Gear Discussion/Help SAM

Okay for acc:

Hagun/Pole Grip
Tiphia
W turban
Chiv chain
Brutal
Fowling
Askar
Dusk gloves
Acc ring(+5)
Rajas
Amemet+1
Swift
B haidate
Fumas

That's an average SAM build(imo) that maintains a 6 hit. With 8/8 GKT merits they have 78% acc WITH Hasso so 80% is close enough I suppose.

The important thing is that people understand that unless they have the right gear/merits askar is not the right choice.

Funny how that ends up right on 78% since that's kind of the point where the Iki build starts to fail, lol. (Don't reach capped acc with zanshin)

Amazing, I've seen so many SAM rolling around in that ACP body with Store TP+4 on it, I began to think Askar Korazin had the same. That was totally my fault, and WHOOPS.

I still think people aren't understanding the point of this derail though, and that's why I was worried about the idiots thinking it's pro-askar. They just can't see the point of what we're talking about in the first place, so they jump to conclusions.

78% accuracy on what? I don't think your numbers are right. With no food, and that setup on Greater Colibri, it's 80.3% as Hume male with 68+20 DEX. It actually does drop about to 78% as Elvaan male though, so that's where race comes into play.

I'm Elvaan :x

But no PCC? I realized I screwed up on the Store TP of Askar Korazin, so Chiv. Chain isn't needed. Just that alone is going to bring you up to 82.8% as Hume, and just above 80% as Elvaan.

I used C chain because I don't see PCC as an "average player" item.

Like I said before right now I mainly use Sam in campaign. (events I am forced to RDM!) I keep 2 sets with me. I use Haub/Hachifeet for things where acc is important. I use Askar/Saru for survivability/solo mainly. I tried both sets earlier and found the -20 eva made me take a ton more dmg in campaign. I switched back to my askar set and was evading occasionally which helps IMO. Sure I missed sometimes, but that doesn't bother me if I can stay alive alone.
I think there are places for both sets tbh. I see the serious sams' point. I agree that haub is best for end-game ***like HNMs, merit parties, and Salvage/Limbus, etc, but I think there's a place for Askar, too.
I mainly use Onimaru/Pole, Shigeto, PCC, Swift, Foragers, Ecphoria/Rajas, Fowling/Brutal, Askar head/body/hands, Byakko, and Saru kyahan. (ws; champion's galea, warwolf, snow/flame gorgets, triumph/brutal, flame/rajas, shura pants, askar feet)
I keep Haub and hachiman feet with me. I have Dusk, but movement speed is so goddamn annoying I don't use them. I'll take 5dex/8eva at the cost of 1% haste in most circumstances.
Atm I don't have Bushi or GKT merits, but for what I do this works just fine. I will probably merit gkt a bit, but keep Suppa. If there's one piece I wish I had it's Usu feet, but I've never done salvage.
Finishing overwhelm then I plan to L4 Blade bash and L1 Shiki. I thought about Iki, but if I meritted it at all I'd only L1 it prolly. I prolly won't bother at all. I would think for it to be useful you'd need 5/5 Zanshin merits and that's just not realistic in my view.

If DA procs before Zanshin then there's no need to modify the original calculations. If DA procs first, then out of 1000 attack rounds with 17% DA rate, you'd have 1170 total non-Zanshin attacks, which is exactly the expected value, instead of 1166.6 attacks. Also somewhat supported by the fact that Double Attack was put into the game before Zanshin.

As such, I'll go with the simpler version and just assume that DA procs before Zanshin. That way I can just let the calculations stand.

The DA number itself is fine, it's just that out of those 1170 total attacks, only 830 of those should be eligible for zanshin. For TPing, you're you're essentially keeping it at 1000, and for melee dmg, I think you're actually counting zanshin on DA's even (1170).

Ahh, I've had it for 4 years so I didn't really think about it. I've only been playing for 4 and a half, so yeah. lol... BCNM's are awesome.

Last update to this I promise! (unless I get flamed again)

Bored at work and I went and googled about zanshin/iki in english just to see what's been said about it and I realized there's a rather important inaccuracy about it just about everywhere I've checked. (The two people I've talked to about this personally also had the same misconception)

Each Iki merits gives you +3 TP per zanshin, however it's not +3 TP to your final TP, it's +3 TP to your base TP which means that STP also gets applied to the zanshin TP. So for say Hagun and Tomoe with 4 and 5 merits respectively.

Incorrect
(11.5)*1.46+12=28.7
(13)*1.54+15=35.0

Correct
(11.5+12)*1.46=34.31
(13+15)*1.54=43.12

This probably still won't change the minds of most people out there, but I at least want people to have the right information when making their decisions.

4-hit Tomoe with capped Iki you say!? lol Yes it's only a percentage chance and would mean capping Iki, but I'm personally considering it. Definitely putting at least a single merit into Iki to hopefully cover any Pentas where full TP isn't returned.

Thanks again, Taro.

Ok, redoing all the math with exclusionary factors for DA vs Zanshin.

Assuming DA procs before Zanshin

1000 swings
17% DA rate
40% Zanshin rate
95% acc
950 connected swings
of those, 161.5 DA'd, and 153.425 of the DAs hit
50 missed
of the 50 missed, 8.5 DA'd (8.075 of which hit)
Of the remaining 41.5, 16.6 Zanshin'd
Of the Zanshin, 15.77 hit

Totals:
Hits: 950 + 161.5 = 1,111.5 (95% of base + DA'd swings)
Misses: 58.5 (5% of base + DA'd swings)
Zanshin attempts: 16.6, 1.66% of base rate
Zanshin rate: 40% * (100% - DA%)

Therefore --

TP set (high accuracy)

Hauby (95% acc, 17% DA):
Zanshin rate: 40% * (100% - DA%) = 33.2%
Avg Hits' worth of TP per round: (95% * 1.17) + (2 * (.05 * 33.2%) * 95%) = 1.1115 + 0.03154 = 1.14304

Askar (88% acc, 19% DA):
Zanshin rate: 40% * (100% - DA%) = 32.4%
Avg Hits' worth of TP per round: (88% * 1.19) + (2 * (.12 * 32.4%) * 95%) = 1.0472 + 0.073872 = 1.12107

Gear haste:
Hauby: 17%
Askar: 20%

Hauby: 1.14304 / .83 = 1.377
Askar: 1.12107 / .80 = 1.401

Askar by 1.7%

Support haste:
Hauby: 43%
Askar: 46%

Hauby: 1.14304 / .57 = 2.005
Askar: 1.12107 / .54 = 2.076

Askar by 3.5%

TP set (moderate accuracy)

Hauby (87% acc, 17% DA):
Zanshin rate: 40% * (100% - DA%) = 33.2%
Avg Hits' worth of TP per round: (87% * 1.17) + (2 * (.13 * 33.2%) * 95%) = 1.0179 + 0.082004 = 1.09990

Askar (80% acc, 19% DA):
Zanshin rate: 40% * (100% - DA%) = 32.4%
Avg Hits' worth of TP per round: (80% * 1.19) + (2 * (.20 * 32.4%) * 95%) = 0.952 + 0.12312 = 1.07512

Gear haste:
Hauby: 17%
Askar: 20%

Hauby: 1.09990 / .83 = 1.325
Askar: 1.07512 / .80 = 1.344

Askar by 1.4%

Support haste:
Hauby: 43%
Askar: 46%

Hauby: 1.09990 / .57 = 1.930
Askar: 1.07512 / .54 = 1.991

Askar by 3.2%

***** Summary on TP ******
Askar ahead by 1.4% to 1.7% with gear haste alone, and 3.2% to 3.5% with Haste + March. Askar does just a tiny bit better at the higher accuracy point due to the Hauby's accuracy not being worth as much, but the difference is pretty minimal. So your base accuracy should not be a consideration in designing for this build.
**************************

Melee Set

Hauby: +14 acc (10 acc + 5 dex, assumed rounded up), +4 str (hachiman)
Askar: +4 att (5 dusk + 2 askar - 3 hachiman), +2 DA, +3% haste (dusk)

+4 str gives +1 fStr; assuming hagun and +5 fStr to start with.
+4 att is worth approximately 1.0% melee damage, long-term.

Melee (high accuracy)

Hauby: ((95% * 1.17) + ((.05 * 33.2%) * 95%)) * (81/80) = (1.1115 + 0.01577) * 1.0125 = 1.14136
Askar: ((88% * 1.19) + ((.12 * 32.4%) * 95%)) * 1.01 = (1.0472 + 0.036936) * 1.01 = 1.09498

Gear haste:
Hauby: 17%
Askar: 20%

Hauby: 1.14136 / .83 = 1.375
Askar: 1.09498 / .80 = 1.369

Hauby by 0.4%

Support haste:
Hauby: 43%
Askar: 46%

Hauby: 1.14136 / .57 = 2.002
Askar: 1.09498 / .54 = 2.028

Askar by 1.3%

Melee (moderate accuracy)

Hauby: ((87% * 1.17) + ((.13 * 33.2%) * 95%)) * (81/80) = (1.0179 + 0.041002) * 1.0125 = 1.07214
Askar: ((80% * 1.19) + ((.20 * 32.4%) * 95%)) * 1.01 = (0.952 + 0.06156) * 1.01 = 1.02370

Gear haste:
Hauby: 17%
Askar: 20%

Hauby: 1.07214 / .83 = 1.292
Askar: 1.02370 / .80 = 1.280

Hauby by 0.9%

Support haste:
Hauby: 43%
Askar: 46%

Hauby: 1.07214 / .57 = 1.881
Askar: 1.02370 / .54 = 1.896

Askar by 0.8%

***** Summary on Melee ******
Hauby is ahead by 0.4% to 0.9% with gear haste alone, while Askar is ahead by 0.8% to 1.3% when support haste is added. Hauby again does better in the lower accuracy situation, to a larger degree than before.
*****************************

Overall balance, assuming a 60/40 weaponskill/melee split:

High accuracy:
Gear haste: Askar by 0.86%
Support haste: Askar by 2.62%

Moderate accuracy:
Gear haste: Askar by 0.48%
Support haste: Askar by 2.24%

And this is strictly calculated with full Ikishoten and Zanshin merits? I just worked 10 hours so I can't read all that. My eyes hurt.

I'm under the impression it's currently stock Zanshin, which is assumed to be 40% for this test and 4/5 Ikishoten merits, based on 450 delay GK.

Caiyuo is correct. Assumed 4 Ikishoten merits and a 40% Zanshin rate.

For personal verification, just did a quick informal test in Campaign.

Sam/Dnc, No Brutal, no Pole Grip [ie: no DA]

Terra staff (no staff skill)

100 dex, +54 acc

Marinara Pizza +1 (used in Salvage earlier)

Hand-counted totals (not complete, since I started keeping tabs a little ways in): 30 Zanshin attacks on 72 misses, for a 41.67% Zanshin rate.

Parsed rate (should include all attack rounds): 38 Zanshin attacks on 89 misses, for a 42.7% Zanshin rate.

In addition, my melee accuracy was 29.03%. I'm pretty sure my acc should have been floored even with the gear I had. Should do another run without all the acc gear and see if it still goes over 20%. If so, that supports the idea of an acc boost on Zanshin attacks.

For the record, it did seem that Zanshin procs had a better hit rate than normal swings.

Actually, just realized I can figure out the Zanshin hit rate of the first test from the data I have.

45 hits, 110 misses. 89 misses were initial swings, so 21 misses were Zanshin misses. Given 38 Zanshin attacks, hit rate on Zanshin swings was 45%. Hit rate on non-Zanshin swings was 24%.

Upper end of base hit rate with margin of error is 33%. Lower end of Zanshin rate with margin of error is 29%. So while the two values aren't strictly separable with this test, it does look like Zanshin provides the alleged accuracy boost.

For the supposed +25%:

100 dex is 75 acc; +54 acc is 129; *1.3 for pizza is 167. 25% of 167 is 42. +42 acc would be +21% hit rate. Difference in my parsed hit rate between non-zanshin and zanshin was 21% (24% to 45%). Subject to misc uncertainties, etc.

[Unless Tarowyn meant a flat 25% addition to hit rate (ie: +50 acc); that's certainly also well within reasonable uncertainty range.]

Nah, 25% boost to your to your total accuracy is more in line with what other testing has shown and is the generally accepted value among JP's.

Edit:
Actually, looking at it more, previous testing seems like it's somehow a 25% bonus to your previous acc like 60% acc * 1.25 = 75%, which is also how we've been calculating. Seems kind of weird in the, I'm not sure how they'd be programming it, but 25% to total accuracy just seems like to much. Like if I'm running around in regular gear at 75 with I dunno, 375ish acc or something, zanshins would be getting a 93 = 46% acc boost which is just TOO much, lol. Would seriously never miss on zanshins.

Well, this brings a lot into a new light, but I'm not going to change my merits for it. I still don't view it as superior in the things I do. But then again, I might throw a merit or two into Iki just to cover my polearm usage.

Yeah I didn't really expect everyone to jump on the bandwagon or anything anyways, lol. Just get tired of hearing the whole lolzanshin, "gearing to miss" crap all the time so wanted to take the chance to get some more knowledge out there.

Hmm has Tarowyn finally prevailed? lol

I do notice zanshin proc a lot when i miss and 9/10 of those have been hits, so i did think about doing the iki merits.

However, with SAM being my main job, having longer blade bash/shikoyo timers in endgame isn't worth it to me, although it does look interesting to try out one day.

By the way, has anyone taken into consideration the effect of zanshin rate+ merits and their effect on these calculations?

Its nice to hear other ideas about meriting/gearing instead of hearing the same old "you must wear this and do that or else you fail" *** all the damn time.

Honestly, I'm not going to even consider Zanshin merits, because Store TP merits and Meditate recast should not be left under max. I don't care how good this has proven to be, you would be losing out in a big way should you let either of those fall. Store TP is not an option to not fully merit, you're holding yourself back from easily obtaining a 6-hit with mediocre gear by having that fully merited. I could see an argument for Meditate recast, but over a longer period of time, you'd probably lose out on a great deal of TP. Let's just compare unmerited to fully merited, over a 30 minute fight, shall we?

Over the time of 30 minutes, you would get 10 meditates in without any merits. Assuming you have Myochin Kabuto and Saotome Kote, you would range between 140-180 TP per meditate. I realize 180 has been only documented rarely, but I've seen it myself and can vouch for it's existence. It's most likely 140-160TP, which seem to be about 50/50 to be fair. Let's just round that off to 150 TP per meditate, so you'd obtain 1500 TP, or if you WS every time you get 100, 15 weapon skills.

Now with full recast merits, you would get 2 more meditates in, for a total of 12. 12x150=1800. That's 3 more weapon skills in the time of 30 minutes alone. Imagine that in the scale of a merit party, which can last multiple hours. I think you see what I'm getting at. Unless your accuracy is just plain terrible, I'm not seeing Zanshin merits being anything other than counterproductive.

Celestina, couldn't help but look at your item sets on your page... Why do you TP in Chiv. Chain but WS in Justice Torque? >_>

Lol most of those gear sets are old made them months ago. My current tp set is up to date, i actually ws in snow gorget and don't have justice torque yet, and no I wouldnt use justice to ws in lol I've done reading on gorgets since i made that ws set ;)

Ok then, I was gonna say. rofl

Yeah, I would never ever recommend getting Zanshin merits, lol. The jump from 40%->45% is just too fractional.

I was thinking the same when looking at Zanshin merits gave more credence to me originally thinking it was 10% just because it seems fairly useless to dump 5 Group 1 slots into Zanshin for a tiny-*** jump on an already ginormous activation rate. lol

ok, just hit 70SAM

Quick question.

Which piece of hachiman would be most beneficial to me? (I really only have the gil for 1 piece at the moment >.>)