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Does islam require forced conversions?
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 14:57:28
When America gets money out of Politics, the world will experience a new age unlike any before it.
If I could ask for just one thing, it would be a return of true democracy in the United States.
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By Asura.Vinedrius 2014-09-23 14:58:00
The summary of this thread so far: several Muslims who manages to keep their cool against all the mocking and lots of anti-theist youtube links...
I have noticed that when someone wants to start a debate regarding Islam, people gets in line to mock our beliefs, but when the subject is something about the other two, you don't really see any Muslim do the same.
Do you want to know why? We accept Jesus and Moses as prophets of God and believe it or not, we have utmost respect for them and their teachings, although we believe that their teachings were degenerated in time.
I don't mean to say everyone is like that, but no matter the subject, when it is about Islam, it is only a matter time before someone starts calling our prophet names and describes Islam as barbaric.
tl,dr; Have some respect...
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:00:56
the private schools are I worked at are religious nonprofit campuses. They aren't bad to work for, are they? They're not bad. Just like any other school just have a religious theme to it. Like prayer in the morning and stuff. Of course since they're private they have pretty high tuition rates considering its for grades k - 12. Like $4~8k/year or semester.
It wasn't a bad work environment, just felt kinda cult-ish (then again i'm not really religious) ~ one was a lutheran school the other catholic That's actually not bad at all.
The private school (not religious either) near my house costs $15k per semester to attend.
Supposed to be the best in the area too. All they produce is bullshiting snobs imo.
15K/Semester?!
that's expensive even for the UAE! Do you have three semesters or 2 over there?
Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-09-23 15:00:57
Don't worry we hate jews and catholics too.
I'm not sure what our position on hinduists is, I'll call for an atheist meeting to discuss it.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 15:03:21
15K/Semester?!
that's expensive even for the UAE! Do you have three semesters or 2 over there? 2 semesters.
tl,dr; Have some respect... When respect is given, sure.
Don't worry we hate jews and catholics too.
I'm not sure what our position on hinduists is, I'll call for an atheist meeting to discuss it. According to the minutes of the last meeting, we don't "dislike" hinduists, but if you see one, you need to punch them in the nuts.
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By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:03:39
The summary of this thread so far: several Muslims who manages to keep their cool against all the mocking and lots of anti-theist youtube links...
I have noticed that when someone wants to start a debate regarding Islam, people gets in line to mock our beliefs, but when the subject is something about the other two, you don't really see any Muslim do the same.
Do you want to know why? We accept Jesus and Moses as prophets of God and believe it or not, we have utmost respect for them and their teachings, although we believe that their teachings were degenerated in time.
I don't mean to say everyone is like that, but no matter the subject, when it is about Islam, it is only a matter time before someone starts calling our prophet names and describes Islam as barbaric.
tl,dr; Have some respect... Sup Turkiya! Gogo Recep! When you guys gonna get more involved and sort this ***out we have happening here? lol
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:04:38
Don't worry we hate jews and catholics too.
I'm not sure what our position on hinduists is, I'll call for an atheist meeting to discuss it. Why are Protestants excluded from that club?
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By Asura.Triffle 2014-09-23 15:10:09
The summary of this thread so far: several Muslims who manages to keep their cool against all the mocking and lots of anti-theist youtube links...
I have noticed that when someone wants to start a debate regarding Islam, people gets in line to mock our beliefs, but when the subject is something about the other two, you don't really see any Muslim do the same.
Do you want to know why? We accept Jesus and Moses as prophets of God and believe it or not, we have utmost respect for them and their teachings, although we believe that their teachings were degenerated in time.
I don't mean to say everyone is like that, but no matter the subject, when it is about Islam, it is only a matter time before someone starts calling our prophet names and describes Islam as barbaric.
tl,dr; Have some respect... Sup Turkiya! Gogo Recep! When you guys gonna get more involved and sort this ***out we have happening here? lol
I know how you all feel. People mock Pixieism as well. I genuinely believe the universe was created by Pixies and we were sneezed out by them as we are 11,904 years ago. When I mention my beliefs people look at me with a strange look and tell me my lord and savior Oberon the High King Pixie doesn't exist...
Valefor.Mithano
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By Valefor.Mithano 2014-09-23 15:30:09
With regards to the OP: Same question is commonly raised, here is your answer:
Quote: "Absolutely not. Firstly, the hadith as you present it is mistranslated. It does not say, “I was ordered to kill…”, rather it says, “I was ordered to fight.” There is a huge difference between the two words. Killing (qatl) is one-directional, whereas fighting (qital) implies mutuality, i.e., that there are two sides fighting each other. [Dr. Bouti, Jihad fil Islam]
Moreover, this hadith does not apply to all non-believers: the word “people” (nas) used in the hadith is restricted by other texts of the Qur’an and sunna, and is therefore understood to refer only to Arab polytheists. For more information on this hadith and related matters, please see this answer:
Quote: "“I was ordered to fight people…”
One well-known hadith that is often misunderstood is as follows:
“I was ordered to fight people until they bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; establish the ritual prayer; and pay almsgiving. So if they do that, their lives and wealth are safe from me, except for a right recognized in Islam. Their accounting, however, will be with Allah.” [Bukhari, Muslim]
Unfortunately, this text is often grossly misinterpreted as calling for continuous “holy war” against all non-Muslims until and unless they become Muslim. But examination of context and scholarly interpretation reveals that the hadith by no means refers to all people and is not calling for any sort of war, holy or unholy. The key to understanding the hadith, then, is to understand who exactly is meant by the word “people” in the statement, “I was ordered to fight people.”
This same hadith has various narrations as recorded by different hadith scholars. Imam Nasa’i's narration reads: “I was ordered to fight the polytheists” rather than the word “people,” and it is an established principle in hadith methodology that various narrations of the same hadith serve to clarify its actual meaning. Hence, the narration of Imam Nasa’i indicates that the word “people” in the first narration does not refer to all people, but rather a specific group of people, namely, certain polytheists. This understanding is confirmed by both the Qur’an and the Sunna, as many incidents in the life of the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] clearly show that all of humanity was not intended in the hadith.
This understanding is also confirmed by our codified legal tradition, which is a reflection of the Qur’an and Sunna. Imam Abu Hanifa and his legal school limited this hadith to only the polytheists among the Arabs. And Imam Malik and his legal school limited it to only the Quraysh tribe among them. [Ibn Battal, Sharh al-Bukhari]
That is to say, according to both schools of law, all non-Arabs are excluded from the hadith – whether polytheists, atheists, Jews, Christians, or otherwise. Among the Arabs, any group that does not worship idols are also excluded, whether Jews, Christians, Magians, or otherwise. Only Arab polytheists – or perhaps just the tribe of Quraysh among them – were being addressed by the Messenger [peace and blessings be upon him]. Incidentally, the Hanafi and Maliki schools historically and up to today have constituted the vast majority of the Muslim world.
Imam Kasani, the eminent 6th-century Hanafi jurist, explains that the reasoning of this position is based on the difference between Arab polytheists and all other peoples, including People of the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians, Arab or non-Arab] and non-Arab polytheists. With respect to peoples other than Arab polytheists, it is hoped that by mutual coexistence between them and Muslims, they will be drawn to Islam after reflecting over the beauty of the religion and its Sacred Law [shari'a]. [f: And that hope is sufficient; whether they become Muslim or not is irrelevant to the Hanafi and Maliki perspective that they are not addressed by the hadith.]
The nature of Arab polytheists, however, was to reject anything that conflicted with their customs and traditions, deeming all else to be madness and worthy of scornful ridicule. They were a people – as repeatedly mentioned in the Qur’an – that refused to reflect over anything but “the ways of their forefathers.” Therefore, because the Messenger of Allah [peace and blessings be upon him] was from their same tribe and knew them intimately, he gave them no option but acceptance of Islam or fighting [f: And this statement, of course, was after years of being oppressed by those Arab polytheists].
[Kasani, Bada'i al-Sana'i]"
Nice reading! Ah, the power of a word. Next time I see Muhammad, I'll remind him to be more clear with what he says.
Caitsith.Zahrah
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By Caitsith.Zahrah 2014-09-23 15:30:10
Not finished backreading this clusterfuck, but...
Denying that the women's condition is at its worst in places of islamic culture is preposterous.
Please share the comparative report of the female condition that has made this preposterous - (do you know what that word means?)
I'd say not being able to identify as your biological gender because of cultural preferences to male children is just one example I can think of off the top of my head right now.
EDIT: And I'm not saying that this is indicative of all of Islam.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 15:31:50
Not finished backreading this clusterfuck Don't bother.
Blazed still won't admit that he was defending Dubai's idiotic post from earlier....
/sadface
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:31:59
With regards to the OP: Same question is commonly raised, here is your answer:
Quote: "Absolutely not. Firstly, the hadith as you present it is mistranslated. It does not say, “I was ordered to kill…”, rather it says, “I was ordered to fight.” There is a huge difference between the two words. Killing (qatl) is one-directional, whereas fighting (qital) implies mutuality, i.e., that there are two sides fighting each other. [Dr. Bouti, Jihad fil Islam]
Moreover, this hadith does not apply to all non-believers: the word “people” (nas) used in the hadith is restricted by other texts of the Qur’an and sunna, and is therefore understood to refer only to Arab polytheists. For more information on this hadith and related matters, please see this answer:
Quote: "“I was ordered to fight people…”
One well-known hadith that is often misunderstood is as follows:
“I was ordered to fight people until they bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; establish the ritual prayer; and pay almsgiving. So if they do that, their lives and wealth are safe from me, except for a right recognized in Islam. Their accounting, however, will be with Allah.” [Bukhari, Muslim]
Unfortunately, this text is often grossly misinterpreted as calling for continuous “holy war” against all non-Muslims until and unless they become Muslim. But examination of context and scholarly interpretation reveals that the hadith by no means refers to all people and is not calling for any sort of war, holy or unholy. The key to understanding the hadith, then, is to understand who exactly is meant by the word “people” in the statement, “I was ordered to fight people.”
This same hadith has various narrations as recorded by different hadith scholars. Imam Nasa’i's narration reads: “I was ordered to fight the polytheists” rather than the word “people,” and it is an established principle in hadith methodology that various narrations of the same hadith serve to clarify its actual meaning. Hence, the narration of Imam Nasa’i indicates that the word “people” in the first narration does not refer to all people, but rather a specific group of people, namely, certain polytheists. This understanding is confirmed by both the Qur’an and the Sunna, as many incidents in the life of the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] clearly show that all of humanity was not intended in the hadith.
This understanding is also confirmed by our codified legal tradition, which is a reflection of the Qur’an and Sunna. Imam Abu Hanifa and his legal school limited this hadith to only the polytheists among the Arabs. And Imam Malik and his legal school limited it to only the Quraysh tribe among them. [Ibn Battal, Sharh al-Bukhari]
That is to say, according to both schools of law, all non-Arabs are excluded from the hadith – whether polytheists, atheists, Jews, Christians, or otherwise. Among the Arabs, any group that does not worship idols are also excluded, whether Jews, Christians, Magians, or otherwise. Only Arab polytheists – or perhaps just the tribe of Quraysh among them – were being addressed by the Messenger [peace and blessings be upon him]. Incidentally, the Hanafi and Maliki schools historically and up to today have constituted the vast majority of the Muslim world.
Imam Kasani, the eminent 6th-century Hanafi jurist, explains that the reasoning of this position is based on the difference between Arab polytheists and all other peoples, including People of the Book [i.e., Jews and Christians, Arab or non-Arab] and non-Arab polytheists. With respect to peoples other than Arab polytheists, it is hoped that by mutual coexistence between them and Muslims, they will be drawn to Islam after reflecting over the beauty of the religion and its Sacred Law [shari'a]. [f: And that hope is sufficient; whether they become Muslim or not is irrelevant to the Hanafi and Maliki perspective that they are not addressed by the hadith.]
The nature of Arab polytheists, however, was to reject anything that conflicted with their customs and traditions, deeming all else to be madness and worthy of scornful ridicule. They were a people – as repeatedly mentioned in the Qur’an – that refused to reflect over anything but “the ways of their forefathers.” Therefore, because the Messenger of Allah [peace and blessings be upon him] was from their same tribe and knew them intimately, he gave them no option but acceptance of Islam or fighting [f: And this statement, of course, was after years of being oppressed by those Arab polytheists].
[Kasani, Bada'i al-Sana'i]"
Nice reading! Ah, the power of a word. Next time I see Muhammad, I'll remind him to be more clear with what he says. =) he was very clear with the word. Problem is, translations often lead to misunderstanding.
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:32:41
Not finished backreading this clusterfuck Don't bother.
Blazed still won't admit that he was defending Dubai's idiotic post from earlier....
/sadface Which post? The one about the rape that happened in UAE and the girl was sentenced to prison time?
Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-09-23 15:33:08
The real issue that cause war in the world are politics so let's try to fight and remove every politicians (except Putin, that dude right here just want peace and protect his people)
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 15:33:27
Not finished backreading this clusterfuck Don't bother.
Blazed still won't admit that he was defending Dubai's idiotic post from earlier....
/sadface Which post? This one that I asked you no less than 5 times
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 15:34:42
The real issue that cause war in the world are politics so let's try to fight and remove every politicians (except Putin, that dude right here just want peace and protect his people) I'm.....actually for that. Except the Putin part.
I wouldn't mind a little housecleaning in Washington DC....and when I say housecleaning, I really mean a 10 ton nuke planted right on the White House lawn.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 15:41:20
Oh, and if there is any NSA spying going on.....
........I'm really Nikolce........yeah....
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-23 15:42:21
The real issue that cause war in the world are politics so let's try to fight and remove every politicians (except Putin, that dude right here just want peace and protect his people) One of the few world leaders that can't be bought. The Saudis tried on multiple occasions and failed miserably.
By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:49:47
Ah the part about the muslim world having less rapes than the western world?
Well, as Dubai understands it, yes. He is right. As you understand, no he is wrong.
EDIT: Half my post was lost - In short, there is too much rape everywhere. No society is free of it. I also understand why Sweden can be shown to have a higher rape rate than other countries, much to Sehachan's disappointment probably.
Not finished backreading this clusterfuck, but...
Denying that the women's condition is at its worst in places of islamic culture is preposterous.
Please share the comparative report of the female condition that has made this preposterous - (do you know what that word means?)
I'd say not being able to identify as your biological gender because of cultural preferences to male children is just one example I can think of off the top of my head right now.
EDIT: And I'm not saying that this is indicative of all of Islam.
That is DEFINITELY not ok. If they had even the BASIC understanding of the religion (understanding of Arabic and able to read the Quran) they would know this.
While we are on the topic of gender issues - In Islam we don't have 1 term to describe all types of homosexuals.
Born Homosexual =/= Adult onset Homosexuality.
I'll leave it at that and let you read about it as I am doing so myself. I'm still unfamiliar on the several positions and not going to pretend to know or be an authority on this.
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By Blazed1979 2014-09-23 15:55:02
Kingofnobody is going to get us all a one-way ticket to gitmo :O!!!
I'm done with this thread, goodbye people.
Leviathan.Chaosx
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By Leviathan.Chaosx 2014-09-23 16:00:10
Kingofnobody is going to get us all a one-way ticket to gitmo :O!!!
I'm done with this thread, goodbye people. Gitmo is easy to escape, just ask Harold and Kumar, lol.
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Bahamut.Milamber
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By Bahamut.Milamber 2014-09-23 16:03:04
Ah the part about the muslim world having less rapes than the western world?
Well, as Dubai understands it, yes. He is right. As you understand, no he is wrong.
EDIT: Half my post was lost - In short, there is too much rape everywhere. No society is free of it. I also understand why Sweden can be shown to have a higher rape rate than other countries, much to Sehachan's disappointment probably.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:04:45
Ah the part about the muslim world having less rapes than the western world?
Well, as Dubai understands it, yes. He is right. As you understand, no he is wrong.
EDIT: Half my post was lost - In short, there is too much rape everywhere. No society is free of it. I also understand why Sweden can be shown to have a higher rape rate than other countries, much to Sehachan's disappointment probably. That is a nonanswer!
How can he be right and wrong at the same time on the same data? His methodology is completely bogus and his reasoning is way off. Even his calculation of the number of rape cases in Sweden is incorrect (according to his calculation, Sweden should have had 6,650,000 rape cases in 2013, since 66.5 times 100,000 = 6,650,000).
How can you actually defend his methodology and reasoning when it is completely and obviously wrong?
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-09-23 16:09:20
So basically what I learned from 8 pages of diarrhea is that end of the day you should respect people based on actions rather than what comes out of their mouths.
You're religious, I'm not. We have a metaphysical disagreement.
Can I sit down and talk to you respectfully?
Are you a decent person?
Do you show respect for others?
Are you honorable, truthful, caring, kind, thoughtful and/or intellectually stimulating?
Can you respect the will of others?
Are you trustworthy?
Do you further the cause of peace?
All of this ***transcends religion. When we can sit down at the table of brotherhood and agree to disagree, then we've finally gotten somewhere. Bogged down in the rules and regulations of a religion (that are pliable and open to interpretation) mean little beside how you operate in society.
Are you an ***?
Do you routinely deride others?
Are you a liar, thief, abuser or intellectual dullard?
Do you believer others should bend to your will?
Are you ready to use war as a means of getting across your ideals?
Do you show little regard for the person sitting across from you?
Then we have a problem and it transcends religion.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:11:07
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »So basically what I learned from 8 pages of diarrhea is that end of the day you should respect people based on actions rather than what comes out of their mouths.
You're religious, I'm not. We have a metaphysical disagreement.
Can I sit down and talk to you respectfully?
Are you a decent person?
Do you show respect for others?
Are you honorable, truthful, caring, kind, thoughtful and/or intellectually stimulating?
Can you respect the will of others?
Are you trustworthy?
Do you further the cause of peace?
All of this ***transcends religion. When we can sit down at the table of brotherhood and agree to disagree, then we've finally gotten somewhere. Bogged down in the rules and regulations of a religion (that are pliable and open to interpretation) mean little beside how you operate in society.
Are you an ***?
Do you routinely deride others?
Are you a liar, thief, abuser or intellectual dullard?
Do you believer others should bend to your will?
Are you ready to use war as a means of getting across your ideals?
Do you show little regard for the person sitting across from you?
Then we have a problem and it transcends religion. I....actually agree with this fully.
Doesn't matter what religion you are in, as long as you don't try to force it on to me!
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Bismarck.Ihina
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By Bismarck.Ihina 2014-09-23 16:12:58
However, feel free to force other people's sex lives to conform to your religion. That's a-okay.
Lakshmi.Zerowone
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By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2014-09-23 16:16:03
the private schools are I worked at are religious nonprofit campuses. They aren't bad to work for, are they? They're not bad. Just like any other school just have a religious theme to it. Like prayer in the morning and stuff. Of course since they're private they have pretty high tuition rates considering its for grades k - 12. Like $4~8k/year or semester.
It wasn't a bad work environment, just felt kinda cult-ish (then again i'm not really religious) ~ one was a lutheran school the other catholic That's actually not bad at all.
The private school (not religious either) near my house costs $15k per semester to attend.
Supposed to be the best in the area too. All they produce is bullshiting snobs imo.
15K/Semester?!
that's expensive even for the UAE! Do you have three semesters or 2 over there?
Thats nothing, check the rates for USC in So.CA.
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Quetzalcoatl.Maldini
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By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-09-23 16:16:11
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »So basically what I learned from 8 pages of diarrhea is that end of the day you should respect people based on actions rather than what comes out of their mouths.
You're religious, I'm not. We have a metaphysical disagreement.
Can I sit down and talk to you respectfully?
Are you a decent person?
Do you show respect for others?
Are you honorable, truthful, caring, kind, thoughtful and/or intellectually stimulating?
Can you respect the will of others?
Are you trustworthy?
Do you further the cause of peace?
All of this ***transcends religion. When we can sit down at the table of brotherhood and agree to disagree, then we've finally gotten somewhere. Bogged down in the rules and regulations of a religion (that are pliable and open to interpretation) mean little beside how you operate in society.
Are you an ***?
Do you routinely deride others?
Are you a liar, thief, abuser or intellectual dullard?
Do you believer others should bend to your will?
Are you ready to use war as a means of getting across your ideals?
Do you show little regard for the person sitting across from you?
Then we have a problem and it transcends religion. I don't think me or my bro or dubai or any other muslims were saying otherwise.
I got home late tonight and was catching up and reading and then going to post more but I'm also a bit worried about Kingofnobody's post. For the record, I do not have anything to do with that and oppose it vehemently.
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-09-23 16:17:09
However, feel free to force other people's sex lives to conform to your religion. That's a-okay. Nope.
There is no question that many people have been killed by those who wish to convert others to their religion. It's not just Muslims killing Christians, it has happened for just about every religion out there.
Specifically about islam, though, I'm trying to understand more about what various religious writings have. From what I can find, there are statements from Muhammad that both dictate forced conversion as well as statements that dictate leaving others in peace.
For example, here's a statement that appears to be forcing conversion: Quote: Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."
And here's one that says leave people alone: Quote: I shall exempt them from that which may disturb them; of the burdens which are paid by others as an oath of allegiance. They must not give anything of their income but that which pleases them—they must not be offended, or disturbed, or coerced or compelled. Their judges should not be changed or prevented from accomplishing their offices, nor the monks disturbed in exercising their religious order, or the people of seclusion be stopped from dwelling in their cells.
Are these really just contradictory messages? I know religious questions are effectively impossible to answer, so I'd like to phrase things this way: Are Muhammad's writings 100% for forced conversion, 100% against, or do they give conflicting advice?
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