The Last Dance II: The Show Must Go On

Well, I think you need to decide that for yourself. Like, for my part when I'm running around with Haste II at a bare minimum and the spreadsheets tell me Asperity and Rajas are #1, I often wonder if I'd be better off just full-timing DRing and Twilight Torque for all the benefit those two slots are actually providing.

The important thing, I have found, is to not bother trying to defend it.

EDIT: I guess my point is the spreadsheets are there to tell you one thing: the optimal setup for your DPS. For this purpose, they are tremendously useful. But whether optimizing your DPS in any given situation is worth it is something you need to evaluate on your own, and at some point you're dealing with a level of granularity that should throw a lot of that in doubt. That's good!

tl;dr: I don't understand what message I'm trying to convey, but I'll F9.


Sometimes I wonder if Mote has opened Pandora's Box by creating those spreadsheets, because understanding is being substituted by a file that generates numbers, depending on how we fill those selection boxes.

Those spreadsheets were created in order to be able to quantify performance under some circumstances. One of those is that mobs don't die.

Now, they do die every now and then.

Let's take the Escha example. Mobs there have 10k-ish HP, give or take. You have correctly noticed that something else that is not DPS is the relevant metric: cycle time.

(Let's completely ignore the fact that Thaumas Coat will likely do better than anything else in this particular case, because that's not part of what I am trying to get to here. Also, I did concede that Thaumas Coat is "optimal" up to some point already.)

It literally does not matter if my WS does 7k or 10k, if I've dealt 5k white damage to the target before I have 1000 TP. And yet, I've crippled that sacred number that is called DPS.

We don't even see the cycle time on the Gear sheet.

Then, there's something like deliberately WS-ing a tad later than at the 1000 TP mark for the WS to more likely kill the target. In order to not suffer from the 2s JA delay. At 1k DPS, that's "2k damage lost". That's an actual Soundsplitter Bats example for me, because an average of ~8.5k damage per optimal cycle is not enough to kill them off reliably.

There are more things like that a spreadsheet does not take into consideration. My main point during the last few days is to point out that key fact and that there's more than spreadsheets. My case in point being said Jugo HQ + Jugo NQ example, because it (apparently) minimises cycle times between two Rudra's Storms, which with the resulting Darkness seems to kill stuff consistently, within 99% accuracy. No spreadsheet could _ever_ say that line was better than the generally accepted, top DPS generating Vajra + Ipetam combo.

Long fights without changing mobs are where spreadsheets get closer to the actual performance. On the one hand, those tend to not be against fodder and on the other hand, we don't have useful stats for those. I could make up some for the sake of having some 135 target, but those wouldn't be reliable at all. But then, I can see people "optimising" towards exactly 1337 accuracy, because the spreadsheet says any more accuracy is useless, even though something might actually need 1350 accuracy.

Spreadsheets are a great tool, but the way they are utilised and being referred to rather seems like they are more something like The Bible. Or The Quran.

(Is there an analogy to Godwin's Law where it's about religions instead of Nazis?)


No. Simple version: "Optimal" TP sets can differ when using different WSs, due to whether overflown TP matters. Maybe even how much it matters. TP sets with weaker white damage but more overflown TP tend to favour Evisceration et al, whereas TP sets that have a lower average WS TP but higher white damage are more likely to favour Pyrrhic Kleos.

I'm somewhat surprised we haven't ended this with "It's my/your $12.95!" yet.

But it is!

We can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
Cause your friends dont dance and if they dont dance
Well, they're no friends of mine

Okay. I'm here to learn.

Escha Mobs, perfect.

I warp into escha, port to 6 and kill the first 4 things I came in contact with.
No trusts, no buffs, no food, no nothing.

1st mob was a primer, I killed it with a WS to ensure I'm starting the 'cycle' from the TP return of a WS, rather than 0.

Eft: 170TP at start
12 attacks for 2,484dmg
PK for 4,493dmg (6,977) (29% HP remaining on Mob)
19 attacks for 3,986dmg (10,963 total damage)

Bugard: 1,511TP at start
2 attacks for 496dmg
PK for 5,149 (5,645)
12 attacks for 2,162dmg (7,807) (30% HP remaining on Mob)
PK for 4,111dmg (11,918 total damage)

Mosquito: 414TP at start
12 attacks for 2,637dmg
CF Rudra for 11,736 (14,103 total damage)

If I weren't spamming Aeolian Edge, this is likely what my log would look like.

Now... in this comparison, we can quantify some things.
1: Regardless of what a Dnc is wearing (within reason) we're expecting roughly 12 attacks to WS.
I'm a non Terpi owner, so for me it's going to be about... (57 attacks/11,496dmg = 201.6 per hit *12 = 2,420)
12 attacks = 2,420dmg
Pyrrhic Kleos = 4,584dmg
Total = 7,004dmg

So... I guess you'd be right, 7k vs 10k WS's don't matter if you're doing 5k white damage leading up to them.
But it appears that your numbers are drastically different than mine.
So how about for those of us who deal regular damage?

Given the #'s above, is DPS relevant?
Do the spreadsheets apply to this situation?
Is this 'trivial' matter?
Does optimizing make sense here?
Will I kill mobs faster than the Dnc next to me assuming my gear is DPS optimized and his isn't?
Or will our 12hit > WS > 12hit > WS all happen in the same exact time frame, regardless of gear used?
Are these numbers moot because I had no buffs, and need to be re-done in a capped haste situation?

It's lovely that you set out to disprove my numbers without even "acknowledging" the concepts I've outlined. Maybe that's because it's difficult to spreadsheet.

I've moved to Puks (and the occassional Shadow Dragon) for slits, but for the sake of getting numbers, I went to Tarichuks (*** them Bugards, I'm too lazy to go 1/1 on popping Immanibugard with this lack of sleep) and slapped them on /SAM. With Odium + Nibiru C. I got to ~60% pretty consistently, finishing off most of them with Pyrrhic Kleos. Completely solo, no outside buffs. I could reproduce similar results on my (for my standards) gimp THF/DNC alt, finishing off with Evisceration somewhat consistently. I guess I happened to have optimal sets for both attempts. Or I have been very, very lucky with crits over the course of 30-ish mobs.

If anything, I'm guilty of claiming my white damage was 5k, when in reality it's closer to 4.5k or so.

But those results were not to be reproduced, anyway, because exact numbers were not my goal. If you are absolutely set to use this Escha example, head to Puks.

So in short:


* "DPS" is relevant to some extent.
* Whether spreadsheets are relevant, that depends on what you want to know.
* Trivial is whatever you consider trivial.
* Optimising gear is less relevant than optimising processes, the weaker whatever you stab is, because wasting time means wasting more "DPS".
* DNC e-peen contests depend on the DNC next to you, unless gear is vastly different.
* This is not representative, but when I swap from Rawhide D to Thaumas, my average cycle time apparently is shorter by 4/60 = 1/15 = 0.067 seconds. Conclusions are up to you.
* Haste cap matters less than e. g. Qultada's Chaos Roll, which lets me pull off the "TP with some overflow, then WS move" mentioned above on Soundsplitter Bats. (Feel free to prove this is not the optimal line.)

I did not set out to disprove your numbers, I set out to quantify(mostly to myself) DPS/Overkill/Trivial relative to the initial numbers we discussed in the post(s) prior, regarding 'Escha' and the DPS difference of X/sec for Y/hr.

Basically what you're saying is, if you spam WS at 1k tp, you're doing it wrong, right? How we play, has a larger effect on our Dmg than what we wear.

So can we open a discussion on the best way to 'play' the job? Maybe talk about some strategies, or details of how to do it in different situations? Which WS's benefit the most from different levels of TP. Should we be altering our gear, to match this style of play. Is there a node for 'I just leveled Dnc to 99 in abyssea but have no clue how to play it' because after being away for so long, I feel like it's probably something I would benefit from, as the game(and the job) seems to have changed rather drastically in my absence.

I'm just saying spamming WS at 1k TP is not always the best line, which in turn means spreadsheets are not necessarily reflecting all real-life situations. On a mob that lives "long enough", WS-ing at 1k TP should be the best line, unless you're going for double CF Rudra's, maybe.

Changing subjects a little bit, i'd like to know if any of you tried to check if Job Points Category for Waltz Potency counts towards the 50% cap or if they are aside that number. I'm considering it because i'm capped @ 50% with gear plus 10% from JP, so it's probable i'm losing potential here.

Waltz Potency merits literally add 2 base potency per Waltz (so 3 HP with +50% potency).

tl;dr: I just went out to check numbers. It's added to the value before "Waltz potency" (similar to the Afflatus Solace JP category on WHM), so it's not contributing to the 50% cap of "Waltz potency".

Setup (I just grabbed enough gear to cap Waltz potency, because lazy):

172 VIT (on another target, to not have that +6% Waltz received potency kick in)
182 CHR
+50% Waltz potency

Curing Waltz III, observed: 832 HP
Curing Waltz III, maffs: 1.5 * (0.75 * (172 + 182) + 270 + 20) HP = 1.5 * (265 + 270 + 20) HP = 832.5 HP

Curing Waltz IV, observed: 1236 HP.
Curing Waltz IV, maffs: 1.5 * (172 + 182 + 450 + 20) HP = 1236 HP

Edit: Byrth beat me and I didn't F5 before posting!

So gear potency work as % whereas JP adds to base stats. Got it.
I just hope that's not SE messing with descriptions again and forgetting to put the "%" in the end.

When I did those quick tests, I noticed something weird though: It seems like the Waltz received potency+ effect from Maxixi Casaque +1 does not kick in!

Curing Waltz III, observed: 835 HP
Curing Waltz III, maffs without the received bonus: 1.5 * (0.75 * (175 + 182) + 270 + 20) HP = 1.5 * (267 + 270 + 20) HP = 835.5 HP

Curing Waltz IV, observed: 1240 HP
Curing Waltz IV, maffs without the received bonus: 1.5 * (175 + 182 + 450 + 20) HP = 1240.5 HP

brb, buying an Asklepian Ring to test ***with...

Edit: Asklepian Ring does not work either. On both self-Waltzes and "external" Waltzes. Does someone feel like posting that on OF, please? >_>

Edit #2: Actually, let me test if it's different from Cure Potency received in that this is not a separate multiplier, but being added to the Waltz Potency multiplier (and therefore being subject to the 50% cap).

131 VIT
158 CHR
Potency of "Waltz" effects received +9%
"Waltz" potency +41%

Curing Waltz III, observed: 759 HP
Curing Waltz III, maffs: 1.5 * (0.75 * (131 + 158) + 290) HP = 759 HP

Yep, they're both adding to the same (single) term that is subject to the +50% cap.

Each JP adds 3hp to all tier waltzes, this with 50% potency + 9% potency II, kinda shitty.

Wait what, so the Waltz received thing is currently broken? *.*

Someone was asking in our ls if the waltz thing was broke like the whm cap thing we thought might be a bug Sechs..I told him he should test it..idk if he has. Maybe this is separate issue though..idk I am tired and just saw waltz thing broke and reminded me of that.

No idea if broken or works as intended. I would have expected it to work like Cure potency and Cure received potency, but this is SE we're talking about.

As is, you pretty much just add up Waltz potency and Waltz received potency. Then, you cap that sum to 50%. It kinda makes sense this way, too, but it's just... unexpected.

No. I clearly remember an SE post when they changed something years ago, and there were 2 different caps.
One for potency and another separate cap for the received (which was lower, 30 or something, I don't remember).

This was also tested by players and proved to work that way, to a certain extent at least since "received" items do not exactely come in large quantities.
Years ago it was totally working that way. If something changed along the way and wether it's intended or a bug I have no clue...


Gonna go dig on BG to see if I can find the original post I was talking of.

Yes, that's how the Cure received potency thing works.

Before "recently" (over 1.5 years ago, yeaaaaaaah), we haven't had more than Asklepian Ring. I don't even remember if we had enough Waltz potency gear back then to actually cap and see if it's 1.03 * 1.5 = 1.545 Waltz potency. Outside Campaign, that is. So no idea if Waltzes worked the same as Cures for this purpose.

If you find that post on BG, yay! \o/

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20089-dev1076-Healing-Adjustments

This sounds strange to me. Bug report maybe Skudo?

Does anyone have a function for self waltz?

Thank you!

So, how do I report a bug... >.>

Go to the bug report forum and use the specific form, strictly answering all the plethora of questions which make no sense for your report.
Also put the link I gave you as reference.

By function meaning?


On the off chance you just mean the gearset:

I'm having issues getting Maculele +1 Hands to work for skillchains. Just spent last few days getting Tiara to work, and some random other scripts for climactic, excessive TP, cap tp set, presto etc, but not sure how the hands are suppose to work.

Can anyone copy paste theirs? I'm using Mote's base file.
Looks like this, but I delete this, and climactic works without it, and as mentioned SC pending doesn't trigger the gear, so maybe this needs to be scrapped regardless.

Also, are all scrips of a specific 'type' suppose to be combined?
For example... should all scripts that begin with:
function job_post_precast(spell, action, spellMap, eventArgs)
be part of a single script rather individually split into 2-3?

Function just like the one not working for you but with waltz, if waltz on me equip 1 set if waltz on others equip another set.

The other potential interpretation for what they said is:
(Waltz Potency + Waltz Received Potency)*(M*X+B)

You would need to test with a combined potency value over 50% to see if it's still subject to the 50% cap. They could have independently capped both terms at 50% and still added them together before the associated multiplication step.

That's how it works right now; 50% potency with the +6% received on Maxixi +1 still ended up fitting perfectly in the formula when using 1.5 as a multiplier. We get 1.5 for when it's +51%/+6%, +51%/+9%, and +41%/+9%. Which makes me think that they are additive and have a total cap of +50%.

Unless I totally didn't get your point, due to lack of sleep.