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Obamas war without congress approval
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:23:01
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D Then you're doing a pisspoor job of it lately, then again a derail like this hasn't happened in some time.
Too bad I already ate my popcorn.
Oh come on, even god rested on the 7th day!
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:23:21
its not about religion anymore. its about creationists versus evolutionists at this point. ok, you're just outright delusional or severely ignorant at this point...
Because you're saying "religious nonsense" vs "scientific theories" at this point, which is just laughable to compare.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:23:35
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D Then you're doing a pisspoor job of it lately, then again a derail like this hasn't happened in some time.
Too bad I already ate my popcorn.
Oh come on, even god rested on the 7th day! Which god? :P
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:24:06
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D Then you're doing a pisspoor job of it lately, then again a derail like this hasn't happened in some time.
Too bad I already ate my popcorn.
Oh come on, even god rested on the 7th day! Which god? :P
The god formally known as god, or something, I wasn't really paying attention.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:24:57
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard. I'm not an Atheist. Strike one. Yeah even if I were religious I'd still call this guy a loon, I just don't believe in hogwash.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:25:18
Jassik you just applied a correlation that makes me giggle, thank you.
Jet, pleasing you is my only motivation on this forum :D Then you're doing a pisspoor job of it lately, then again a derail like this hasn't happened in some time.
Too bad I already ate my popcorn.
Oh come on, even god rested on the 7th day! Which god? :P The god formally known as god, or something, I wasn't really paying attention. Thor then, got it.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:28:48
I've always loved this meme.
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Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 22:32:00
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard. I'm not an Atheist. Strike one.
What are you then? I just hope that what you think you are actually matches the dictionary definition, unlike Jet.
Edit: Missed a word there.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 22:33:01
Clarify that post for me, lol. I'm not quite sure what you said.
I'm an agnostic.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:36:26
see this is how out of touch atheists are with how evolved the non-denomination church going community has become. YOU PROVE MY POINT BY TRYING TO ARGUE TEXTBOOK DEFINITIONS. you don't understand what the creationists viewpoint is from a non-denomination standard. I'm not an Atheist. Strike one.
What are you then? I just that what you think you are actually matches the dictionary definition, unlike Jet. There's more than one dictionary definition, and popular =/= right, but while we're on the subject:
More non-atheists consider atheist to mean actively not believing in a god, while most most actual atheists (not your definition, aka more broad definition) just don't have a belief, instead of believe there isn't one.
But you (like others) just want to categorize atheists as "just as crazy" as religious people, so I don't see the point in arguing this with you as you will never concede as it destroys your position.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 22:39:56
My point is RELIGION IS DEAD in the eyes of non-denomination community. yes by definition their're all still religious i get it.. but you aren't taking in the new viewpoint that has become anew.
Its about creationists versus evolutionists at this point in the eyes of many. you either believe we're *** monkeys with no solid proof of evolution, or you can believe in something without seeing. how is it that something so amazing as life, came from nothing? for me it is easier to believe there is a higher power then the monkey theory
believing in a higher power makes me by definition religious, but I'm saying you all are out of touch with how religious people have sense changed and view themselves. There-go the word though it applies by definition; does not apply to the current non denomination movement in this country. which by and large is the majority.
Aethists are the ones so attached to things. they can't fathom the fact that we came from something higher. that they need to forge some evolution theory. The geometrics of life didn't just happen by random chance. it makes more sense that the amazing properties of life came from something higher and not by swirling balls of gas.
just saying all this because this forum has too many monkey theorists without view from the other side.
and my view is that you need to educate yourself about how american christians have changed from practicing rules and standards by which to live by, too just living and letting live. believing and helping people as humanitarians that have something else to offer if your interested. if by definition that makes them religious then so be it. Just dont hurl around the word religion like it has any meaning too the current non-denomination higher power non-rule regulating organizations.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:41:32
I'll clarify:
You consider all atheists to be on the top right when the overwhelming majority are on the bottom right, and you know this and still go on with it, it's intellectually dishonest, and quite frankly at this point I'm about to just start to chalk it up to trolling.
Most theists I've met are on the top left (well claim to be, they've yet to actually "prove" anything outside of their own circular logic).
I've yet to meet a self claiming gnostic atheist however, but they would just be just as loony as any other person claiming to know something without proof.
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
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By Cerberus.Tikal 2014-09-15 22:41:36
It's not new.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:42:08
I'm delusional and talking crazy talk, and don't understand a lick of science and dare to call other people stupid got it, nobody is going to take your insanity seriously, quite honestly here: go check yourself in to the nearest mental hospital, I fear for your safety and those around you.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:47:11
My point is RELIGION IS DEAD in the eyes of non-denomination community. yes by definition their're all still religious i get it.. but you aren't taking in the new viewpoint that has become anew.
Its about creationists versus evolutionists at this point in the eyes of many. you either believe we're *** monkeys with no solid proof of evolution, or you can believe in something without seeing. how is it that something so amazing as life, came from nothing? for me it is easier to believe there is a higher power then the monkey theory
believing in a higher power makes me by definition religious, but I'm saying you all are out of touch with how religious people have sense changed and view themselves. There-go the word though it applies by definition; does not apply to the current non denomination movement in this country. which by and large is the majority.
Aethists are the ones so attached to things. they can't fathom the fact that we came from something higher. that they need to forge some evolution theory. The geometrics of life didn't just happen by random chance. it makes more sense that the amazing properties of life came from something higher and not by swirling balls of gas.
just saying all this because this forum has too many monkey theorists without view from the other side.
and my view is that you need to educate yourself about how american christians have changed from practicing rules and standards by which to live by, too just living and letting live. believing and helping people as humanitarians that have something else to offer if your interested. if by definition that makes them religious then so be it. Just dont hurl around the word religion like it has any meaning too the current non-denomination higher power non-rule regulating organizations.
TL:DR - I don't like being grouped in with other Christians.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 22:47:29
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:49:46
I find it hilarious that he thinks most are just arguing about their delusional creationist views versus established science, he dares accuse us of being out of touch?
Not to mention the old fashioned "monkey" line, I dare almost say he's also trolling.
Obligatory:
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By Kooljack 2014-09-15 22:49:58
you yourself agree that religion has a derogatory reference, thereby having taken on some new or underlying assumption about its meaning.... hence the changing of our language before our own eyes. just like how we say, "thats so sick" when we mean cool etc all those double meanings does change the way we use language over time. it is always changing. the meaning of words are not always confined to the dictionary's definition. DERRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
THE origional bigger conversation was ignored by me, correct. YAY monkey
just annoyed with atheists viewpoints splattered everywhere without any real understanding of how american believers might feel about your word choice to describe them.
religion has turned into something negative, so im against aethists splattering their viewpoints while using the word to describe believers
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-09-15 22:51:51
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I have to admit, if nobody brought up religion around me, I'd basically never think of it, but when someone starts attributing easily explainable things to "god", I get a little perturbed. Mostly for the fact that people have worked tirelessly to figure things out, and when you claim that "god did it", it is tantamount to waiting for someone to build a giant construction, then saying "god built it, you didn't do crap".
I'm more annoyed with people injecting religious sentiment into completely secular things like I need them to explain the world to me, or like a religious person has x-ray vision and sees things I could never see.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 22:53:23
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I too can get along with stupid people, shocker. Stop getting so hung up on a synonym for obtuse.
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By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 23:00:36
you yourself agree that religion has a derogatory reference, thereby having taken on some new or underlying assumption about its meaning.... hence the changing of our language before our own eyes. just like how we say, "thats so sick" when we mean cool etc all those double meanings does change the way we use language over time. it is always changing. the meaning of words are not always confined to the dictionary's definition. DERRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
THE origional bigger conversation was ignored by me, correct. YAY monkey
just annoyed with atheists viewpoints splattered everywhere without any real understanding of how american believers might feel about you
A dictionary is merely a tool in which we use to reference what words mean, but your "definition" is so far abstract it's not even real, and quite frankly the opposite of what you're trying to say.
Religion has a lot of negative connotations, due to it's ugly history and even current presence, and that's not limited to organized religion, nor it's oppressive nature.
Your "bigger" conversation is so far fetched and not even accurate that nobody with a brain knows where to begin with it, there's factual argument against the scientific theory of evolution, just as there's no factual argument against the scientific theory of gravity, if there were then it would tear it to shreds and we'd create a new scientific theory based on what we find.
Creationism has no merit, it's pure fantasy, and holds no and deserves no respect. I don't honestly give a damn how religious people feel about me, nor should I. But you can't change the fact that you are religious by definition, nor hold even some of those very negative aspects of that regardless of whether or not we use that word to define you or not, it's irrelevant as this conversation.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 23:03:15
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I too can get along with stupid people, shocker. Stop getting so hung up on a synonym for obtuse.
Stupid? Obtuse? My good sir, if I have to lower myself to match intelligence with you to be considered smart, I'll take stupid and obtuse any day.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 23:05:31
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I have to admit, if nobody brought up religion around me, I'd basically never think of it, but when someone starts attributing easily explainable things to "god", I get a little perturbed. Mostly for the fact that people have worked tirelessly to figure things out, and when you claim that "god did it", it is tantamount to waiting for someone to build a giant construction, then saying "god built it, you didn't do crap".
I'm more annoyed with people injecting religious sentiment into completely secular things like I need them to explain the world to me, or like a religious person has x-ray vision and sees things I could never see.
I mostly have an issue with people resorting to beliefs over facts basically at the start. Or those who try to give credibility to faith healing, mystics, acupuncturists, chiropractors, or other pseudoscience that has little to no credible merit.
Or people who's first reaction to something odd happening being "a ghost did it" or "the place is haunted" instead of trying to figure out what caused something. Door creaked? faulty foundation? lights flickered? poor cycles in your power? etc.
I even personally believe a few things that don't have much if any merit behind them, but I keep those to myself and rarely talk about them, one of which turns out to have had some merit behind it, but is shakey now due to some other evidence, but I'm ok with that.
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-09-15 23:05:47
you yourself agree that religion has a derogatory reference, thereby having taken on some new or underlying assumption about its meaning.... hence the changing of our language before our own eyes. just like how we say, "thats so sick" when we mean cool etc all those double meanings does change the way we use language over time. it is always changing. the meaning of words are not always confined to the dictionary's definition. DERRRPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
THE origional bigger conversation was ignored by me, correct. YAY monkey
just annoyed with atheists viewpoints splattered everywhere without any real understanding of how american believers might feel about you
A dictionary is merely a tool in which we use to reference what words mean, but your "definition" is so far abstract it's not even real, and quite frankly the opposite of what you're trying to say.
Religion has a lot of negative connotations, due to it's ugly history and even current presence, and that's not limited to organized religion, nor it's oppressive nature.
Your "bigger" conversation is so far fetched and not even accurate that nobody with a brain knows where to begin with it, there's factual argument against the scientific theory of evolution, just as there's no factual argument against the scientific theory of gravity, if there were then it would tear it to shreds and we'd create a new scientific theory based on what we find.
Creationism has no merit, it's pure fantasy, and holds no and deserves no respect. I don't honestly give a damn how religious people feel about me, nor should I. But you can't change the fact that you are religious by definition, nor hold even some of those very negative aspects of that regardless of whether or not we use that word to define you or not, it's irrelevant as this conversation.
glad someone else gets it...
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 23:06:04
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I too can get along with stupid people, shocker. Stop getting so hung up on a synonym for obtuse.
Stupid? Obtuse? My good sir, if I have to lower myself to match intelligence with you to be considered smart, I'll take stupid and obtuse any day.
Says the guy who got teabagged in port Jeuno earlier, not to mention that you're ignoring the very strong statistical evidence in the generalizations, but the truth is hard for some people to swallow.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 23:07:22
I get along just fine with agnostic theists.
You say you get along with gnostic theists, and yet anytime any mentions being religious you have to be right there calling them stupid.
I too can get along with stupid people, shocker. Stop getting so hung up on a synonym for obtuse.
Stupid? Obtuse? My good sir, if I have to lower myself to match intelligence with you to be considered smart, I'll take stupid and obtuse any day.
Says the guy who got teabagged in port Jeuno earlier.
LOL. I screamed in your face before that, but I think you win that one.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 23:07:58
Attaching groups of people to the word religion by definition is correct but is by the current MODERN times also implied as a deragatory cult-like meaning underlying it. THERE-GO the believing community finds your mannerism offensive. politically, dictionary correct, but offensive. and in my opinion belligerent and ignorant by not knowing the modern underlying derogatory association that comes with labeling believers as religious cults. And then also knowing that the believing community knows and believes the same thing you do about its double meaning, aka cult. you shouldn't be prone to just openly categorize people underneath it.
just like the word gay. have some enlightenment about the words evolutionary underlying meaning. because if there is a huge community who believe the word is outdated to be even used even though the dictionary definition can't be denied, do you still use it? No you don't you wipe.
By Kooljack 2014-09-15 23:11:10
I'm not arguing facts, nor trying to persuade you. I'm saying atheists mannerism is offensive because you're ignorant with how non-denomination Christians think
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-09-15 23:13:17
not to mention that you're ignoring the very strong statistical evidence in the generalizations, but the truth is hard for some people to swallow.
Pulling the stats card with me? Risky move, young Padawan.
By Jetackuu 2014-09-15 23:13:41
Attaching groups of people to the word religion by definition is correct but is by the current MODERN times also implied as a deragatory cult-like meaning underlying it. THERE-GO the believing community finds your mannerism offensive. politically, dictionary correct, but offensive. and in my opinion belligerent and ignorant by not knowing the modern underlying derogatory association that comes with labeling believers as religious cults. And then also knowing that the believing community knows and believes the same thing you do about its double meaning, aka cult. you shouldn't be prone to just openly categorize people underneath it.
just like the word gay. have some enlightenment about the words evolutionary underlying meaning. because if there is a huge community who believe the word is outdated to be even used even though the dictionary definition can't be denied, do you still use it? No you don't you wipe.
Actually organized religions have fit the definition of a cult for a long time, that has nothing to do with "modern times." You guys can find it offensive all you want, it's called reality, stop being a bunch of babies. It's not derogatory to call a religious person religions...
I've never met a religious person before who's had an issue with me calling them religious, and I used to go to church, and know people that still do, but have fun with that.
I also know some gay people and they don't have an issue with me calling them gay, or outright *** at times, so stop being such a giant *** baby when you're so delusional about the world you've constructed your own warped view where somehow you think that religious people shouldn't be called religious because they don't like being associated with what they've done over the years.
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Quote: Can Obama wage war without consent of Congress?
WASHINGTON (AP) — On the cusp of intensified airstrikes in Iraq and Syria, President Barack Obama is using the legal grounding of the congressional authorizations President George W. Bush relied on more than a decade ago to go to war. But Obama has made no effort to ask Congress to explicitly authorize his own conflict.
The White House said again Friday that Bush-era congressional authorizations for the war on al-Qaida and the Iraq invasion give Obama authority to act without new approval by Congress under the 1973 War Powers Act. That law, passed during the Vietnam War, serves as a constitutional check on presidential power to declare war without congressional consent. It requires presidents to notify Congress within 48 hours of military action and limits the use of military forces to no more than 60 days unless Congress authorizes force or declares war.
"It is the view of this administration and the president's national security team specifically that additional authorization from Congress is not required, that he has the authority that he needs to order the military actions," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said. He said there were no plans to seek consent from Congress. "At this point we have not, and I don't know of any plan to do so at this point," he said.
The administration's tightly crafted legal strategy has short-circuited the congressional oversight that Obama once championed. The White House's use of post-9/11 congressional force authorizations for the broadening air war has generated a chorus of criticism that the justifications are, at best, a legal stretch.
"Committing American lives to war is such a serious question, it should not be left to one person to decide, even if it's the president," said former Illinois Rep. Paul Findley, 92, who helped write the War Powers Act.
As a U.S. senator from Illinois running for president in 2007, Obama tried to prevent Bush's administration from taking any military action against Iran unless it was explicitly authorized by Congress. A Senate resolution Obama sponsored died in committee.
Nearly seven years later, U.S. fighter jets and unmanned drones armed with missiles have flown 150 airstrikes against the Islamic State group over the past five weeks in Iraq under Obama's orders — even though he has yet to formally ask Congress to authorize the expanding war. Obama told the nation Wednesday he would unleash U.S. strikes inside Syria for the first time, along with intensified bombing in Iraq, as part of "a steady, relentless effort" to root out Islamic State extremists. Obama has not said how long the air campaign will last.
The White House has cited the 2001 military authorization Congress gave Bush to attack any countries, groups or people who planned, authorized, committed or aided the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Earnest on Thursday described the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force, generally known as the AUMF, as one that Obama "believes continues to apply to this terrorist organization that is operating in Iraq and Syria."
The Islamic State group, which was founded in 2004, has not been linked to the 9/11 attacks, although its founders later pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden. In February, al-Qaida declared that the Islamic State group was no longer formally part of the terror organization. And in recent weeks, senior U.S. officials, including Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Matthew Olsen, head of the National Counterterrorism Center, have drawn significant distinctions between al-Qaida and the Islamic State group.
Earnest said Thursday that Obama welcomes support from Congress but that it isn't necessary. "The president has the authority, the statutory authority that he needs," Earnest said.
Others disagreed.
"I actually think the 2001 AUMF argument is pretty tortured," said Rep. Jim Himes, D-Conn., who serves on the House Intelligence Committee. "They are essentially saying that ISIL is associated with al-Qaida, and that's not obvious," Himes said, using an alternate acronym for the Islamic State group. "Stretching it like this has dangerous implications."
Himes supports a new congressional vote for a specific IS group authorization, as does another Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, Rep. Adam Schiff of California.
There is wariness even from some former Bush administration officials. Jack Goldsmith, head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel under Bush, said in the Lawfare blog that "it seems a stretch" to connect the Islamic State group to al-Qaida, considering recent rivalry between the two groups.
The White House also finds authorization under the 2002 resolution that approved the invasion of Iraq to identify and destroy weapons of mass destruction. That resolution also cited the threat from al-Qaida, which Congress said then was operating inside Iraq. But the U.S. later concluded there were no ties between al-Qaida and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein or his government, and the group formally known as al-Qaida in Iraq — which later evolved into the Islamic State group — didn't form until 2004, after the U.S.-led invasion.
Obama is using both authorizations as authority to act even though he publicly sought their repeal last year. In a key national security address at the National Defense University in May 2013, Obama said he wanted to scrap the 2001 order because "we may be drawn into more wars we don't need to fight." Two months later, Obama's national security adviser, Susan Rice, asked House Speaker John Boehner to consider repealing the 2002 Iraq resolution, calling the document "outdated."
Obama has asked only for congressional backing to pay for the buildup of American advisers and equipment to aid Syrian opposition forces. House Republicans spurned a vote on that separate request earlier this week, but Boehner is now siding with the administration. The White House acknowledged it could not overtly train Syrian rebels without Congress approving the cost of about $500 million.
Since U.S. military advisers went into Iraq in June, the administration has maneuvered repeatedly to avoid coming into conflict with the War Powers provision that imposes a 60-day time limit on unapproved military action. Seven times, before each 60-day limit has expired, Obama has sent new notification letters to Congress restarting the clock and providing new extensions without invoking congressional approval. The most recent four notifications have covered the airstrikes against the Islamic State group that began Aug. 8.
An international law expert at Temple University's Beasley School of Law, Peter J. Spiro, described the letters as workarounds that amount to "killing the War Powers Act with 1,000 tiny cuts."
Former Sen. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., who now heads the Lugar Center for foreign affairs in Washington, said Obama could ask for congressional approval in a way that would be less formal than a specific war resolution — perhaps either as an appropriations request or a simple resolution.
"It may not be the most satisfactory way to declare war," Lugar said. "But it may be a pragmatic compromise for the moment."
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