with my time [EU] I’ve never seen that setup like at all.

Saw NIN DNC BLU// RUN DNC BLU// RUN NIN DNC the most.
There was the occasional DRK request though.

I wouldn’t discredit that some Japanese players are affected by US meta. I mean US meta is quite dominating over social platforms.

NIN isn't surprising, Ive seen JP shout for them too. But thats mostly because NIN WAS meta for certain ambuscade.

Never seen DNC shout otherwise, unless its piercing damage month ir something. Most of JP or hybrid pt that Ive joined has WAR DRK SAM.

WAR DRK SAM is meta because top end endgame community push max dps in full buff situations with perfect support, with no room for anything else with lower dps ceiling, even if those jobs have good utility and defensive ability. "Max dps ceiling or bust" is one thing I really have issues with in endgame community tbh.

Like just 2 days ago an accomplished player from top end community gave me 3 hr of ***fest and personal attack in PM because I promoted drk, drg and 1h DD in dyna wave 3 runs. How dare I, tell people "drg and 1h dd is a safe choice for wave 3 because reasons" when endgame players are supposed to worship drk war sam like everyone else. There was another thread with people claimed war is best dps for SL master trials even though a setup with nin instead of war can clear the BC in 35 min relatively safe.

I feel a job like dnc would really excel in lowman pt with less supports. But the way endgame community do things, defensive ability or support ability are often ignored. Our war broke 11k dps on scoreboard last woc zerg, and 11k dps is a number thats tough to match for most if not all melee DDs. Until another job that shows the ability to break 11k dps on woc, endgame community will probably continue to worship war because dps ceiling is all that matters.

I also have never seen a shout for dnc, even checking people online at all times the number of dnc never goes out of single digits on Quetz. I see like 30 thfs and 4 dnc.

I enjoy dnc but it really does not shine with the current ws spam meta the game has at the moment. Its not terrible by any means, but it feels lackluster. Too much of the job's damage is with multi step sc damage, its not like sam where even without the sc damage you can fight for top of the parse

I highly doubt that US/EU meta will last that long after REMA upgrades along with Divergence Weapons.

•Personally, I value all play styles and favor some over others!

Being involved with different groups has its perks and can safely say that by far Japanese players are the most passionate about collaborations and creating an MMO “feel” to everything they do.

Obviously, I wouldn’t put my rl friends in game in the same category [they're the most passionate for other reasons]

•US meta largely stems from players that multi-box or even prefer to be automated [provided that I do get fascinated by how they manage to pull it off] I can’t stand the obsession with max ceiling, short fights obsession, and push everything they got to score the highest points.

Thrill can come from various sources, be that of gimmicks and/or trying to clear something un-traditionally.[well atleast for me]

A win is always a win regardless of how you do it!
The only thing that is different, is how much you value interaction over monotonous brain dead clicks here and there.

The point is JP are not simply chasing after theoretical max DPS when considering party composition. As Kat mentioned, they are much more likely to spread pressure/responsibility across the alliance than to completely overbuff 2-4 players and have the backline hanging on by the skin of their teeth to keep those 2-4 players alive.

Even if they bring heavy DPS, you'll often see them subbed /DNC or /NIN so they can lessen the burden on support/healers. THFs are common because they are highly valued for their enmity controlling abilities. RNGs are almost always using Anni instead of Fomal. Etc.

JP players are reluctant to burden each other, so they are more conservative in their gear/job/sub/weapon choices overall. Instead of max DPS, they are more likely to chase max party synergy/teamwork, and value survivability/repeatability over pure power.

Under that paradigm, you can see why DNC is probably more common in JP circles than NA.

Im an NA with short fight obsession and push everything at highest potential, and I do VD speed run every month, if my speed run clears VD 10 sec slower than another group I will make cynical remarks like "this run is slow" even though its probably still faster than majority of pt. Im just THAT obsessed with min maxing when I feel like it.

That being said, ffxi isnt black and white. Just because one setup is the fastest for certain pt, doesnt mean its the most ideal for a different pt. Some people prefer to have fun with different jobs even if they ended up killing slower. Some pt NEED the dd to play defensively because their support cant handle a more offensive playstyle. And sometimes we just dont feel like having speed run at all, myself included. There are times that I just cant and dont want play very well that I prefer slower runs in a more relaxed environment.

After all we are all human, not robots. And ffxi is first and foremost a game, not a job.

I dont think theres anything wrong with aiming for most ideal and fastest setup, but theres certainly something wrong if that ideal setup become a holy bible of everything with absolutely zero flexibility nor compromise. And as a result others dont get to have fun because they are forced to play meta jobs. And I strongly believe that meta/speed runs must build on the fundation of 6/6 members are having fun with meta setups.

Meta or bust is thing I observed in endgame community over the years, unfortunately this mind set still exists, and will probably continue to exist.

While I'm not denying the differences you guys described so far between Western and Eastern players (I actually do support everything you said), at the same time I think you're hyperbolizing the differences and oversimplifying things.

There have been Western players who play in a different way, and there's a ton of:
1) JP noobs, which aren't particularly different from our most stereotyped Western noobs. Due differences, same results.
2) JPs who play not particularly different from any of us. I've been playing with a lot of JPs on Asura, ask Apollymi, and they really do not play that much different from us. (for instance we were the first group, as far as I know, who back in the day managed to reach Incursion level 144)


Overall they tend to value more team play, they come out as way less competitive and the type of arrogance they display is much different from the typical one you'd often see in an US player.
That doesn't make them saint or paragons of gameplay.
And really, with due differences there's really NOT that much distance between us.
I've been playing with JPs since 2005 and really, you'd be surprised how similar they can be, in their own way.



Aside from obvious social differences stemming from different sociocultural backgrounds, education etc, I'd say the biggest factor creating difference in FFXI is not really the social heritage (which is important, but secondary imo).
Rather the biggest key factor here is the "go with the crowd".
Once a very vew notable individuals show how a certain setup is effective, everybody will do their best to follow that setup with very small tweaks.
Until a "new" setup comes out.
This creates an (often) fake feeling of dichotomous distance were the said setup is soooo much more effective than anything else, and whatever is not that setup sucks soooo much.
Whereas, more often than not, such difference is not really THAT huge.

This is the key factor, both western and eastern players "follow the herd", the big difference is that it's two different herds.
Here we have FFXIAH, BG, Reddit.
In JP they have different communities, with different "notable" players, who sometimes come up with different meta/standard/strats.
I really think that more than anything else and before all other sociocultural heritage difference (which are important, not denying that) this is truly the key factor creating difference between players.

Sure Sechs, Afania! You have very valid points as always.

This debate stems from the question why Top Players in Japan prefer a much different approach to end game than NA/EU [aka taking DNC,NIN,RUN,BLU,THF everywhere]? and why their meta favors all the points that was highlighted in the debate so far over the NA Meta we get bombarded with on English Platforms?.

Asura is not the best example to take into account Sechs, if you want to be more reflective you can at least take a server with a healthy Japanese Majority Population then compare it to an NA one.

It was also mentioned earlier that there is no denying that we get affected by JP Meta or NA Meta on both sides so I don't think what was mentioned before by others and me falls under [hyperbole] you just happened to play countless times with Japanese on an NA server while its kind of reversed for us here.

We all agree on:

1-They value team work over anything.
2-Top Players or strategists remain on Support Roles and spend more time on coordination than anything.
3-They aren't obsessed with numbers or other NA glamour.
4-They prefer safety/survivability [MB, Ranged] and equal distribution of power/tasks over going with 2 on God Mode and the rest make sure they survive.[They avoid overburdening one over the other].
5-Their "Meta" paradigms are way more flexible than the rest.
6-Zero tolerance to [shortcuts/minimal effort/Not reading what they write before you join/Wasting other's time/Not following instructions by strategists] during fights.[You will be Doxed]

Possibly the main conclusion is, FFXI jobs are not underrated in Japanese Player Base [They totally respect every single job and report any imbalances/bugs all the time] and SE listens to them over us for that reason.

From my experience, theres pretty gigantic difference between NA and JP players, lol. I think you may not notice it because you run with a multi cultural group or na group with a few jp members, not a all jp member group with jp culture. And I think the cultural difference between a all jp group and multicultural group/na group with jp member could be huge because the decision makers arent the same.

I still recall back in 2013, brefore ilv gears released, delve was very difficult, only clearable by top end groups of the server.

At that time, my endgame linkeshell was Jp because of my timezone, but I also had friends in top end NA community so I get to experience the difference of their strategy in highest level content first hand.

In NA groups, serious players tend to utilize TONS of tool to cut down the time spent on getting clears. Almost every top end NA groups at that time used auto invite for brd rotations, some even went a step further with stun bot and GM mode/speed hack to get it done.

There were also several debate on AH with people from the top end pushing a more offensive DD like MNK or DRK in foret. whoever dare to suggest RUN for foret got attacked on forum because run wasn't strong enough and being viewed as jobs for scrubs.

By comparsion JP groups setup invite macros in /p for brd rotation, and used DD RUN almost all the time for foret. They didnt bother with tools ever, just communicate and play safe.

Some of the more creative setup like using blu for ceizak was invented by NA and it wasnt a thing in JP community. Pretty much all the jps in my shell was shocked to see how effective blu was when I show them at that time.

There were also other examples, like when I joined a zitah clear pt with all JP, the strategy that they used on endeath rabbit was kite/nuke(for a small clear pt thats not well geared, they cant just slaughter it with dps like an established aeonic group.)

In NA community a clear pt at entry level usually dont kite for that NM, so 50% of them will wipe and 50% of them will rely on every member sub nin.

Either works, but I find the kiting strategy pretty safe for a group of returning player getting clear for the first time.

If Im going to describe the difference between na and jp, I would say NA are a bit more creative about how to use certain unpopular jobs. And JP tends to stick with main stream setup a bit more.

NA tend to rely on tons of different tools, such as voice chat and add ons, many people even write their own tools. And its not just a thing in ffxi, but in general, add on/mod culture/voice chat in western games.

JPs tend to play the game as it is, and not just ffxi. Things like voice chat, add on, mod only entered jp gaming community until quite recently. I still recall in 2013 when ff14 arr just launched, jp players complained about battle system needs voice chat to communicate, when it had been a thing in western mmo raids for very long time.

I also find na like to rank player quality via individual performance as well. Individual performance one thing that I find NA players really care.

I also find how NA and JP behave in game pretty in line with how western people do jobs in real life: NAs are individual focused, creative, and utilize tools for better efficiency. JPs focus on team work and conservative gameplay a bit more.


When incursion released Asura pop wasnt THAT NA heavy, its the same as every other server.

I think the difference is NA:JP ratio.

Playing in a multicultural group with 50% NA and 50% JP will be very different from playing in an all JP group with only 2 members are NA and 30 other people are JP.

At one point my endgame ls had 2 na including myself, everyone else was jp. THAT was like living in a totally different world. A multicultural group with a few jp member wasn't even the same when it comes to their approach on things.

I thought I know how China is like after I visit China town in major NA city, but lol no, not even close.

You're missing the fact that I've been on Asura sicne 2004 and Asura, despite its latest position as Main NA/EU server, has been one of the highest JP server population after Odin for the longest time.
Things changed of course, the situation is pretty different now and has been for years, but this doesn't change that I've been on Asura since the beginning of my adventures in september 2004, and trust me there was a huge JP community and has been for quite a long time. Not anymore though, you're right 100% on that.

I can't speak about every JP of every server, I just shared my experience with JP players on Asura. Especially many years ago when there wasn't, practically, any EU LS on Asura, I could fit in much better in JP ones than NA ones. Was having a hard time standing the attitude of most of the people in those NA shells back then, plus I was studying JP and I thought why not kill 2 birds with one stone?

I've talked to a lot of JPs even about these specific topics, about how closed they tipically are towards everyone who's not JP, about how they can more often than not participate in english conversation but they tipically prefer to pretend they can't, blahblah.

Point is: while we can probably delineate a majority of people who behave in similar ways, you'd be surprised how many JP players have very divergent opinions, attitudes and habits.
Elmer The Pointy made a pretty nice questionary about JP players many years ago btw if you're curious, I remember participating in that as well.


Getting back to the topic about why most Top JP players tend to have different meta/strategies compared to us.
My answer is what I said before: follow the herd.
Some notable players decide a certain job is better than others to do thing "X", they show everybody why/how and post strategies.
Soon after other people, instead of exploring possibilities/combinations different from those already given, will simply follow those approaches with minimal tweaks.
This keeps going until another player comes up with a different Meta and surprise surprise, everybody start following that.

This happens in JP too as far as I've seen, it's just there's different actors on the stage that, often but not all of the time, decide they want to play different shows.


Many people used to report things in EU/NA as well, it's just that SE hardly ever listened to us, and most of the few times it seemed they did, it was actually the translation of a reply to a JP player who happened to ask/say the same thing.
Keep this going for years and people rightfully feel frustrated and will stop bothering.

Overall I'd say I think they have way more sense of community, less individuality (no surprise, deep social connections with these aspects) and more concerned about stuff that will damage the community or game balance. Be it exploits, third party tools etc.
This doesn't mean that they don't hack or cheat, there's several of them who do that and more often than not using their own JP-only tools rather than Windower-related stuff and similar.

Still, as far as I've seen especially during the years of "everybody botting" I'd say it's definitely less common among JP players, probably because of their "sense of community" which makes them concerned about how their individual actions might negatively affect the whole community and not just themselves.

I wouldn't dare to say they're the good guys and us the bad guys, it's just different perspectives honestly.



Oh and last but not least, I've always noticed less JP people multiboxing. There are multiboxing JP players -of course- but it's way less common and often it doesn't get seen very "well".
Not sure why things are like this. Maybe because multiboxers are often associated with cheaters or RMTs?
Maybe because, at least most of them if not all, they love being part of a community and having to depend on others, whereas a lot of NA/EU people are more like "*** that, I'm gonna make 3 accounts and solo everything, ***!" mindset?

Maybe I'm just biased, but I feel there's a connection.

I think these jobs are often overlooked, i personally prefer to have a BLU and or RUN in my zergs because while they are still competent DD they offer other things to zerg pts such as Mighty Guard, Harden Shell, Valiance, etc. They are both useful in Master Trials also. MNK and NIN are also great for various things such as Dyna-D, Master Trials. or Omen.


Ranged strats are rather nice, I do about 3/4 of Aeonics with range strat